Vanguard Vs. Assault Squad

[LardO'Blood]

The other day I played assault marines for the first time, I had a great experience (1 casualty and I took out a huge squad of gaunts. They got killed by a carnifex and friends later though). Now I can't decide whether I want to get vanguard or assault marines, I want vanguard but I'm not sure if they are worth the points.

[Allerka]

Vanguard with jetpacks are borderline overpriced. With any further upgrades, they ARE overpriced. While you can certainly tweak them out, I can only recommend them in Apocalypse or overly large games where you have points to burn.

 

On the other hand, if you want to take them withOUT jetpacks, and give them a couple power weapons or whatever, and a transport, they're not too bad if you keep them supported, but Terminators can generally fulfill the same roll better anyway.

[hazardousZERO]

In my experience with assault squads there OK in large numbers (10) or with a IC such as a Chaplin attached too them. I have yet too use vanguard vets but next time i play i plan on using some with Shrike attached too them. The squad I'm going too take is a SGT with thunder-hammer, 2 with power swords and 3 with bolt pistol and chainsword. Ill let you know how it goes.

[Cadarn]

I love my Assault Troops. I run with a ten man squad in every game, and have been known to use two. Stick a jump pack Chaplain in there and they're even better. A full squad on the charge can lay down some serious hurt on almost any unit in the game. They are great against low initiative mobs and I tend to use mine as a counter assault unit or an escort for my Land Raider.

 

Vanguard are tricky and, strangely, very different beasts from normal Assault Troops. Where Assault Squads are hammers, Vanguard are scalpels. If you just send them in against an enemy then they will be toast. I know a lot of people don't like their heroic intervention rule as the risk of scatter is too great. This can be minimised with Homing beacons. Drop Pods or Scout Bikes are very good for this. Get the pod or the bikes close enough and then pray for some decent reserve rolls.

 

Personally I wouldn't bother using them against anyone other than Necrons or MEQ, and I'd even have second thoughts over the latter. Against Necrons they can be great. Drop a pod in place or even a few around the board, and then keep the power weapon equipped Vanguard in reserve. You can then deep strike them in where needed and, assuming you are playing it safe and using the homers, you have a good chance of inflicting some major hurt on those space zombies. That said, you still need a decent amount of luck to pull that off.

 

If you're debating which of the two to buy then I'd say go with the Assault Squad and make sure its ten men strong. Ten Marines, two flamers, and one power fist come in at under 250 points and can deal with pretty much anything. Flamers for the hordes, Krak grenades and power fist for the light to medium armour and then Melta bomb for heavy armour. Some people prefer Plasma pistols to flamers, and I'd say its down to personal choice. I have two units, one with plasma pistols and one with flamers. Both have their strengths and weaknesses so its really down to how you want to use them (and which models you find cooler :lol:)

 

You will get far more use and success out of a ten man assault squad than you will with a five man Vanguard squad.

[kaiserstole20]

I pair a 10 man assault squad with a jump pack chaplain or jp captain w/relic blade almost every game these days. The chaplain is better for adding to the killiness of the squad but the captain is also very killy and opens up the command squad. If it's 1500 points or more I consider the captain otherwise it's always the chaplain.

[Cadarn]

I pair a 10 man assault squad with a jump pack chaplain or jp captain w/relic blade almost every game these days. The chaplain is better for adding to the killiness of the squad but the captain is also very killy and opens up the command squad. If it's 1500 points or more I consider the captain otherwise it's always the chaplain.

 

Of course, if you wanted to go bonkers then you could add both. :D

[ShinyRhino]

I really like my Assault Squad. I have a 10-man unit, with a powerfist, one flamer, and one plasma pistol. I like to keep themin reserve and jump them onto the table from the board edge later in the game. I find they tend to show up on time, and are capable of putting a dent in most anything that ends up in my deployment zone.

 

I like the IDEA of the Vanguard, but as has been said, they're just so expensive! Cadarn had it right; they're a scalpel unit. The Heroic Intervention rule gives them a shot at dropping deep inside enemy lines and cutting down a crucial unit, like a Company Command Platoon, Tau Pathfinders, or a Big Mek with Shokk Attak Gun and Lootas. It's risky, though.

 

One way to mitigate the risks of the scattering Vanguard is to take Shrike as your HQ. His Fleet USR allows your Vanguard to run on arrival, and still get off that Heroic Intervention charge.

 

The trick to arming the Vanguard seems to be balancing killpower with the need to stay stuck in for at least a turn. Sure, you can drop them behind the lines, gut the enemy unit, and then get shot to pieces since every gun in the army will focus on you. Oops! Too many power weapons, and you carve through in one round of combat, and are sitting ducks. Too few, and you're bogged down and taking counter assaults.

[Shen Al'ahn]

@ Shiny Rhino: If you add Shrike to a Vanguard unit they lose Heroic Intervention as he doesn't have the rule. Doesn't make much sense but, there you go.

[LardO'Blood]

Thanks for all the feed back guys! I think Im going for a 10 man assault squad with 2 flamers and 8 bolt pistol / chainsword combos.

Slightly Off Topic: Are there any painting guidelines for assault squads? (I know theres the crossed arrows sign on their [right?] shoulder)

[kaiserstole20]

I pair a 10 man assault squad with a jump pack chaplain or jp captain w/relic blade almost every game these days. The chaplain is better for adding to the killiness of the squad but the captain is also very killy and opens up the command squad. If it's 1500 points or more I consider the captain otherwise it's always the chaplain.

 

Of course, if you wanted to go bonkers then you could add both. :lol:

 

I've thought about that but when I take a command squad I like to pair it with a librarian with GoI. 4x plasma guns, a plasma pistol on the librarian, and a 24" movement rate can really mess with an opponent.

[Grey Mage]

No powerfist?

[hazardousZERO]

Thanks for all the feed back guys! I think Im going for a 10 man assault squad with 2 flamers and 8 bolt pistol / chainsword combos.

Slightly Off Topic: Are there any painting guidelines for assault squads? (I know theres the crossed arrows sign on their [right?] shoulder)

 

 

What are you going too give your SGT? I recommend ether a power weapon or a power fist. I like both but he loses his Initiative with the fist. Whatever you do don't give your SGT a plasma pistol that way he cant kill himself. (I have bad luck with my plasma wielding SGT)

[Allerka]

Thanks for all the feed back guys! I think Im going for a 10 man assault squad with 2 flamers and 8 bolt pistol / chainsword combos.

Slightly Off Topic: Are there any painting guidelines for assault squads? (I know theres the crossed arrows sign on their [right?] shoulder)

 

 

What are you going too give your SGT? I recommend ether a power weapon or a power fist. I like both but he loses his Initiative with the fist. Whatever you do don't give your SGT a plasma pistol that way he cant kill himself. (I have bad luck with my plasma wielding SGT)

Mine usually kicked butt with his. Though, I haven't used an Assault Squad in years now, as they lack sufficient killing power for me.

 

But yeah, definitely take a power fist on the Sergeant, otherwise you're just gonna bounce off walkers, MCs, and vehicles and waste points.

[Bannus]

Vanguard with jetpacks are borderline overpriced. With any further upgrades, they ARE overpriced. While you can certainly tweak them out, I can only recommend them in Apocalypse or overly large games where you have points to burn.

 

On the other hand, if you want to take them withOUT jetpacks, and give them a couple power weapons or whatever, and a transport, they're not too bad if you keep them supported, but Terminators can generally fulfill the same roll better anyway.

I think there is some xenos infiltration going on here. :P

[Allerka]

Vanguard with jetpacks are borderline overpriced. With any further upgrades, they ARE overpriced. While you can certainly tweak them out, I can only recommend them in Apocalypse or overly large games where you have points to burn.

 

On the other hand, if you want to take them withOUT jetpacks, and give them a couple power weapons or whatever, and a transport, they're not too bad if you keep them supported, but Terminators can generally fulfill the same roll better anyway.

I think there is some xenos infiltration going on here. :lol:

Oh, you know what I mean. <_<

[ShinyRhino]

@ Shiny Rhino: If you add Shrike to a Vanguard unit they lose Heroic Intervention as he doesn't have the rule. Doesn't make much sense but, there you go.

 

Correct, but if you DON'T attach him to the squad, they work as I mentioned. He gives Fleet to all unts in your army.

[SamaNagol]

Vanguard with a Relic Blade Sergeant and a Power Fist Vet are the most you should spend your points on.

[Xeonic]

I have never used Vanguard, I can distinctly remember my first impression upon reading their fluff entry about heroic intervention was "ooh, these are going to be sooo awesome", imagining all sorts of situations where a lucky heroic intervention would win the day... then when I got down to their list entry I was really excited to see how powerful and customizeable they were, and finally I read down the page where it says you have to spend an additional 50pts minimum to get them jumppack mobile and I was a bit miffed to be honest.

 

I can see a good use for them to escort an IC into combat out of a raider or in a rhino/razor, but as a general rule I'll stick with vanilla assault squads for jumppack love. I haven't gotten over that initial surge of dissapointment there.

 

In assault squads, powerfist is a must, and flamers are nice, where plasma pistols can give a little punch vs termies and marine equivalent as well as light vehicles. I wouldn't give the sarge a plasma pistol though due to that potentially killing the only fist in the squad, storm shield is a good option here to help keep him alive to get the most out of his fist. I would also reccomend a jump chaplain to give the squad overall more punch in CC.

 

The little X :) on the shoulder of assault squads is actually the fast attack symbol, and is emblazoned on the shoulderpad opposite chapter symbol, sometimes with other squad markings. Think this was mentioned in the codex somewhere? Tacticals get the troops arrow ;) , devestators get a single chevron for heavy support. If you glance at the hearldry page you get some examples.

[Grey Mage]

Those symbols are actually "Assault" "Tactical" and "Devastator". That they use them for the force organization chart slots those units go in is a bit of flavor.

[FabulousRex]

I think an under-valued use for Vanguard is giving them a Razorback and running them beside your Rhinos as a CounterAssault unit. Bare bones 6 VG and a Razor runs 185pts, not bad for a unit that can put down 20A on the charge, not counting the Sgt's standard Powerweapon. Up it to a Thunderhammer, and it's 200 even. Another idea is keeping the squad un-upgraded and adding in a TL AsltCnn to the Razorback for 220... though probably only worth it if you're spamming up-gunned Razorbacks for your army.