Space Wolf Changes I Would Make (FanDex)

[Battle-Brother Wags]

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Edit: From a post below:

 

Ok I need to clarify something that is completely my fault for not clarifying at first. These are the changes I would make according to my conception of what Space Wolves are. I am not trying to strictly follow GWs fluff in doing so. I like much of their fluff, but much of it I don't agree with. I am not trying to write a codex to send to GW and say, "Hey! Mine's better!" Nor would I necessarily expect anyone else to want to use the rules I've come up with. I'll go back and edit the first post to more accurately reflect this, because I'm not saying that everyone should think like I do. For clarity's sake, let me call this -

 

Codex: Wulfric's Great Company

 

. . . as if my personal fluff creations had their own codex.

 

We're going to a Christmas party for the next few hours, but when I get back, I'll explain why I chose some of the things I did and address some of the objections that have already been made.

 

...Back to the original post...

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Listed below is my beginning concept of how I would write a space wolves codex. More will come to flesh it out as a complete codex. For the moment, these are just some of the main and first-thought-of changes that I would make. Let me know what you think! Are the point costs good? Too cheap, too expensive? Overpowered, useless? Let me know!

 

Changes from the Codex: Space Wolves –

 

- No access to Sky Claws or Swift Claws.

- No access to any of the special characters from Codex: Space Wolves

 

Mind of the Wolf – Mind of the Wolf is common to all Space Wolves. The Space Wolves prefer to wage war in a way that allows them to use all the advantages given them by the Canis Helix. As a result, Space Wolves eschew the use of on-the-field transports wherever possible, relying on their ability to stalk their prey and use their senses and wolf pack-like tactics to the full. No Space Wolf unit may take a rhino or razorback as a dedicated transport.

Blood Claws Pack – Ld 7 unit is 10-20, 13 pts

 

And They Shall Know No Fear

Insubordinate

Counter-Attack

Glory Mongers

Furious Charge

Mind of the Wolf

Acute Senses

(note the absence of Berserk Charge)

 

- Only one blood claw pack may be chosen per one thousand points of army list.

- All weapon options are as in Codex: Space Wolves with the exception that if a full pack of 20 blood claws is taken, a second special close combat weapon may be chosen.

 

Insubordinate – One of the dangers every aspirant to the Space Wolves must overcome is the call of the Wolf Spirit, which, if the aspirant is not strong enough, will overcome him and lead him irrevocably down the path of the wulfen. Combine this call of the wolf with a Blood Claw’s own ego and lust for battle and the result is a group of inexperienced warriors quite difficult to control upon the battlefield. Accordingly, the leadership of any unit of Blood Claws may never be modified above leadership 9.

 

Glory Mongers – Blood Claws are so ravenous for battle and glory that they will instinctively leap forward and charge the most fearsome foe they can find. To show this fierce and sometimes foolhardy ambition, units of Blood Claws must take a leadership test at the beginning of their move phase. If they pass, they may act as normal. If they fail, the unit enters a state of battle frenzy and can only leave the battle frenzy as described below.

 

When in their glory-induced battle frenzy, Blood Claws and any attached independent characters are Fearless and have Fleet of Foot. At this point, the Blood Claws care for nothing except sinking their chainswords into the enemy and will ignore losses, tactics, and common sense in order to do so.

 

Any unit of Blood Claws that has fallen into this battle frenzy will immediately nominate the closest visible enemy non-vehicle unit. From this point on, the Blood Claw unit must move as quickly (including running in the shooting phase) and directly as possible (including moving through difficult and/or dangerous terrain) toward the nominated enemy unit to engage it in close combat. If another enemy unit comes into the direct path of the Blood Claws as they strive to reach their nominated target, this intervening unit becomes the nominated enemy unit and the Blood Claws will assault this new enemy instead. Once the nominated unit is destroyed, the battle frenzy subsides and the Blood Claws go must once again roll against leadership in each of their movement phases as described above.

 

Grey Hunters – unit is 6-12, 15 pts

 

And They Shall Know No Fear

Mind of the Wolf

Acute Senses

Move Through Cover

Counter-Attack

 

Long Fangs – unit is 3-6 17 pts

 

And They Shall Know No Fear Mind of the Wolf

Acute Senses

Move Through Cover

Counter-Attack

Infiltrate

[Wolf Guard Dan]

All in all, I think they are cool ideas but I don't know if that's how I view space wolves.

I think that makes Blood Claws more bloodthirsty than Khorne Berzerkers so I may not like blood frenzy stuff.

Grey Hunters are basically the same but you gave them different squad sizes. I think Phil did the right thing by making them easier to put into a transport. And I think they should get transports.

Long Fangs, eh. These are not the troops you want infilitrating.

 

Good write up tho, and I can see the concpets behind your rules change but I think that the reason they moved away from your ideas would be balancing issues. More in our favor.

[Spacefrisian]

Furious charge? you actually think some rookies have furious charge and loose that when they become Greyhunters.

 

And Longfangs with infiltrate? you cant expect the old vets to fight on the front now can you.

 

Far from awesomness i think.

[Jonny Wolf]

Mind of the Wolf equals eternal foot slogging....don't know if all the Great Companies would sign up for this.

 

But, I like the write up for Blood Claws...interesting. But, it's quite a bit of reading to get to the point of the rule...not sure if GW would use up half a page of a codex for a rule :)

 

Long Fangs wouldn't infiltrate

[Vassakov]

Hmmm... not sure I entirely approve of these. Spacefrisian has summed up my views fairly well. For my part, there are two major changes I would make.

 

Give us back our Wolf Lords with TDA and Frostblades, for Russ' sake! I mean, why? Really Phil, whats the point?

 

2. Hire a proofreader. Most of the rules that cause problems are simply badly worded and have several interpretations. Grimnars USR, Leader of the Pack and Rune Priests are good starting points here.

[Battle-Brother Wags]

Ok I need to clarify something that is completely my fault for not clarifying at first. These are the changes I would make according to my conception of what Space Wolves are. I am not trying to strictly follow GWs fluff in doing so. I like much of their fluff, but much of it I don't agree with. I am not trying to write a codex to send to GW and say, "Hey! Mine's better!" Nor would I necessarily expect anyone else to want to use the rules I've come up with. I'll go back and edit the first post to more accurately reflect this, because I'm not saying that everyone should think like I do. For clarity's sake, let me call this -

 

Codex: Wulfric's Great Company

 

. . . as if my personal fluff creations had their own codex.

 

We're going to a Christmas party for the next few hours, but when I get back, I'll explain why I chose some of the things I did and address some of the objections that have already been made.

[rodf]

one of the things i would like to see is 3 inch coherency rather then 2 for vets. but that goes for all armies.

[Battle-Brother Wags]

All in all, I think they are cool ideas but I don't know if that's how I view space wolves.

I think that makes Blood Claws more bloodthirsty than Khorne Berzerkers so I may not like blood frenzy stuff.

 

It’s not blood frenzy, it’s battle frenzy. Blood Claws are so hungry to make a name for themselves and outshine all the rest and gain the attention of the Wolf Lord and other senior Space Wolves, that they basically don’t even try to restrain themselves on the battlefield in an effort to get the first kill or the best kill, etc etc etc. It’s not the same as blood-thirst or an insande desire to maim, kill, burn, just for the sake of it.

 

Grey Hunters are basically the same but you gave them different squad sizes. I think Phil did the right thing by making them easier to put into a transport. And I think they should get transports.

 

Ah, and here is the rub. My conception of Space Wolves are much more akin to actual wolves than otherwise. If any given one of my Space Wolves was a D&D character, he would be a Barbarian/Ranger (if such a combo was possible). They put up with it when necessary (inter-planetary travel, long distance transport, etc), but when it comes to battle, they can’t stand being cooped up in some metal cage with all the unnatural noises and smells. They want to have freedom of movement, be able to stalk their prey, etc. etc. This wolf-pack-like tactic and desire is why I have given them move through cover, as well.

 

Long Fangs, eh. These are not the troops you want infilitrating.

And Longfangs with infiltrate? you cant expect the old vets to fight on the front now can you.

Long Fangs wouldn't infiltrate

 

Long Fangs having infiltrate is more to represent their ability to position themselves excellently. Infiltrate means they get to deploy after the main lines of each side, which allows them in game to get the best angles and fire lanes. You all are right that it wouldn’t be a smart wolf lord that would put them out front and center, but on the other hand, a smart wolf lord WOULD use their ability to get great lanes of fire.

 

Good write up tho, and I can see the concpets behind your rules change but I think that the reason they moved away from your ideas would be balancing issues. More in our favor.

 

Yeah, as I should have mentioned in the first original post when I wrote it, I’m not too concerned about whether GW would like this or not. But the balancing issues are a good point. For a long time I’ve wanted to play a viable footslogging Space Wolf force. Transports and Space Wolves just don’t mix in my fluff-based mind. I like the idea of acting like a wolf-pack, not like every other single space marine unit that drives up in a rhino, piles out, rapid fires, then engages in close combat. Bor . . . ing . . .

 

Furious charge? you actually think some rookies have furious charge and loose that when they become Greyhunters.

 

You actually think some rookies have +2 attacks and then lose that when they become Grey Hunters? [/snarky]

 

Furious Charge is basically my replacement for Berserk Charge. It’s the same concept. In my fluff, the Blood Claws are still dealing with the Spirit of the Wolf as their bodies continue to adapt to the Canis Helix. For those who don’t overcome it, they become full-out wulfen and are released into the wild to give the next group of aspirants even more to deal with as they try to make their way back to The Fang. Those who DO overcome it become Grey Hunters. Those who don't overcome it completely but can still control themselves enough not to be dangerous to their own people have Mark of the Wulfen as explained in the main codex.

 

Far from awesomness i think.

 

Aww, where’s your Christmas spirit?! :-)

 

Mind of the Wolf equals eternal foot slogging....don't know if all the Great Companies would sign up for this.

 

Yep, footslogging it is, but that is by design, but I explained that above so I won’t waste space reiterating.

 

But, I like the write up for Blood Claws...interesting. But, it's quite a bit of reading to get to the point of the rule...not sure if GW would use up half a page of a codex for a rule :)

Thanks! I really wanted the fluff of the Blood Claws to be reflected in their rules. And yeah, it is quite a bit to digest. But there is the problem, if you want cool rules that are clearly written and you want to make sure there aren’t any loopholes, you’ve gotta take the time to spell it out. Why do we have so many rules that are ambiguous? Because GW is trying to make the rules as simple as possible in how they write them and this means they don’t cover all the situations that WILL come up in a game that is far from simple itself.

 

Give us back our Wolf Lords with TDA and Frostblades, for Russ' sake! I mean, why? Really Phil, whats the point?

 

Yeah, I will do this when I get to it. These were just my first round of thoughts/changes.

 

2. Hire a proofreader. Most of the rules that cause problems are simply badly worded and have several interpretations. Grimnars USR, Leader of the Pack and Rune Priests are good starting points here.

Yeah, I completely agree. Read my response to Johny Wolf above for my take on this.

 

Ok, looks like I had the time to get this off before the Christmas party after all. I’ll post more fluff when I do get home. I hope these responses help to explain why I did what I did, however. What do you guys think of the points costs? Do they seem reasonable? Do you think you could take a list using these unit entries that would be viable against most other armies? (Obviously any list designed specifically can destroy any other general list, so I’m thinking in the realm of all-comers lists here.) Thanks for your responses so far!

[Jonny Wolf]

Well argued. Still not my cup of tea, but your points are compelling. Good job.

 

Jonny

[Battle-Brother Wags]

Thoughts on Fluff to further explain the above rulings as well as get my ideas in order. Any comments, suggestions, or reasonable critiques are very welcome. Reminder: this is my own take on Space Wolf fluff, so don't yell at me if there are any significant points of departure from GW canon, whether from current codexes or BL publications. Please base critiques off of personal like/dislike as well as asking the question, "Is this fluff reasonable, make sense, cool . . ." etc. etc. etc.

 

SPACE WOLVES in General

 

The Space Wolves are truly a unique chapter amongst Space Marines. In truth, it would be a misnomer to consider them to be a chapter at all as in actuality they never ceased being a legion from the days before the Horus Heresy. Granted, in comparison with some legions such as the Luna Wolves, the Space Wolves comprise a relatively small legion, but still, the structure and downsizing of the chapter model was no more agreeable to Leman Russ than the other basic tenets of the Codex Astartes. Currently, the Space Wolves Legion is comprised of twelve great companies, the largest of which is none other than the Great Wolf's own company, numbering some three hundred Space Wolves itself, down to the smallest, led by Wolf Lord Wulfric, numbering slightly over one hundred twenty Space Wolves.

 

Space Wolves experience great joy in all things competitive. Whether it be eating, drinking, wrestling, hunting, or even something as simple as jumping, the Space Wolves will show themselves adequately capable of producing victory after victory, even amongst themselves, in which case both competitors will claim victory. In these cases, the true victor becomes the one who convinces all others of his own superiority, generally while standing over their prone forms with clenched fists, bellowing at the top of his lungs. For all their competitiveness, however, the Space Wolves are generally a good-natured bunch and a good joke is just as likely to receive a raucous round of applause as any of the aforementioned competitions.

 

Despite their course and oftentimes dour appearance, charisma is very important to the Space Wolf, especially as it tends to not only be the strongest and toughest, but also the most charismatic Space Wolf that gravitates toward leadership over his wolf-brothers. This becomes all the more important because just like a pack of fenrisian wolves, Space Wolves remain in the same pack from their inception as Space Wolves until they have all passed into the afterlife. In this way, Space Wolf packs grow closer and closer together, with the same leader, in some ways an alpha wolf himself, leading them throughout the decades and even centuries. When a pack takes losses, the unit will simply continue to fight as a reduced pack. They will not be reinforced by reinforcements or merged with other depleted packs. To do so would to cause even greater havoc in the pack dynamics than to simply continue on with diminished numbers. In this way, a Space Wolf Pack will number twenty or so as Blood Claws and through attrition will generally be half that as Grey Hunters and, by the time they gain the experience to be considered for the role of Long Fang, the pack will be halved in size yet again. In this way, the progress of the Space Wolf is continuous with the end result, barring death, almost always the same: utilizing the experience of hundreds of years of warfare as mentors to younger Space Wolves and guarding them from range as a pack of Long Fangs.

 

BLOOD CLAWS

 

Blood Claws are the neophytes of the Space Wolves and while fully members of the Legion are not considered members of their respective Great Companies until they prove themselves in battle. When first elevated to practical immortality by the Wolf Priests through the implantation of the gene-seed of Leman Russ, and upon successfully completing the Test of Morkai, Blood Claws are formed into packs of roughly twenty. With the desire to earn full brotherhood in their adopted Great Company, these Blood Claws launch themselves into battle with the greatest of fervor. In order to curb a zeal that would more often than not lead to their own demise, such Blood Claw packs are most often led by a member of the Wolf Guard or even a Wolf Priest. After a number of campaigns, sometimes involving decades of experience, when it appears the Blood Claws have properly adapted to the Canis Helix and have come to a greater understanding of how their abilities and value fit into the overall battle-plan, the pack in its entirety is promoted to the status of Grey Hunter Pack. Until this point, however, Blood Claws are almost single-minded in their goal to win for themselves glory and renown for deeds upon the battlefield.

 

GREY HUNTERS

 

Having experienced both the horrors and elation of the battlefield and promoted to the consideration of Grey Hunter, the once-Blood Claws begin to understand that there is more to serving their Great Company and the Emperor of Mankind than simply running straight at the enemy screaming their most daunting battle-cries. At this point, Grey Hunters have begun to learn how to move and act as a true wolf pack, every move in concert with the rest of the pack, no move wasted or superfluous. To this end, Grey Hunters will approach the enemy with greater cunning and less foolish bravado. Stalking through whatever cover is available, these experienced warriors will position themselves so as to minimize their own exposure while preparing to launch a devastating close quarters assault.

 

More to come, but for tonight, I'm tired . . . good night and MERRY CHRISTMAS to all!

[Night Runner]

I really wouldn't want to live in a world were Space Wolves don't have any bikers <_< Aside from GH they are my favourite troop choice! Overall though your take is interesting, at least to read. There are some points that I don't agree with like furious charge, LF infiltrating and 'Mind of the Wolf' that don't sound fluffy from where I stand.

 

If I was you I'd try to incorporate your take on the SW within the limits of the codex, otherwise you might have difficulty finding opponents willing to play against an army that is not legal, unless you gaming group allows it, in which case don't look back.

[Rocknar]

I like your concept. I thought about doing somthing like this before the new dex came out. I was thinking outflank for your Grey Hunters as an upgrade ability. In addition to some of the thigh the new dex has.

[Grey Mage]

Just... not a fan. Seems about half way to a 13nth company, but without the fluff to back it up or the strengths of either list.

[Y'he Sha'is]

I actually really like the idea of that BB Wags has put forth.

 

Is it super-mega competative? Probably not as competative as some of the codex SW lists out there, but so far the ideas put forth really make a lot of sense to me in the framework that Wags has put forth. Most of the criticism seems to forget this is within his personal framework of spacewolves. I sort of see this list as the lost 2nd founding of the space wolves, that aren't exactly like the Codex SWs, but come from a common gene seed. I know that's not 100% fluffy, but see the Soul Drinkers novels fora similar case.

 

There is definately a shift towards the way the 13th company fights, and i personally like that. Wags explains the fluff behind his ideas pretty well, so if you take that as a starting point, the rest of the rules make a lot of sense. Especially if you consider the acute senses based upon the wolf gene they have.

 

So, starting from the idea of a wulfen-esque marine, who wants to be cramped up in an oily rhino if you can stay out in the open and fight your enemy that way. (I think of a dog with his head out of the window of my car here). No rhinos or razorbacks are fine, as long as you give something back to allow faster/more fluid movement. There seems to be an evolving attempt to do this.

 

The blood claws are interesting, but I think the rule should (perhaps) be adjusted to show their lust for the 'big hunt', but I'm not sure how to do it. It doesn't seem right that they would appease their battle-frenzy on a group of grots if the Ork warboss is 100 feet away.

 

But, I'll gladly play you anytime!

 

Keep it up!

[Battle-Brother Wags]

The blood claws are interesting, but I think the rule should (perhaps) be adjusted to show their lust for the 'big hunt', but I'm not sure how to do it. It doesn't seem right that they would appease their battle-frenzy on a group of grots if the Ork warboss is 100 feet away.

 

I thought about doing something like, if there is an enemy monstrous creature or independent character within 18-24" of them, they will nominate the closest of these as the target they must destroy. If there isn't, then they will go for the closest enemy unit. Kinda one of those things that they will immediately zoom in on the biggest baddie, but if that baddie is too far away, they'll settle for the masses that they would have to chop through to get to that baddie in the first place. The reason for this is while I want this Glory Mongers rule to be a liability in the cant-control-my-own-unit type way, I don't want it to make Blood Claws unplayable. If they had to move/run at the closest IC/MC and that happened to be in the opposite corner, then they'd have to run 4-5' in front of the guns of the enemy when even a Blood Claw wouldn't run right past or skirt around an enemy unit and NOT fight them just so they could get to the IC/MC a mile away. Its kinda like the immediate gratification vs. long term gain. Yeah, more glory and honor for killing the Wraithlord, but when the group of dire avengers is RIGHT THERE, its hard to pass up.

[Ullr Direfang]

well i have to say that it is interesting. i though agree that some aspects seem odd or unreasonable. i personally wouldn't use it.

 

i feel that you have given much to all the units you have changed and lowered their points. which to me doesn't make sense. they are better in your veiw but worth less?

 

that i feel is where my biggest problem comes from.

[SamaNagol]

No offence, but you have the perception of Space Wolves which made Dan Abnett not want to write about them. Utterly one-dimensional vikings in space.

[Battle-Brother Wags]

Just... not a fan. Seems about half way to a 13nth company, but without the fluff to back it up or the strengths of either list.

 

You don’t find the fluff I’ve provided to be at all compelling? What more fluff reasons do you need to have?

 

well i have to say that it is interesting. i though agree that some aspects seem odd or unreasonable. i personally wouldn't use it.

 

Could you help me by pointing out the aspects that seem unreasonable? I don’t want to be accused of power gaming in the creation of my own codex. That would be just wrong from the getgo.

 

i feel that you have given much to all the units you have changed and lowered their points. which to me doesn't make sense. they are better in your veiw but worth less?

 

The only unit that is worth less is the Blood Claw unit. And in general, it would stand to reason that the units wouldn’t be worth as much seeing as they are completely denied the use of rhinos or razorbacks. Not being able to go mechanized in the current metagame is a serious liability. I think the move through cover covers this a little, but not on an equal basis. However, I think that originally Grey Hunters were an absolute steal for 15 points, so keeping them at 15 points is more fair since they’re not quite as good as the main codex Grey Hunters.

 

Blood Claws are cheaper, yes, but also suffer a lack of transports and are wildly undependable to do what you want them to do. Everyone knows that units that are random in some sense are just less desirable. The enemy can use the blood claws’ own abilities against them, much like BT righteous zealing, only in this case, the blood claws can’t move .1” toward the enemy and call it good. They have to go straight out as fast as possible no holding back. I think the 13 point BCs are fair. If you don’t agree, I’d readily invite you to explain why you think they’re undercosted.

 

The Long Fangs are of course more expensive.

 

No offence, but you have the perception of Space Wolves which made Dan Abnett not want to write about them. Utterly one-dimensional vikings in space.

No offense taken. And with all due respect to Dan Abnett, I don’t mind that. And I don’t look at them as Vikings in space. They’re wolves in space. Thus the name Space Wolves and why I have done my best to work in more of a pack mentality, etc. And as far as one-dimensional? Well, when you take a vanilla codex and try to do something different, you by nature limit yourself. Black Templars are one-dimensional in comparison to Vanilla Marines. So are Blood Angels, so are Space Wolves. You can play them in different ways but compared to the vanilla codex, they are far more restricted in what they can do effectively. And if Dan Abnett doesn’t like that, then that’s ok. He has full reign to make Space Wolves as he sees them. I may not be a Black Library author, but I also have full reign to make Space Wolves as I see them as long as I have a gaming group that is willing to let me play using this particular codex.

 

The problem, as I mentioned before, is that I don’t like how Space Wolves seem to use the same tactics (at least for troops) as Codex:Space Marines. They drive up in their rhinos, unload, and rapid fire. They then launch or receive an assault. Is that any less one-dimensional than what I have proposed here? Boring Boring Boring. But perhaps a bunch of Space Marines that break that mold and will use cover as they stalk across the board, making mad dashes across open terrain and such will at least add a modicum of excitement to the movement phase instead of, “12 inches forward, 12 inches forward, disembark, rapid fire,” over and over again.

 

Thoughts?

[Vassakov]

I've got to stand with Grey Mage on this one. To me, what makes the Wolves so potent is that the savage, bestial "werewolf-vikings" are the failures. The Space Wolves are the cunning of the wolf pack and the strength of the patient hunter blended perfectly with the fury and the ingenuity of mankind. Yes, they are feral and barbaric in nature, with almost primitive customs and a very obvious "Viking" bent to them.

 

But above all, they are Astartes. Above all, they are the Emperors Space Marines, with all the strengths of a Chapter. They do not fight like the Dark Angels or Ultramarines, but they call upon the same resources. After all, you don't expect them to ply the stars in longboats do you? :cuss

 

Basically I just think there's a line between the Wolves as a "different" Legion and the Wolves as a bunch of feral, semi backwards marauding psychopaths. Which is probably why I thought that the short story in the HH novels was so good.

[Battle-Brother Wags]

The Space Wolves are the cunning of the wolf pack and the strength of the patient hunter blended perfectly with the fury and the ingenuity of mankind. Yes, they are feral and barbaric in nature, with almost primitive customs and a very obvious "Viking" bent to them.

 

Hmm, I thought this is how I had described them as well . . . of course I suppose I may have majored on the wolf-pack concept above all else because that is the divergence that needed to be made plain.

 

But above all, they are Astartes. Above all, they are the Emperors Space Marines, with all the strengths of a Chapter. They do not fight like the Dark Angels or Ultramarines, but they call upon the same resources. After all, you don't expect them to ply the stars in longboats do you? :)

 

I'm glad you brought this up because it helps me to understand how what I've written is perceived. I really didn't mean to make them sound like they are anything less than astartes. Being Space Marines is still very important to them. They are Astartes and they would consider themselves the most loyal to the Emperor of ALL Space Marines. I guess I was just focusing more on what makes them different from the rest of the Space Marines. I suppose I should focus more on the overall picture in my next rendition so that they don't appear to be . . .

 

. . . a bunch of feral, semi backwards marauding psychopaths.

 

I actually think the rules I came up with for Blood Claws reflect the Codex: Space Wolves fluff for Blood Claws just as much as my own fluff. And they are, of course, the closest thing to marauding psychopaths that can be found in among Space Wolves. In all honesty, I think any group of Space Marines that are recruited entirely from tribes of people who DO travel from place to place in longboats and think the thunderhawks they occasionally see in the distance are some magical manifestation of the gods WOULD be a little backward. Even in GW canon, the Space Wolves seem to be the most superstitious and backward group of Space Marines . . . at least from the perspective of the more straight-laced Space Marines. . . Isn't there an excerpt from some BL novel where the one character says that Space Wolves are the best fighters because they are certifiably insane? Or something to that effect?

 

I was actually considering the idea of allowing my Space Wolves access to Rhinos or Razorbacks but they would fill fast attack slots. Or perhaps give them access as dedicated transports as normal but hike up the point cost. It's not that Space Wolves don't use them or that they don't have the knowledge or technology, but rather when given the choice, they would rather use the cunning of the wolf pack rather than the artifice of the mechanicum. This is an interesting plight. I don't want them to sound like they cannot fathom star travel or as if they are ignorant . . . I just want them to be more wolfy than they are vikingy and more distinct from the rest of the Space Marines without sacrificing the fact that they ARE Space Marines.

 

Hmm, anyone offer any suggestions on how to marry the two concepts together?

[stinkenheim]

you say that you don't like the fact that all marine armies play the same and yet you have taken away transport options for space wolves, thus forcing EVERY space wolf list you write to play in one way, footslogging. surely having transports means that there is a choice of playstyles available not just one.

i would note that you seem to have taken away the ability of your troops to close with the enemy (transports) and replaced it with move through cover, why? i could understand scout, or infiltrate (although i don't agree they should have them) as they would help them close the ground quicker. however MTC won't really help at all, except to maybe squeeze an extra inch on the odd difficult terrain test.

i also don't see the reasons behind taking out skyclaws/swiftclaws as it means your only fast attack choices are TWC or landspeeders. it seems counterproductive to me as you arguthat you don't like everyone playing the same way but you are severly handicapping what you are taking, thus forcing your lists to be extremely similar regardless of what units may actually fit in a given game.

 

i realise it is your company, and your vision of it but it just doesn't make sense. it seems like you want to play a 13th company themed force but aren't prepared to fully commit and drop all the vehicles.

 

either way, i would probably let you use it in a friendly game mostly because you don't seem to be gaining any real advantages (apart from infiltrating LF but they can be dealt with by weight of fire, especially if i were to go first) and suffering several disadvantages (namely the speed at which you would close with me, your manouverability and the limited number of units in certain sections of the FOC)

 

+edit+ just noticed the last part of your most recent post, if you want to do that then fine but it seems like shooting yourself in the foot. if you dislike 'rhino rush' style armies then simply write up a different one using the current codex its not that hard. i play a purely footslogging army and have good success with it, occassionaly on a particularly open field i may take a couple more rhinos. it doesn't mean my battle planis simply go forward as quick as possible and then get charged.

the new codex is wonderfully diverse in terms of lists we can build, I don't see the point in rewriting issues to solve problems which don't need solving.

just my 2 cents, feel free to ignore if you want. its late and i need seep so apologies if i sounded rude.

[Battle-Brother Wags]

you say that you don't like the fact that all marine armies play the same and yet you have taken away transport options for space wolves, thus forcing EVERY space wolf list you write to play in one way, footslogging. surely having transports means that there is a choice of playstyles available not just one.

 

Actually I figure that this list makes 3 basic builds available with the units listed above. You have the footslogging army which I kinda think would be standard. You have the drop pod force. And you have the Land Raider list :-).

 

You see, there are inherent problems no matter what codex you use simply because people are going to, by and large, find the one build that works the best without being insanely over-the-top-win-at-all-costs and they will use that build the vast majority of the time. Case in point, the rhino rush. Is it the only way to play a Space Marine army? No, certainly not. But what will you 9 out of 10 times find as the backbone of any given Space Marine army? The Rhino rush. I have definitely limited the options of anyone using the codex I've started. I will certainly admit that. But in limiting that, at least I have guaranteed that the list won't be like the majority of other Space Marine lists out there.

 

i would note that you seem to have taken away the ability of your troops to close with the enemy (transports) and replaced it with move through cover, why? i could understand scout, or infiltrate (although i don't agree they should have them) as they would help them close the ground quicker. however MTC won't really help at all, except to maybe squeeze an extra inch on the odd difficult terrain test.

 

The addition of Move Through Cover was for two reasons. First of all, I really do think it is fluffy for my Space Wolf Barbarian Rangers :-) Yes, they're wearing six hundred pounds of armor, but they still know how to move with the terrain instead of against it. Secondly, the metagame of my particular gaming group is one that utilizes way more terrain than most people. In terms of basic table coverage, we probably play with 50% terrain, if not slightly more. In this setting, Move Through Cover is a significant ability, pretty near guaranteeing a turn's worth of movement being in the neighborhood of 10" while maintaining a 4+ cover save. So in the games I usually play, there will be far more than the odd difficult terrain test :-).

 

i also don't see the reasons behind taking out skyclaws/swiftclaws as it means your only fast attack choices are TWC or landspeeders. it seems counterproductive to me as you arguthat you don't like everyone playing the same way but you are severly handicapping what you are taking, thus forcing your lists to be extremely similar regardless of what units may actually fit in a given game.

 

This is a very good point and I think you're right. I might seriously reconsider putting those units back in. There wasn't really much of a reason to take them out except that they weren't "natural," but as someone said above, maybe a mix of wolf-cunning with a greater dose of the ingenuity of mankind is in order here.

 

I haven't gotten there yet, but I fully plan on changing TWC. In fact, I don't much like the concept of TWC at all. The physics of it just doesn't work for me. Instead of a Space Marine riding a Thunderwolf, I am more inclined to think of a Space Wolf LEADING a pack of Thunderwolves as the Alpha Male. This is how it is described in the Codex: Space Wolves Thunderwolf entry, at least, that a Space Wolf will go in, kill the Alpha Male of the pack, thereby earning the respect and loyalty of the rest of the pack. So perhaps doing somewhat of a meld of the TWC entry and the Fenrision Wolf Pack entry. Perhaps even doing two sorts. Perhaps a more devastating cavalry unit (no riders, but moving like cavalry) would be a Wolf Guard level model (stat-wise) with Mark of the Wulfen leading a pack of 4-6 Thunderwolves would be good and a cheaper more common unit of a Grey Hunter level model (stat-wise) with Mark of the Wulfen leading a pack of 5-10 Fenrisian Wolves. Obviously the Thunderwolves would be bigger and badder and more expensive and the Fenrisians less so, but cheaper. I'd definitely have to work on the rules and stats for these guys, though.

 

i realise it is your company, and your vision of it but it just doesn't make sense. it seems like you want to play a 13th company themed force but aren't prepared to fully commit and drop all the vehicles.

 

I really appreciate your input. It has helped me to reconsider some things and I think it will be for the better. Thanks!

 

+edit+ just noticed the last part of your most recent post, if you want to do that then fine but it seems like shooting yourself in the foot. if you dislike 'rhino rush' style armies then simply write up a different one using the current codex its not that hard. i play a purely footslogging army and have good success with it, occassionaly on a particularly open field i may take a couple more rhinos.

 

I've tried to do this in the past and it never really seemed to work. From my experience, footslogging without something to somewhat compensate (something that gives faster movement like Move Through Cover or greater durability through larger pack sizes) just doesn't work. It'd be great if you could share some of your tactics that have led to your success in foot slogging.

 

just my 2 cents, feel free to ignore if you want. its late and i need seep so apologies if i sounded rude.

 

Not rude at all. I appreciate it, thanks!

[rodf]

wolves should get to wagh !

[Thunderpup]

Having rescently finished the 1st Space Wolves Omnibus... I wish we had Thunderhawks. :lol:

 

Seems like they're riding around in those more than anything else.

[Valerian]

Having rescently finished the 1st Space Wolves Omnibus... I wish we had Thunderhawks. :lol:

 

Seems like they're riding around in those more than anything else.

 

Well, notionally at least, we do have Thunderhawks; however, they just aren't appropriate for standard 40k games. There is no reasonable way to balance them into a game. They aren't an option for the same reason that Ork Stompas are not available in the Ork codex. They are, however, available using the Apocalypse varient rules, so feel free to use them in those games.

 

I have always wished, however, for something like a Thunderhawk, but smaller and less powerful, that would be appropriate for standard 40k games. Unfortunately, I'm still waiting.

 

V