Space Wolf Changes I Would Make (FanDex)

[Thunderpup]

Having rescently finished the 1st Space Wolves Omnibus... I wish we had Thunderhawks. ;)

 

Seems like they're riding around in those more than anything else.

 

Well, notionally at least, we do have Thunderhawks; however, they just aren't appropriate for standard 40k games. There is no reasonable way to balance them into a game. They aren't an option for the same reason that Ork Stompas are not available in the Ork codex. They are, however, available using the Apocalypse varient rules, so feel free to use them in those games.

 

I have always wished, however, for something like a Thunderhawk, but smaller and less powerful, that would be appropriate for standard 40k games. Unfortunately, I'm still waiting.

 

V

 

Bolded for emphasis. <cough> Valkeries! <cough> :rolleyes:

 

Pup.

[Grey Mage]

Just... not a fan. Seems about half way to a 13nth company, but without the fluff to back it up or the strengths of either list.

 

You don’t find the fluff I’ve provided to be at all compelling? What more fluff reasons do you need to have?

 

*snip*

The problem, as I mentioned before, is that I don’t like how Space Wolves seem to use the same tactics (at least for troops) as Codex:Space Marines. They drive up in their rhinos, unload, and rapid fire. They then launch or receive an assault. Is that any less one-dimensional than what I have proposed here? Boring Boring Boring. But perhaps a bunch of Space Marines that break that mold and will use cover as they stalk across the board, making mad dashes across open terrain and such will at least add a modicum of excitement to the movement phase instead of, “12 inches forward, 12 inches forward, disembark, rapid fire,” over and over again.

 

Thoughts?

I dont. I dont find it in agreement with GWs fluff on the matter, nor do I find it in agreement with my own veiws of "expanded fluff". But to each their own. Here are a few of my issues:

 

No transports- I find that frankly dumb. One doesnt wage war across an entire planet without a ride of some kind. The ability to strategicly redploy your entire force swiftly is a tactic used by wolves on the hunt- theyve been known to cover 20 miles faster than a man on horseback in the same mountainous terrain, and they certainly understand how positioning allows one to take down prey several times your own size. Ever seen a pack of wolves take down an elk? Rhinos were a gift from the emperor unto his legions, including the wolves so they could get where they needed to go- quickly.

 

Insubordinate- why allow them to modify their leadership to 9? Only one SW HQ has a LD above that- wolf lords. Its a change that barely has any affect, but is couched as a drawback.

 

Glory Mongers- a few things here- 1) You could have just said they have the "rage" special rule. 2) I already have a hard time justifying the use of BCs, this would make them a never-seen choice in my army.

 

Furious Charge- I dont think Furious Charge is a good representation of the bloodclaw way of battle- they are not stronger and faster than Grey Hunters, merely more agressive- extra attacks on the charge shows that, without being over the top *like having more base attacks* and their low WS allows them to be hit more often, showing their lower experiance and their lack of concern for their own safety.

 

Move Through Cover- I dont see why Grey Hunters should benefit from this any more than a regular marine. Besides, we already have Counter-attack and Acute Senses... this would be a bit much.

 

Infiltrate- While I would enjoy the use of Infiltrate on longfangs, I just dont see it working in the fluff- they are no sneakier than their younger brethren, simply calmer and better equiped for ranged combat. If anything slow and purposeful would be the rule I give them- and that would entail a good sized point hike.

 

Skyclaws- I see no reason to remove jump packs from the SW arsenol. They are uncommon in the PH legions, but even the SWs used them. They are a good unit, and one wich any commander could see the viability of- is not the killing leap for the throat one of the halmarks of wolf hunting?

 

Swiftclaws- Im upset that they dont have GH biker packs available, taking away BC Bikers would just be silly. Again... fast moving, agressive, and precise. These are good things, higly desirable if you will, within a wolf pack. The fact that they are scouts riding them tooled for CC and having up to 12 marines in the squad is already very divergent. I would think that would be enough difference for anyone.

 

What I do agree with:

I like the idea of larger squad sizes- I wouldnt use them much, but the ability to have them would be nice. On the other hand the new squad size of 5 suits me well within the fluff too, as a pack is not promoted just because it loses alot of members... thus smaller packs are quite possible. *In fact, I find that the likeliest source of tank/speeder crews*.

 

I think your rules would be a good start for a 13nth company list, but still would need alot of work done.

 

@Thunderpup- Valkyries are not, and never have been, superheavy vehicles. It would be akin to giving the IG Baneblades and their variants as heavy support choices.

 

EDIT: @BB Wags- If you dont like using standard rhino tactics with SWs... dont. Use footsloggers, use DPs, play some planetstrike, or apocalypse *flank march*. You are only constrained by your own tactical acumen. Playing a DP force is anything but boring, and footsloggers can be incredibly varied and require a steady hand and a bit of finesse.

[Sarapham]

Insubordinate- why allow them to modify their leadership to 9? Only one SW HQ has a LD above that- wolf lords. Its a change that barely has any affect, but is couched as a drawback.

 

 

Actually does not every SW HQ have LD10 barring the WGBL? (not counting Special Characters)

[MaveriK]

so what do your Iron Priest do in your great company? work for nike cause everyone is sporting nice kicks footlogging? :huh:

 

If it aint broken, *our current codex* why fix it? sure its not perfect, but it works. Why complicate things with new rules and add more goodies onto current packs? if you really want to play the way you envision Space Wolves, then I say use the codex as it is; only handicap yourself by not using vehicles, sky claws, swift claws and all the things you've mentioned. Limit yourself with what's given to you and play a few games with it and see how you do against a shooty list.

 

Anyway I agree with what Vassakov, Jonny Wolf, Spacefrisian, Wolf Guard Dan, Night Runner, Grey Mage, stinkenheim and Valerian all pointed out. Having fluff is great, it is why most of us got into Space Wolves in the first place, however... you have to realize that balance takes president over most of the fluff just so that its fun, fair and reasonable for everyone.

 

I haven't gotten there yet, but I fully plan on changing TWC. In fact, I don't much like the concept of TWC at all. The physics of it just doesn't work for me. Instead of a Space Marine riding a Thunderwolf, I am more inclined to think of a Space Wolf LEADING a pack of Thunderwolves as the Alpha Male. This is how it is described in the Codex: Space Wolves Thunderwolf entry, at least, that a Space Wolf will go in, kill the Alpha Male of the pack, thereby earning the respect and loyalty of the rest of the pack. So perhaps doing somewhat of a meld of the TWC entry and the Fenrision Wolf Pack entry. Perhaps even doing two sorts. Perhaps a more devastating cavalry unit (no riders, but moving like cavalry) would be a Wolf Guard level model (stat-wise) with Mark of the Wulfen leading a pack of 4-6 Thunderwolves would be good and a cheaper more common unit of a Grey Hunter level model (stat-wise) with Mark of the Wulfen leading a pack of 5-10 Fenrisian Wolves. Obviously the Thunderwolves would be bigger and badder and more expensive and the Fenrisians less so, but cheaper. I'd definitely have to work on the rules and stats for these guys, though.

 

how can you explain a Wolf Guard model all of a sudden able to move like cavalry and charge like them?

 

Long Fangs having infiltrate is more to represent their ability to position themselves excellently. Infiltrate means they get to deploy after the main lines of each side, which allows them in game to get the best angles and fire lanes. You all are right that it wouldn’t be a smart wolf lord that would put them out front and center, but on the other hand, a smart wolf lord WOULD use their ability to get great lanes of fire.

 

A smart wolf lord would use every equipment available and accessible to him in the codex and not limit himself and his great company of the advantages that he can choose from. A smart wolf lord would not just rely on great lines of fire for his Long Fangs. A smarter wolf lord would use every pack he has to bait and trap his enemies in order to have great lines of fire.

[MaveriK]

The blood claws are interesting, but I think the rule should (perhaps) be adjusted to show their lust for the 'big hunt', but I'm not sure how to do it. It doesn't seem right that they would appease their battle-frenzy on a group of grots if the Ork warboss is 100 feet away.

 

I thought about doing something like, if there is an enemy monstrous creature or independent character within 18-24" of them, they will nominate the closest of these as the target they must destroy. If there isn't, then they will go for the closest enemy unit. Kinda one of those things that they will immediately zoom in on the biggest baddie, but if that baddie is too far away, they'll settle for the masses that they would have to chop through to get to that baddie in the first place. The reason for this is while I want this Glory Mongers rule to be a liability in the cant-control-my-own-unit type way, I don't want it to make Blood Claws unplayable. If they had to move/run at the closest IC/MC and that happened to be in the opposite corner, then they'd have to run 4-5' in front of the guns of the enemy when even a Blood Claw wouldn't run right past or skirt around an enemy unit and NOT fight them just so they could get to the IC/MC a mile away. Its kinda like the immediate gratification vs. long term gain. Yeah, more glory and honor for killing the Wraithlord, but when the group of dire avengers is RIGHT THERE, its hard to pass up.

 

 

umm... huh? what's wrong with the Headstrong rule?

 

I was actually considering the idea of allowing my Space Wolves access to Rhinos or Razorbacks but they would fill fast attack slots. Or perhaps give them access as dedicated transports as normal but hike up the point cost. It's not that Space Wolves don't use them or that they don't have the knowledge or technology, but rather when given the choice, they would rather use the cunning of the wolf pack rather than the artifice of the mechanicum. This is an interesting plight. I don't want them to sound like they cannot fathom star travel or as if they are ignorant . . . I just want them to be more wolfy than they are vikingy and more distinct from the rest of the Space Marines without sacrificing the fact that they ARE Space Marines.

 

Hmm, anyone offer any suggestions on how to marry the two concepts together?

 

I think your definition of cunning of a wolf pack differs from the rest of us, and that's okay. But Space Wolves are already distinct from the rest of the Space Marines by the way we think, operate and run things. So now your considering the idea of allowing access to Rhinos and Razorbacks even though some of your maximum pack sizes you've mentioned would make it difficult to have. And changing rhino's and razorbacks roles into a fast attack slots? really? your Iron Priest work for MTV pimp my ride? that's sweet! :huh:

[MaveriK]

I was just kidding around man, its your army and your fluff... do what you want. Just know that not everyone is going to agree or play with you. :huh:

[Beef]

Only thing I would do is raise the I of wolf priests, I want them back as the combat monsters they were

[Battle-Brother Wags]

Wow, I seem to have raised the hackles of my fellow wolf-brothers. That wasn't really my intent. And I wasn't trying to "fix" the Space Wolf codex. I actually really enjoy our new codex. All I was trying to do was have some fun with fluff in a situation where fluff wins over gameplay, even if that means playing at a detriment to myself.

 

I probably should not have posted this as an unfinished product in any case. Its hard to see how everything would fit together when its only a sampling. At any rate, I'm too tired at this point and the project was intended simply to be fun to continue addressing every little point made against it.

 

And no, I'm not moping and my feelings aren't hurt, this exercise just wasn't as lighthearted and fun as I thought it would be.

[Grey Mage]

Sorry if I came off angry Wags, Im really not... Im just disagreeing and I hoped the critiques would help you understand why.

[Valerian]

Having rescently finished the 1st Space Wolves Omnibus... I wish we had Thunderhawks. ;)

 

Seems like they're riding around in those more than anything else.

 

Well, notionally at least, we do have Thunderhawks; however, they just aren't appropriate for standard 40k games. There is no reasonable way to balance them into a game. They aren't an option for the same reason that Ork Stompas are not available in the Ork codex. They are, however, available using the Apocalypse varient rules, so feel free to use them in those games.

 

I have always wished, however, for something like a Thunderhawk, but smaller and less powerful, that would be appropriate for standard 40k games. Unfortunately, I'm still waiting.

 

V

 

Bolded for emphasis. <cough> Valkeries! <cough> :rolleyes:

 

Pup.

 

Are you trying to say that Valkeries/Vendettas aren't appropriate for standard games, and are out of balance? I wouldn't go so far as to say that, and certainly wouldn't try to compare the 120 point (or whatever is it, don't have IG Codex with me) Valkerie to the 900 point Thunderhawk.

 

On a vaguely related note, I wish the Marines had the Valkeries intead of/in addition to the IG; they are the perfect vehicle for us, and fit nicely between the Land Speeder and the Thunderhawk.

 

Wags, apologize for the off-topic question, but it piqued my interest.

 

 

V

[Thunderpup]

Having rescently finished the 1st Space Wolves Omnibus... I wish we had Thunderhawks. ;)

 

Seems like they're riding around in those more than anything else.

 

Well, notionally at least, we do have Thunderhawks; however, they just aren't appropriate for standard 40k games. There is no reasonable way to balance them into a game. They aren't an option for the same reason that Ork Stompas are not available in the Ork codex. They are, however, available using the Apocalypse varient rules, so feel free to use them in those games.

 

I have always wished, however, for something like a Thunderhawk, but smaller and less powerful, that would be appropriate for standard 40k games. Unfortunately, I'm still waiting.

 

V

 

Bolded for emphasis. <cough> Valkeries! <cough> :P

 

Pup.

 

Are you trying to say that Valkeries/Vendettas aren't appropriate for standard games, and are out of balance? I wouldn't go so far as to say that, and certainly wouldn't try to compare the 120 point (or whatever is it, don't have IG Codex with me) Valkerie to the 900 point Thunderhawk.

 

On a vaguely related note, I wish the Marines had the Valkeries intead of/in addition to the IG; they are the perfect vehicle for us, and fit nicely between the Land Speeder and the Thunderhawk.

 

Wags, apologize for the off-topic question, but it piqued my interest.

 

 

V

 

Off topic, so i wont post on this again. (In this thread) :P

 

But if you take everything on a valkerie you pay 155pts for a fast skimmer tank with extra armor(free), a lascannon, 2 large pie plates, 6 S5 shots, Front/Side armor of 12, and can transport up to 12 models that can disembark from the airship even if it moves flat out. Closest thing to that is a Land Raider as far as i know. (For a lot more points) And the guard player can take up to 9 of them if they want. (Large games obviously)

 

And how do the players in your neck of the woods work out the rules for using the blasted things. People i've played can never agree on squat. IG players want all the perks and the opponents want to nerf them into oblivion.

 

And wags? Play up your fluff/rules any way you want. Just run them past the person you're playing before hand. Most people shouldn't mind in friendly games. At least i wouldn't

[Grey Mage]

Off topic, so i wont post on this again. (In this thread) :P

 

But if you take everything on a valkerie you pay 155pts for a fast skimmer tank with extra armor(free), a lascannon, 2 large pie plates, 6 S5 shots, Front/Side armor of 12, and can transport up to 12 models that can disembark from the airship even if it moves flat out. Closest thing to that is a Land Raider as far as i know. (For a lot more points) And the guard player can take up to 9 of them if they want. (Large games obviously)

 

And how do the players in your neck of the woods work out the rules for using the blasted things. People i've played can never agree on squat. IG players want all the perks and the opponents want to nerf them into oblivion.

 

And wags? Play up your fluff/rules any way you want. Just run them past the person you're playing before hand. Most people shouldn't mind in friendly games. At least i wouldn't

Whats the rules confusion? They seem pretty straightforward to me.

[Thunderpup]

Off topic, so i wont post on this again. (In this thread) :P

 

But if you take everything on a valkerie you pay 155pts for a fast skimmer tank with extra armor(free), a lascannon, 2 large pie plates, 6 S5 shots, Front/Side armor of 12, and can transport up to 12 models that can disembark from the airship even if it moves flat out. Closest thing to that is a Land Raider as far as i know. (For a lot more points) And the guard player can take up to 9 of them if they want. (Large games obviously)

 

And how do the players in your neck of the woods work out the rules for using the blasted things. People i've played can never agree on squat. IG players want all the perks and the opponents want to nerf them into oblivion.

 

And wags? Play up your fluff/rules any way you want. Just run them past the person you're playing before hand. Most people shouldn't mind in friendly games. At least i wouldn't

Whats the rules confusion? They seem pretty straightforward to me.

 

Guard players (around here anyhow) never want to count the tail/wings as part of the vehicle. People argue over embarking/disembarking, assaulting, whether to measure from the base or the model. Silly stuff if you ask me. I just want to have fun when i play. ;)

 

Dangit you got me to post off topic again. :P

[Grey Mage]

Off topic, so i wont post on this again. (In this thread) :P

 

But if you take everything on a valkerie you pay 155pts for a fast skimmer tank with extra armor(free), a lascannon, 2 large pie plates, 6 S5 shots, Front/Side armor of 12, and can transport up to 12 models that can disembark from the airship even if it moves flat out. Closest thing to that is a Land Raider as far as i know. (For a lot more points) And the guard player can take up to 9 of them if they want. (Large games obviously)

 

And how do the players in your neck of the woods work out the rules for using the blasted things. People i've played can never agree on squat. IG players want all the perks and the opponents want to nerf them into oblivion.

 

And wags? Play up your fluff/rules any way you want. Just run them past the person you're playing before hand. Most people shouldn't mind in friendly games. At least i wouldn't

Whats the rules confusion? They seem pretty straightforward to me.

 

Guard players (around here anyhow) never want to count the tail/wings as part of the vehicle. People argue over embarking/disembarking, assaulting, whether to measure from the base or the model. Silly stuff if you ask me. I just want to have fun when i play. ;)

 

Dangit you got me to post off topic again. :P

Huh... how odd. Wings and tails arent hull, so they dont count to disembark *just ask any pilot* and they do count for getting shot at... and vehicles always measure to the model. I dont see the issues, but people will make problems over just about anything I suppose.

[Thunderpup]

Off topic, so i wont post on this again. (In this thread) :P

 

But if you take everything on a valkerie you pay 155pts for a fast skimmer tank with extra armor(free), a lascannon, 2 large pie plates, 6 S5 shots, Front/Side armor of 12, and can transport up to 12 models that can disembark from the airship even if it moves flat out. Closest thing to that is a Land Raider as far as i know. (For a lot more points) And the guard player can take up to 9 of them if they want. (Large games obviously)

 

And how do the players in your neck of the woods work out the rules for using the blasted things. People i've played can never agree on squat. IG players want all the perks and the opponents want to nerf them into oblivion.

 

And wags? Play up your fluff/rules any way you want. Just run them past the person you're playing before hand. Most people shouldn't mind in friendly games. At least i wouldn't

Whats the rules confusion? They seem pretty straightforward to me.

 

Guard players (around here anyhow) never want to count the tail/wings as part of the vehicle. People argue over embarking/disembarking, assaulting, whether to measure from the base or the model. Silly stuff if you ask me. I just want to have fun when i play. ;)

 

Dangit you got me to post off topic again. :P

Huh... how odd. Wings and tails arent hull, so they dont count to disembark *just ask any pilot* and they do count for getting shot at... and vehicles always measure to the model. I dont see the issues, but people will make problems over just about anything I suppose.

 

 

Oops. I guess i should have been a tad mor especific. As far as wings/tails the argument is usually over two things; Hanging over the edge of the table and for shooting at. (rare cover saves, and vehicle facing) And the arguments for embarking, disembarking and assaulting come from measuring from the Hull of the Valkerie or from it's base. (which) If you do hull like the book says you could never do a standard embark, disembark, or assault on the vehicle. It is like, what, 6~10 inches up in the air?

[Grey Mage]

Oops. I guess i should have been a tad mor especific. As far as wings/tails the argument is usually over two things; Hanging over the edge of the table and for shooting at. (rare cover saves, and vehicle facing) And the arguments for embarking, disembarking and assaulting come from measuring from the Hull of the Valkerie or from it's base. (which) If you do hull like the book says you could never do a standard embark, disembark, or assault on the vehicle. It is like, what, 6~10 inches up in the air?

Ahh... see we solved that one- we read through the rules, and came to the conclusion that while LOS is 3d, measuring is not. So you just go from the point of the access point but at the level of the table top... like you would for rhinos and chimeras.

[Thunderpup]

Oops. I guess i should have been a tad mor especific. As far as wings/tails the argument is usually over two things; Hanging over the edge of the table and for shooting at. (rare cover saves, and vehicle facing) And the arguments for embarking, disembarking and assaulting come from measuring from the Hull of the Valkerie or from it's base. (which) If you do hull like the book says you could never do a standard embark, disembark, or assault on the vehicle. It is like, what, 6~10 inches up in the air?

Ahh... see we solved that one- we read through the rules, and came to the conclusion that while LOS is 3d, measuring is not. So you just go from the point of the access point but at the level of the table top... like you would for rhinos and chimeras.

GM, if you could point me to some page numbers that would make life around here so much more pleasent. :P

[Grey Mage]

Oops. I guess i should have been a tad mor especific. As far as wings/tails the argument is usually over two things; Hanging over the edge of the table and for shooting at. (rare cover saves, and vehicle facing) And the arguments for embarking, disembarking and assaulting come from measuring from the Hull of the Valkerie or from it's base. (which) If you do hull like the book says you could never do a standard embark, disembark, or assault on the vehicle. It is like, what, 6~10 inches up in the air?

Ahh... see we solved that one- we read through the rules, and came to the conclusion that while LOS is 3d, measuring is not. So you just go from the point of the access point but at the level of the table top... like you would for rhinos and chimeras.

GM, if you could point me to some page numbers that would make life around here so much more pleasent. :D

Pg 3 says you always measure from the base if the model has one *wich valkyries do*, pg 66 states you measure from the access point, the only way to reconcile these two rules is to measure from the base at the spot that it meets the access point.

 

Note, while page 71 states that skimmers use a different set of rules those rules do not apply to a valkyrie, as it isnt modeled on a clear flying base.... wich that set of rules specifies.

 

Its a really, really OCD way of going about it, but if it keeps the peace and lets people act like gentleman... well I wish you the best of luck.

[stinkenheim]

OT, but this should clear up the confusion with valkyries.

 

IG FAQ

Q. How do you treat the Valkyrie base for gaming? Due to its height it seems that it is impossible for a Valkyrie to contest an objective, or for troops to disembark/embark normally.

 

A. Follow the rules in Measuring Distances in the Skimmers section in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook with the following exception: For the purposes of contesting objectives and embarking/disembarking from a Valkyrie or Vendetta, measure to and from the model’s base. For example, models wishing to embark within a Valkyrie can do so if at the end of their movement, all models within the unit are within 2" of the Valkyrie’s base.

 

So basically to embark/contest use the base. If you are shooting measure from the wepons (and use their LOS). If someone is shooting you they measure to any point of the vehicle using the usual system.

I would play it that for purposes of where the model is on the table use the base and do not penalise someone for having bit of tail/wing overhanging the board edge.

[Thunderpup]

Thank you Grey Mage and Stinkenheim.

 

Sorry Wags.