CSM Troops with Heavy Weapons

[Night Lord Dred]

Hey everyone, i was hoping to get an opinion on Heavy Weapons in a 10 man CSM squad. I was definitely one of those "No Heavy Weapons...Ever" people, but Ive started using an Autocannon + Plasma combo squad against my main opponent (who plays Eldar). He's actually a good player, unlike most random people I seem to play, and can dance around my short ranged CSM, so having another long range threat is nice. In two games it's blown up two serpeants coming after the objective.

 

I actually just realized yesterday that the CSM heavy weapons are cheap. I was running an autocannon for the price of a lascannon (which Im now going to switch to), and the entire squad costs 230 points. Ive been using it to plant myself on my objective and forcing my opponents to fight for it (which makes the extra 8 guys actually useful).

 

Now what Im asking is...why is this considered such a bad idea? I know loyalists can split and keep 5 men moving, and we have 8 men sitting still, but I find I still have more than enough running up the board. I know we're more geared for CC, but we still have to hold an objective 67% of the time. I wouldn't give every squad one, but it can help us with those armies we cant or dont want to get close to (which seems to be growing with every new codex).

 

All it needs is one lucky shot all game and it makes its points back (because really, how often does a single squad shoot their meltas?). Keep them in a rhino on the objective for extra protection or send the rhino forward while they sit in cover.

[Atheist]

I would argue that in most cases you should place your objective(s) mid table to force your opponent to close in our preferable range

 

Excluding orks and the like of course .

 

Much to my dismay I can't see heavy weapons lists working well as the whole gameplay theme of our codex is "rush 'em/burn 'em/blast 'em/chop 'em".

 

Even our obliterators are made to obliterate better at 24" and below .

 

Perhaps a cheap heavy weapon would help if a squad was to redeploy somewhere midtable-ish in cover and stay there ( so that the rest of the squad could have a chance at firing too . But you would lose at the very least a round of shooting ( say 12" deployment , 12 "movement , 2" disembark , d6" (run) movement ) . But this is a really special case . Can't say if it'd work . Or even it would be useful , for a csm troop to be static .

[The WarpGhost]

I think they're considered a bad idea as people tend to use their CSM as aggressive rush squads. The heavy weapon, as you describe it, is better suited to squads that hold static, and need to force an enemy to close, rather than closing the distance themselves. However, a single gun, especially one that is best when the rest of the squad is useless, is still not necassarily to be considered a great investment. Useful perhaps, but in the grand scheme of things not necassarily the most cost effective way to run things.

[Zeller]

I run big 15-man squads with bolters and special weapons. Putting a heavy weapon in the squad that moves up and bolters people to death isn't going to work too well. I like to work under the idea of 'always able to move.' However, I think it might work as you described in one of those 10-man objective holding units.

[Hellios]

auto-cannons rock for taking out eldar vehicles.. thats all I say :tu:

[minigun762]

Now what Im asking is...why is this considered such a bad idea?

 

I think as long as you still have 3+ CSM squads with dual specials and Rhinos, you can afford to include a heavy weapon squad as support.

 

Against things like Eldar, you're hoping that your Oblits and Termicide (or equivalents) will do the heavy lifting and your Melta CSM squads will be used to corral and gun down the remaining vehicles. With a heavy weapon squad, it gives you a little more firepower at range but you're going to have a slightly harder time trying to corral them, but it might be worth it.

 

Weapon choice, I wouldn't go to the Lascannon personally. The Autocannon is cheaper and a better multi-purpose weapon. Its also better against the AV12 vehicles that our such a pain, especially against Eldar with their S8 max

[Night Lord Dred]

That's the thing. I already have 2 other CSM squads w/meltas, 1 squad of raptors w/meltas, terminators w/ meltas...all ontop of an HQ, 3 heavy supports, and 2 other elites in 1850.

 

I chose a lascannon because the odds are better for everything other than Av10. I love autocannons, but I already have 4-6 of them. This one lascannon has a much better chance of stunning that stray dread I didnt shoot heavy support at. The cost is only 20 points, the same as a havok autocannon, and I want to make the one shot as reliable as possible (even though it is only S8 against those pesky eldar).

[minigun762]

I chose a lascannon because the odds are better for everything other than Av10. I love autocannons, but I already have 4-6 of them. This one lascannon has a much better chance of stunning that stray dread I didnt shoot heavy support at. The cost is only 20 points, the same as a havok autocannon, and I want to make the one shot as reliable as possible (even though it is only S8 against those pesky eldar).

 

I think the first time the Lascannon gains a benefit over an Autocannon is AV13 where it can actually penetrate.

We should run the numbers to be sure but from the Combi-Predators vs Oblit topic I'm pretty sure ACs beat out LCs and thats not factoring in the minor cost difference.

 

However where LCs have a bonus is against 2/3+ save units since you're punching through their armor saves and even if they get a cover save, its going to be 4+ at best. Plus with all the T4 multi-wound models out there (I hear Tyranid Warriors are 3 wounds) Insta-killing is nice.

 

So not saying LCs are bad, but if all you're looking for is a light armor kiler, I'd keep the AC.

[Night Lord Dred]

I have a chart in MS Word with the averages. Autocannons beat out lascannons at low AV due to cost efficiency and number of shots that can glance. The odds of glancing hits are 22% for autocannons and 11% for missles/lascannons. The chart doesnt paste here very well, but these are the odds for AV10-14 in order

 

 

Autocannon....0.67....0.4422....0.2144....0......0 -

Missles...........0.4489...... 0.335.....0.2211....0.1072...0

Lascannon.......0.5628...... 0.4489...... 0.335....0.2211.......0.1072

 

Add 0.1072 glancing on each lascannon & missles, and 0.215 glancing on autocannon for odds of doing some sort of damage.

 

 

However, for a mere 10 points to get the same or better odds isnt too bad considering its only 20 total, as opposed to 35

[deepstrike]

I have a las plas CSM squad for fire support. Works well enough for light work obviously not a combi pred whick seems to just lay waste to enemy armor but does give me a reliable troop choice to hold objectives. The squad works well with my zerks riding in to bust skulls.

[Atheist]

The downside to this is that , if the rhino is shaken ( a rather easy thing to do ) you can't shoot from inside .

 

And if you decide to disembark you won't shoot the lascannon .

[Corpse.]

When it comes to ranged bolter units, I like to toss in heavy bolter+plasma gun, or have the classic las+plas combo. But thats rare considering I run mostly plaguemarines now. (and no lash)

[Khaeron Baoth]

My Word Bearers have always 10 man squads. Mostly they are with lascannon and plasma. Lascannon gives squad punch against armour. Squads are now all around teams. They can fight and shoot tanks. My army has no vehicles and I use 15 stromg possessed squad. Usually I lose as many games as I win.

 

It isn´t bad idea to give chaos marines heavy weapons, but it isn´t primary option. They are still more anti-infantry squads and should be used like that. Only shooting armour then it´s only option.