2x Melta Troop squads

[minigun762]

I would say that 80% of all PM and CSM squads are decked out with 2 Meltaguns and a Power Fist.

 

It packs alot of anti-tank punch while still being useful against basic infantry. However in my attempt to mix things up and question the status quo, I wonder if its the best idea to build what is basically an anti-infantry squad into an anti-tank squad.

 

Are we not better off using our Elites and Heavies to kill tanks and having our infantry models kill other infantry squads?

 

Remember this is all in an attempt to play devil's advocate and not get too comfortable with our choices.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Well against Meqs and TeQs meltas are equally good for anti infantry as anti tank. And the ability to have our infantry deal with tanks is huge. If its infantry vs infantry and heavy support vs heavy support what happens when they have more heavy support? Yours looses, and your infantry can't deal with the remainder of theirs.

[Night Lord Dred]

I think atleast 2 squads are necessary. However, I think 3 or 4 is overkill, hence why ive been experimenting with long range (see other topic).

[JamesI]

I use one 2 melta squad/fist squad as well as 2 plasma/fist and 2 flamer/fist depending on my mood. Never bothered with more than one melta CSM squad.

[Corpse.]

2 flamer, 1 combi flamer with powerfist is decent if you rely on melee to kill tanks. 9 krak grenades slay the rear 10 tank half the time before my fist gets to strike! (9 hits, 3 roll 5-6, 1/3rd of the penetrating results is a kill) That's fine though since I run into big baddies very often these days. More or less I rely on zerks str9 powerfist attacks to do the job.

[Ridmasta]

I try and field 2 squads with 2 meltas/Fist/IoCG and a rhino for 540pts in every force i use. They are very versitile!

[chillin]

I think you'll know my answer to this. I might use 1 dual melta squad max. As you know, I like melta flamer and also 1 if not 2 dual plaz squads. I usually have 1 sometimes 2 termicide, so that usually takes care of my meltas, I see no need to put 2 of them is every csm squad, esp when there are 2 other useful spec weops out there.

[the jeske]

Are we not better off using our Elites and Heavies to kill tanks and having our infantry models kill other infantry squads?

not enough elites and hvy support in 1500 pts games . 2x2 oblits and a single termicid is not enough anti tank against list that may be runing 4+ AV models . rest is local game field meta game . If there are a lot of eldar/IG cav lists[played by good players]playing something like 2melta/1 plasma set ups or even autocanon ones could be considered , but those set ups have their own problems , an eldar play will think twice about tank shocking a melta squad , it is not the case with an autocanon one [which for range run plasma guns and not meltas] . also the problematic part righ now as the "killing infantry with our squads" go is the fact that it doesnt or it will shortlly no longer work against a lot of armies [sw , nids , soon BAs] , at least not one squad on one squad.

[Grey Mage]

For me its more of an adaptability thing... About half of my GHs run Meltas, and the other half run Plasmas... with meltas tending to be in more assault oriented positions.

 

After all, theyll be up close where those things are useful, and its not like chaos can just take a landspeeder squadron.

[The WarpGhost]

Meltas are useful because they kill heavy infantry more reliably than flamers, and unlike plasma guns you can assault after shooting. Im not so sure its purely down to melta = win, so much as it offers a good compromise on that point. Plus as several people have noted, in 1500 or less point games, anti-tank can be a bit precious. As someone who runs a unit of TSons, a dual-melta (or two single melta) squad is pretty much obligatory to make up for a 'missing' special/krak/fist squad.

[chillin]

Meltas are useful because they kill heavy infantry more reliably than flamers,

 

No they don't.

a melta has a 33% chance of missing right off the bat. Flamers are auto hit.

a melta can hit 1 guy max. a flamer can hit 7-8 guys easy.

a melta allows no armor save but still allows a 4+ cover save. a flamer allows a 3+ save but no cover save.

No one has ever killed more the 1 meq with a melta, I've killed more then 1 meq with a flamer many times. I don't remember the last time somone made all their armor saves when I hit their squad w/ a flamer.

[minigun762]

I sometimes wonder if we overload our AT weapons because we're afraid of being overwhelmed by a tank heavy armor (Raider Rush or 10+ Chimera mech IG). In the balance game, the conservative choice seems to be to pick an AT weapon instead of an AI weapon because any AT weapon can be used to kill infantry but the reverse isn't true.

 

Part of this question is how many strong sources of AT do you have to have in a competitive list? If you pack a Daemon Prince, 4 Oblits and 2 Termicide squads, is that enough to get by?

 

As someone who runs a unit of TSons, a dual-melta (or two single melta) squad is pretty much obligatory to make up for a 'missing' special/krak/fist squad.

This is a good example, if you're not playing Plague Marines or CSMs, you don't really have the option for Melta troop squads. If you get your AT power elsewhere, are you ok using the other squads as infantry killers?

[Brother Amarel]

In 1,500 I have:

 

10 CSM (MoU) - 2 x Flamer + PF

10 CSM (MoS) - 2 x Melta + PW

6 x NM - either 6 x SB or 5 x Bolter + 1 x BM

7 x PM - 2 x Plasma

 

Tends to cover most bases.

[Brother Nihm]

disclaimer: personal theory.

 

Melta squads are substitutes for our lacking Heavy Support options, not taken so much out of fear of being overwhelmed by high AV targets.

 

It's all a question of what if,

 

Random scenario - Loyalist Dread users fear our Melta squads, so that's one (or more) tar-pit unit(s) we don't have to worry about.

If there's armor in the table, you want to Krak it (pun intended!).

 

Looking at the Heavy and Fast Attack options: Havocs are overpriced, Predators are so so and defilers are for killing Hordes/Chaos Zilla. Bikes are junk, and Raptors are outperformed by regular CSM with Meltas.

So,

Bar Oblits we have no reliable + efficient long range or fast (think Attack-Bike, Landspeeder equivalent) anti-tank options, so we swap in some Meltas on the back-bone squads to offset this.

 

Because what if?

[minigun762]

Looking at the Heavy and Fast Attack options: Havocs are overpriced, Predators are so so and defilers are for killing Hordes/Chaos Zilla. Bikes are junk, and Raptors are outperformed by regular CSM with Meltas.

So,

Bar Oblits we have no reliable + efficient long range or fast (think Attack-Bike, Landspeeder equivalent) anti-tank options, so we swap in some Meltas on the back-bone squads to offset this.

 

Because what if?

 

Well said Brother Nihm, you bring an excellent point. My thought though is we do have some options that aren't listed above, the best being Termicide and Daemon Princes.

I think Termicide is really our own equivalent choice for the MM Bikes/Speeders. They are roughly the same price and about the same killing power overall.

 

Maybe its leftover from my Daemon army, but I feel that Daemon Princes are really best spent ripping tanks apart. We don't need alot more MEQ killing and we don't want to throw a DP into a group of TH/SS anyway but smashing a Leman Russ apart or knocking out a Land Raider is usually a much better use of their powers (plus a faster way to get your points back if that matters).

[Brother Nihm]

I think Termicide is really our own equivalent choice for the MM Bikes/Speeders. They are roughly the same price and about the same killing power overall.

True but I doubt that they were intended (by the designers) to be used like that. They are random though, whereas bikes and speeders are consistent (if you play them right). ;)

 

Maybe its leftover from my Daemon army, but I feel that Daemon Princes are really best spent ripping tanks apart. We don't need alot more MEQ killing and we don't want to throw a DP into a group of TH/SS anyway but smashing a Leman Russ apart or knocking out a Land Raider is usually a much better use of their powers (plus a faster way to get your points back if that matters).

I couldn't agree more. CSM/Berzerkers/Plague Marines usually carry the day when it comes to crushing MEQs.

[Night Lord Dred]

Looking at the Heavy and Fast Attack options: Havocs are overpriced, Predators are so so and defilers are for killing Hordes/Chaos Zilla. Bikes are junk, and Raptors are outperformed by regular CSM with Meltas.

So,

Bar Oblits we have no reliable + efficient long range or fast (think Attack-Bike, Landspeeder equivalent) anti-tank options, so we swap in some Meltas on the back-bone squads to offset this.

 

Because what if?

 

Im going to have to disagree entirely. I have absolutely no idea why people have this "Oblits or nothing" train of thought. I will never take them again. They are, in my opinion, 100% useless (exception: Pure lash list). Everything they do can be done better by something else, and everything else has much, much better survivability.

 

I have no idea how havocs are overpriced. 200 points for 4 missles/autocannons, icon, extra bodies and a rhino. All for less than 3 oblits. They are easily the most reliable light transport killer we have. Heavy tanks are pointless to shoot from far away.

 

Same with the pred. No idea how a 130 point, AV13 tank (with more shots than 225 points of oblits) is useless. 4 high strength shots. The pred for CSM is 10x better than the one for the Space Marines, even though they are the exact same (SMs even cost less), purely because of how the rest of the army plays. We dont care (most of the time) if our pred gets stunned because were moving up the field. SMs care because theyre trying to kill armies like CSM before they get to them.

 

And with that said, no, I dont think its because of heavy support, I think the reason CSM need the meltas is the exact same reason every other army in the game has them - its the only way to effectively take down AV13 and 14 outside of CC. Then you look at the options for what they can take:

 

Flamers - Useless in an allcomers army in my opinion.

Plasma - Can't assault, 15 points

Meltas - AP1, assault, can blow up a tank and assault its contents, only 10 points.

Heavy Weapons - Cant have every squad sitting still all game.

 

Hmm, which one goes best with an all out assault playstyle?

[The WarpGhost]

This is a good example, if you're not playing Plague Marines or CSMs, you don't really have the option for Melta troop squads. If you get your AT power elsewhere, are you ok using the other squads as infantry killers?

I have 2 Predator Destructors w/ LC sponsons, 5 Bikes w/ 2 plasmaguns, and a DP (though I dont regard either of the latter as specifically AT units); I dont consider that adequate enough to completely skip meltaguns (especially as my Troops are the scoring units and may not be able to rely on other AT support even if there was more). As Nihm says, its a "what if?" choice as much as obvious practicality; I dont think meltaguns are inherently the best option, but they're conservatively good.

 

No one has ever killed more the 1 meq with a melta, I've killed more then 1 meq with a flamer many times. I don't remember the last time somone made all their armor saves when I hit their squad w/ a flamer

An argument I use to justify why Fire Dragon's should pack a heavy flamer on the Exarch. I should have put quotation marks around the 'reliably'; I didnt mean it in a way that was so literal, nor was it meant to be taken out of context anyway. However, I've not infrequently found the flamer to bounce on armour saves even if it gets through the other hoops; perhaps my opponents are just unsuaually fortunate with their saves (though saying hitting 8+ guys is easy is overly optimistic in my experience). Also, the flamer remains situational; the melta does not.

 

Im going to have to disagree entirely. I have absolutely no idea why people have this "Oblits or nothing" train of thought. I will never take them again. They are, in my opinion, 100% useless (exception: Pure lash list). Everything they do can be done better by something else, and everything else has much, much better survivability.

 

I have no idea how havocs are overpriced. 200 points for 4 missles/autocannons, icon, extra bodies and a rhino. All for less than 3 oblits. They are easily the most reliable light transport killer we have. Heavy tanks are pointless to shoot from far away.

 

Same with the pred. No idea how a 130 point, AV13 tank (with more shots than 225 points of oblits) is useless. 4 high strength shots. The pred for CSM is 10x better than the one for the Space Marines, even though they are the exact same (SMs even cost less), purely because of how the rest of the army plays. We dont care (most of the time) if our pred gets stunned because were moving up the field. SMs care because theyre trying to kill armies like CSM before they get to them.

 

And with that said, no, I dont think its because of heavy support, I think the reason CSM need the meltas is the exact same reason every other army in the game has them - its the only way to effectively take down AV13 and 14 outside of CC. Then you look at the options for what they can take:

 

Flamers - Useless in an allcomers army in my opinion.

Plasma - Can't assault, 15 points

Meltas - AP1, assault, can blow up a tank and assault its contents, only 10 points.

Heavy Weapons - Cant have every squad sitting still all game.

 

Hmm, which one goes best with an all out assault playstyle?

I agree on this (though I dont regard Havocs as desirable next to Predators, but then I have a specific task in mind which isnt Havoc's forte so it horses for courses). The meltagun, as I likewise said before, is a flexible fit.

[chillin]

(though saying hitting 8+ guys is easy is overly optimistic in my experience). Also, the flamer remains situational; the melta does not.

 

Jeske argued that b4 as well, saying he never got more then 3 or 4 max under a flamer template. I have no idea why. I put my flamer on my flank and shoot across the enemy squad, pretty much covering most of the squad usually. 7 or 8 guys (or more if hoard) is not overly optimistic at all in my experience.

The melta is situational too, how useful is melta vs orks or hoard nids ? (great I killed 1 ork really, really, reallly dead B) )

Like I said in my earlier post, we need meltas, but it's hardly the only spec weop I'm going to take in my whole army.

[the jeske]

it is not that it never happens . it [sometimes does] but not very offten the differenece between 12" double tap range and [am probablly wrong here] 8-9" of flamer range template is huge. Now I dont have any math to prove that , but when everything moves 12" or 6"[again am going purlly empirical here] to offten catchs just a few guys. Now on raptors on bikes or when someone does drive by in a rhino it works better . But is it worth taking those units [raptors or bikes] or taking sub standard squads [5 man pms naked for drive by] ?

 

The melta is situational too, how useful is melta vs orks or hoard nids ? (great I killed 1 ork really, really, reallly dead msn-wink.gif )

A it gives a chance to instant kill a nob biker or nid warrior . B it gives a chance to wound those nasty support units all horde armies have [be they Lemmans or MC] . a flamer does one thing ,it wounds [when your in range and at least techniclly horde armies should be faster then normal ones] en mass when your in range and you really need to use 2-3 when hiting t4 models .

[SamaNagol]

Chaos lists don't go like for like anyway. You don't send tacticals to kill tacticals, you send Berzerkers. You don't send vehicles to kill vehicles, you use Oblits or Termicide. You shouldn't be going like for like, you should be using your specialist assets accordingly.

 

2 units of CSM with Melta and Fist in a Rhino are good for objective grabbing. The Plague Marines with 2xPlasma are what you sit on base with.

[Brother Nihm]

Im going to have to disagree entirely. I have absolutely no idea why people have this "Oblits or nothing" train of thought. I will never take them again. They are, in my opinion, 100% useless (exception: Pure lash list). Everything they do can be done better by something else, and everything else has much, much better survivability.

Keeping in mind I said efficient long range anti-tank, I should probably have added flexible as well. That you have a beef with Oblits is fine - my own beef is that they aren't fluffy for many Legions outside of the IW - but it doesn't change the fact that they are the most flexible and in most cases hardiest (if used right - e.g. terrain sniping) Heavy Support option available to us.

 

I have no idea how havocs are overpriced. 200 points for 4 missles/autocannons, icon, extra bodies and a rhino. All for less than 3 oblits. They are easily the most reliable light transport killer we have. Heavy tanks are pointless to shoot from far away.

Havocs are overpriced simply because to be efficient they have to stack weapons, alternatively you can mix ML's with Las etc. but it isn't worthwhile in a tournament setting where you have to be prepared to take on geared lists and it still makes them static/unable to react. This is bad when many missions use variable game length but also due to the fact that you give control of your unit to the opponent (he chooses what they can shoot at) - this can be both good or bad for you - bad if you're against a highly mobile opponent. To give Havocs a cover save (note Oblits come with a invulnerable save) you have to stick them in heavy cover (where they should be anyway if not assault oriented imho) and to make them anything but static you have to give them a Rhino, which means turns lost not firing their costly weapons as well as making them cost even more. When in cover, and in sufficient numbers to make a difference (6+ models), they are still vulnerable to return fire, assault, pinning, you name it.

Obliterators are not. Their only real weakness is instant death and high volumes of mid strength (isn't almost everything that? :)) return fire. This you can limit with terrain sniping, lucky deep strikes. etc.

 

Same with the pred. No idea how a 130 point, AV13 tank (with more shots than 225 points of oblits) is useless. 4 high strength shots. The pred for CSM is 10x better than the one for the Space Marines, even though they are the exact same (SMs even cost less), purely because of how the rest of the army plays. We dont care (most of the time) if our pred gets stunned because were moving up the field. SMs care because theyre trying to kill armies like CSM before they get to them.

The Predator does only have more shots than the Oblits when it's stationary, it is only tough to crack when 50% of it is obscured - which also lowers the number of shots it can make and it can be taken out in one lucky hit - most often disabled for a turn - again a highly inflexible unit.

 

Edit: I use a Predator in my own list - love the model. :)

 

Due to their mechanics, ability to synergize with other units like Termicide, CSM Fist squads, Berzerkers etc. and because of their multi-role potential Obliterators are the most efficient Heavy Support choice in our current Codex. The other choices are "specialists" - which come with too many vulnerabilities compared to Obliterators. It doesn't make them bad per se, it only makes them less efficient at doing what they're supposed to be doing.

 

 

My 2 Kraks

[IronWinds]

Its been drilled but our heavy supports are not on par with what we need in anti-tank. Even oblits. A las has a 1/27 chance of killing a LR. A melta is closer to 1/4. So against land raiders I normally DS my oblits anyways.

 

And I have gone a step further. 2 meltas, combi melta, + a PF. On 2 squads minimum. For apoc I'm building dreadclaws packed full of meltas for the same reason.

 

For anti infantry... they suck. Flamers are better against about everything, terminators included. Meltas however are better against multi-wound enemies for the obvious reason.

 

Meltas are extremely reliable at killing tanks. Pretty plain and simple. For the argument, why not let your heavies handle tanks and your troops handle troops... I say this, "Chaos marines are some of the best troops in the game, so let your CSMs handle the troops and tanks, leave your predators behind and just take even more CSMs."

[minigun762]

For the argument, why not let your heavies handle tanks and your troops handle troops... I say this, "Chaos marines are some of the best troops in the game, so let your CSMs handle the troops and tanks, leave your predators behind and just take even more CSMs."

 

Thats why I like the way you think! :rolleyes:

 

Part of the reason I brought this topic up was whenever I have tried to make fluffy Cult armies from Slaanesh and Tzeentch especially, its hard to get away from the security of dual Melta/Fist CSM squads backing you up. Some armies just can't have those kinds of units, which makes us look elsewhere for our tank killers.

[Vissah]

I used to play with three squad melta, flamer, fist but I changed the flamer to a melta just to have some more kick in the squad.

Ofcourse the flamer is good and will hit a lot of models when placed right but I just got sick of moving the squad up and shooting the melta at a tank and missing.

I need two meltas to have a bigger chance of taking it out :lol:

I love my squads now three duo melta, fist, IoCG in a Rhino and you got a big thread moving up the table against every army you play.