2x Melta Troop squads

[Drudge Dreadnought]

And the same people will tell you the only way to play is Oblits/PMs/Lash. Understand that there are open minded posters who contribute to new ideas, and there are closed minded posters who have certain opinions about the codex that will not change.

 

There are no new ideas anymore. Everything about this codex was math and theory hammered out within months of its release - thats a couple years ago now. There is only the re-hashing of old ideas. Do not be so quick to judge those who appear close minded. Take me and Jeske for example. If asked, either of us are going to say that oblits/pms/lash are the only way to play competitively. But in reality we both actually play fairly fluffy slaanesh lists.

 

There is a difference between what is best and what works. These discussion threads are great for figuring out exactly how good/bad certain things are, but we all already know that oblits/pms/lash is the best. We're not going to suddenly find another new tournament build.

[Night Lord Dred]

And the same people will tell you the only way to play is Oblits/PMs/Lash. Understand that there are open minded posters who contribute to new ideas, and there are closed minded posters who have certain opinions about the codex that will not change.

 

There are no new ideas anymore. Everything about this codex was math and theory hammered out within months of its release - thats a couple years ago now. There is only the re-hashing of old ideas. Do not be so quick to judge those who appear close minded. Take me and Jeske for example. If asked, either of us are going to say that oblits/pms/lash are the only way to play competitively. But in reality we both actually play fairly fluffy slaanesh lists.

 

There is a difference between what is best and what works. These discussion threads are great for figuring out exactly how good/bad certain things are, but we all already know that oblits/pms/lash is the best. We're not going to suddenly find another new tournament build.

 

And thats a perfect example of what Im talking about. Oblits/PM/Lash are not the only way to play. Its a (the) simple internet build that is effective and requires no strategy (aka thinking) to play. It is a one trick pony. I dont care if you or jeske think that its the only way. You give the impression that you are somehow more qualified or that it's a fact that there is one list. That's ignorance.

 

There are new ideas because the game of warhammer is always changing. There are new ideas because all you ever read about is the same oblit spam garbage. If it was truly mathhammered out then it would be obvious that there are other options with better odds.

 

Its closed minded. I know because I used to be that way. Then I opened my mind, thought about it a little, and realized that there are, indeed, other (and imo) more effective builds. Theyre also a lot more fun to play, which is bonus.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Oblits/PMs/Lash still dominate the chaos tourny scene. If you were right we'd be seeing other stuff more often. You think the tournament champions are running that list because they came on here and saw me and Jeske advocating it? No. We are advocating it because thats what the tournament champions are winning with. It is also fully supported by mathhammer.

 

Yes there are other functional playstyles. But lash/pms/oblits is the best all comers list the codex can field. Jeske and I are not closed minded. You may notice that the majority of the discussion and mathhammer threads over the past few months that have brought to light things like the effectiveness of the AC/LC preds have been started by me questioning oblits. The thread was extensively contributed to by jeske.

 

CSM does have other functional lists and units. It is simply a matter of the degree of that functionality. Oblits/lash/pms is still the best.

[Night Lord Dred]

Tourny scene? What tourny scene? This isn't the NFL. Tournaments vary depending on size, place, rules, etc. It is all relative, I can win local tournies with all zerker lists if I wanted to. Its not a shock that O/P/L is popular when that's all you see on the internet. The list is so easy to use and is effective (no denying that) that it lets beginners win games, so of course there will be a lot of players playing the list. Most players are casual/bad players, so a simple list that is found all over the internet is going to be popular.

 

Of what few big tournaments there have been recently, Chaos was no where to be found at the top.

 

So again, you state OPL is the best CSM list. It doesnt matter if you started some topics (all it does is make me question your absolute stance if youre questioning oblits), that's noht the problem.

 

If OPL dominated every game and won (almost) everytime, then I can see how one could say, with absolute confidence, that it is the best list. However, it doesnt... and it's not. There are problems - extremely susceptible to long range fire, T5 princes are extremely vulnerable, low target saturation, low number of models, low (but versatile) fire output. Im not saying my list or any other list wont have problems, or implying that the list is bad, but OPL is hardly perfect and is a one tactic pony.

 

Personally, I played oblits, zerkers, PMs, defilers, etc. Now? I dont use any of them anymore, and I will never go back. It was an old post by either Chillin or Minigun talking about 4 autocannon havoks that really got me thinking.

 

 

So the point of all that relating to the topic is: Think for yourself. Popular =/= Best. I dont think 2x meltas all over are as necessary as I thought before, because it leaves your army one dimensional and predictable, leaving no room for strategy (or really anything other than moving straight at the enemy). Moving is the most important part of the game, and being predictable to the enemy (especially if youre using lash and oblits) moves the game out of your hands and into your opponent's ability to counter it. The game is determined by your opponent, not you, at that point.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

The tourny scene are the top tournaments. GTs, Ard Boyz, etc.

 

And of course oblits/PMs/lash has weaknesses. Every list does. It wouldn't have to be a 100% uber win list to be the best the codex can offer. It just has to have less issues than the others. And remember, its the best all comers. Not the best in specialist areas.

[Night Lord Dred]

I dont think you understand "allcomers" (...or maybe I dont). Just because a list contains a unit that is more versatile (oblits) does not mean it is a better "all comers" list. Just because I take Havoks who are good at taking out low AV, it doesnt mean my list is specialized. Why? Because with the points I save on Havocs (who outshoot oblits in what they do), I buy something else that also does something else better than oblits do it. Thats the logic - I have 2 seperate units for about the same price as oblits doing two specialized things better than them. Sure, it's harder to play because I have to work in synergy with all my units to make up for that versatility, but when I do I put out far more shots, increasing my odds, yada yada yada.

 

My list has had many, many small tweaks as I continue to consider "What if X happens?". This heavy weapon ordeal is my latest. What if it's an objective game? What armies am I going to be more conservative against, or which am I going to all out rush? When I figured that out, I came to the conclusion that 1 lascannon heavy weap CSM squad was a good idea. I made a thread, got mixed reactions, but tried to take reasoning out of the pros and cons.

 

A specialized army would be taking, for example, a ton of heavy bolters against footslogging orks.

 

Anyways, I dont want to lock this thread, and Ive gone off topic way too much, so maybe pm me or start another topic?

[Grey Mage]

No night lord, Im pretty sure he means the force as a whole is the best all comers list- durability from the plaguemarines, firepower from the lash/oblits combo backed up by bolters from the PMs again, with a smattering of CC to clean up the enemy and a couple support units to round things out like a defiler or a couple cheap CSM squads to hold objectives. None of those units are nessecarilly the most generalist of units, but they do come together quite nicely.

 

Personally though, I think alot of it has to do with the metagame of higher profile tournaments. You see alot of a particular list because so and so was the first person to place well with it and then another so and so gets first with it and then everyone follows because something has been found that works.

 

*shrugs* but theres more than one way to skin a cat, and different people have different playstyles. While some of the people here have bored me to tears with their Lash/PM/OB lists and rants before, I note that many of them steadfastly use other lists because it better suits their playstyle.

 

A shotgun might be the best at clearing rooms but if yo cant handle the recoil....

 

Anyways, on the subject of dual melta squads- theyre nice, theyre useful, but the way I see it theres four ways to set up a squad:

 

Dual Meltas

Dual Plasmas

Melta/Flamer

Dual Flamers

 

Of those, dual flamers is in my opinion worthless for the most part. Id say if you were running six full squads that itd be a good idea to throw it in as the last squad, and I think Id rather have two Melta/Flamer squads instead. Dual Plasma squads make great objective holders and decent assault squads, while dual meltas make excellant assault squads but only decent objective holders.

 

So, I figure one would probly do well with a 3:2 ration of melta to plasma squads, with Melta/Flamer squads being used about 1/3 of the time youd take a melta squad, or about half the time if you are expecting a horde rich enviroment.

[minigun762]

There are no new ideas anymore. Everything about this codex was math and theory hammered out within months of its release - thats a couple years ago now. There is only the re-hashing of old ideas.

 

I wouldn't say thats entirely true. As each new Codex comes out, we should naturally revisit our lists and determine if changes have to be made.

 

Personally with Mech IG and Space Wolves being released, I feel that Lash Princes have taken a hit in effectiveness. If this trend continues, I wouldn't be surprised to see them being replaced.

 

Now that might not be a huge change by itself, but coupled with possible changes due to Tyranids or other codex and we could see a shift in the standard Chaos lists.

 

Or we end up with the same lists and altered tactics, who knows?

[the jeske]

Because with the points I save on Havocs

wait . how do you save points if 2x8 autocanon havocks cost more then 2x2 oblits , specially as with the havocks you have to run more anti LR meta [as str 7 weapons no matter how offten they shot , do nothing against av14]? oblits do anti horde when you play against horde , they do anti tank and anti meq when you play against meq , they help counter elder/tau/IG skimers . autocanons dont do that [on top of being static harder to hide etc] .

 

 

 

you say that people playing chaos win with lash/oblit [i would rather say it is DP/oblit, but the difference is really minimal] because most players are bad or dont know to play ? I disagree with you here . the thing is the the dp+oblits + cms/zerker-pms are the most flexible ones. doesnt mean they are ideal , they have problems with always poping transports and the fact that each new army punishes the chaos build or negates their good aspects[like good psychic powers , better and cheaper troops etc] . the thing is , yes you can take havocks or autocanons in csm units . it is legal , but unless you play alot against eldar /tau and IG cav the set up aint good enough when you play the rest of the gaming world that uses meq . the sole fact that you have a dead match up against LR rush builds puts a huge question mark about viabilty of such army set ups[and before you bring out the "but other chaos builds like DG and eldar have auto lose match ups too , but people still play them" argument let me remind you that having one outlose match up against a non widelly played codex and having a bad match up against a build you are possible to see out of many sm dexs are two different things ] .

Or we end up with the same lists and altered tactics, who knows?

the shift from lash princes happened a lot sooner. when the new sm codex came out. you could no longer lash 5 man sm minimax and destroy them in one turn [both because math is against you when your trying to wound 10 guys and because the rise of mecha as army for all]. the thing with chaos is that it has no new options . other dex can think "well nids play with this MC and deep strike them , lets tie them up with a cheap BC squad that will kill it in 2-3 turns ] . no unit in the chaos dex can match the power or flexibilty of a unit of csm/pms with plasma/melta or a unit of oblits or a warp time or lash dp . the only change I could imagin is people moving away from termicid at 1750 pts , playing more or just oblits or making one termicid squad[4-5man], but with plasma to punish both BA and the MC nids will run . but again 1750 pts is not a standard size for tournaments at least not in mainland europe .

 

Popular =/= Best.

yes of course :) because circus or nidzilla were not the best way to play eldar or nids [or they werent popular to play]. I understand the need to argue about stuff , but m8 either you think that each and every chaos tournament player is stupid . if there were better ways to play chaos at 1500 pts and people were not complet retards , I think they might have found out it till now . specially considering there are so many different comunities and tournament settings .

Its a (the) simple internet build that is effective and requires no strategy (aka thinking) to play.

stupid builds > build with gimmicks that may not work. It was always like that. look at eldar circus . It could be played by an 11 year old with a paper card to tell him what to shot and what turn to disembar and charge and it would probablly work 7 times out of 10 , even against people that knew how the eldar list worked and run meta against it. there is one moment when a list full of gimicks[we call them black horse] is better then normal one. when a codex is fresh out and not everyone had the time to playtest against it . Remember how demons were ?most of the internetz called them broken . they won a few tournaments [and offten the reports started with "and so I got the wave I wanted 4 out of 4 times] , where are they know ? they were gone even before the IG codex was leaked .

 

 

But I will agree[i think] with Mage here . Aside for normal meta game there is something I would call local or higher meta game . I mean I dont know if out of 4 top eldar players two sold their armies , one got sick and the last switched to IG in holland and it is just not worth to meta game eldar builds there . But at the same time here I take out my wifes eldar and we get a vist from teams from poland and czech rep both with strong eldar players and suddenlly there are 3+ eldar armies in top 8 . to know such things is part of a tournament players life , but when you test your armies with your team you take the standard [aka the one you are most possible to see] builds. you dont check what happens [or rather you dont alway have the time for that] , if you fight against a 4 scorpion 2 harli 3 wright lord build +avatar and no seer or what happens if you run in to a chaos biker list. At the same time playtesting an odd build offten doesnt give good resaults . you can over meta stuff or dont notice/know what special rules/scenarios the tournament has [and as a rule the more complicated many unit combos and less flexible builds suffer from those the most].

 

 

 

by the way [i think I should sig this or something ] while I do say that the 2 dps pms/zerker/csm oblits build is the best chaos has people have to remember that I play a NM water build .

[Ashe Darke]

There are no new ideas anymore. Everything about this codex was math and theory hammered out within months of its release - thats a couple years ago now. There is only the re-hashing of old ideas.

I wouldn't say thats entirely true. As each new Codex comes out, we should naturally revisit our lists and determine if changes have to be made.

Precisely. Pending how things are in the new Nid codex I might actually start taking a Rot Prince. I've not done it before and at the moment I feel I can get away with it despite what people say, but in a month's time I might be eating those words. The other thing is this psychic attack the Zoanthropes get. It might not make Raiders viable against them.

[Night Lord Dred]

Theres no way Im quoting all that as most of it is just, once again, saying "Oblits are the best". So Im just going to highlight a few points

 

how do you save points if 2x8 autocanon havocks cost more then 2x2 oblits , specially as with the havocks you have to run more anti LR meta [as str 7 weapons no matter how offten they shot , do nothing against av14]? oblits do anti horde when you play against horde , they do anti tank and anti meq when you play against meq , they help counter elder/tau/IG skimers . autocanons dont do that [on top of being static harder to hide etc] .

 

-Preds are cheaper. I meant overall heavy support. Regardless, even if they were the same, they are more efficient at what they do. Oblits are jack of all trades, master of none.

-LRs are dealt with the same way everyone else deals with them, meltas. However, for the sake of argument, with 6 oblits you have 6 lascannons spread across 3 units. I have 4 lascannons across 2. However, I also have 6 autocannons to go along with that, all of them shooting every round. Multimeltas have to have the LR within 12", which would be insanely stupid of your opponent to do, so it is moot.

-On the last sentence, the point is to have more reliable shooting that is in synergy throughout your army. You cannot break down havocs as a single units because they depend on how the rest of the army plays.

 

However, youre still wrong because the autocannon is the best anti MEQ heavy we have (always assume in cover) other than heavy bolter (useless). The autocannon can take down light vehicles (almost every army), MCs (Nids), and footslogging infantry. The only thing it doesnt do well is heavy tanks, but I wouldnt even waste lascannons on those.

 

you say that people playing chaos win with lash/oblit [i would rather say it is DP/oblit, but the difference is really minimal] because most players are bad or dont know to play

 

No, I said it's easy enough to play that even bad players/casuals (which is the majority of the W40k players) can use it and still be effective. Please read.

 

. it is legal , but unless you play alot against eldar /tau and IG cav the set up aint good enough when you play the rest of the gaming world that uses meq . the sole fact that you have a dead match up against LR rush builds puts a huge question mark about viabilty of such army set ups

 

Or chaos, or orks, or nids, or every other army in the game. Like I said, odds say that autocannons are the best MEQ killers we have (other than HBs). And are you seriously taking a 150 point unit in isolation and telling me Im going to automatically lose against LR rush because of it? There will always be autocannon targets. Everything else will destroy the LRs. Its called army synergy, a concept I dont think a lot of people on this board understand. Taking the best all around troops is great except theyre expensive and not as reliable at anything. Again, jack of all trades, master of none. Ill take 3 masters doing different things than spamming 3 "ok" units.

 

if there were better ways to play chaos at 1500 pts and people were not complet retards , I think they might have found out it till now . specially considering there are so many different comunities and tournament settings .

 

Haha, you would think so, but that isnt the case. You ever heard of starcraft? 3 armies. Only a few (relatively speaking) units and build orders. Yet all those competitive players find new builds years and years of constant playing after the game came out (and im not talking about patches). Ive played other games competitively where millions of players would play the easiest, but not necessarily the best way, and get dominated by players who know what theyre doing. The fact is there are people like you stating Oblits are the best way to play. How many people read this topic ...go to their store, play (and most likely win) with the list, and then pass it on to other players.

 

Nids, for example, are outdated and have a lot of units with useless rules or way over costed units. I know this because I play them as well (well, waiting for the new dex now so I can actually use gaunts). This is not the case for chaos. We have some of the best choices in the game that are backed by other solid units.

 

Sorry, I dont give people credit, especially when I see the pros and cons, and the odds of what these other units are capable of.

 

stupid builds > build with gimmicks that may not work

 

That's fine, except that's not what not using oblits means. Making a Thousands Sons army is an army with a gimmick that may not work (AP3). Autocannons can take down almost anything. Its the equivalent of Lootas, except tougher and more accurate to make up for numbers. Unlike Orks, Chaos can destroy LRs with almost everything, so one unit without them isnt going to cripple anyone (or even come close to it).

[minigun762]

Well lets face it, 95% of the time when we're discussing a new Chaos army, what we're really debating is our Heavy choices (and sometimes Terminators/Chosen).

 

In the end I think the difference between most of our Heavies is situational at best.

This means that personal playstyle mixed with local meta-game are going to be a far bigger factor then whether one is better or worse. If I played 2 Chaos lists that were identical but list A had 3 pairs of Oblits and list B had 3 Combi-Predators, they're going to feel like the same basic thing to me.

 

Having said that, I think Oblits are a good starting point for newer players because they are good multi-taskers. The funny thing is I've never used them and I have no intention to.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Theres no way Im quoting all that as most of it is just, once again, saying "Oblits are the best". So Im just going to highlight a few points

 

He says a lot of things other than that.

 

-Preds are cheaper. I meant overall heavy support. Regardless, even if they were the same, they are more efficient at what they do. Oblits are jack of all trades, master of none.

-LRs are dealt with the same way everyone else deals with them, meltas. However, for the sake of argument, with 6 oblits you have 6 lascannons spread across 3 units. I have 4 lascannons across 2. However, I also have 6 autocannons to go along with that, all of them shooting every round. Multimeltas have to have the LR within 12", which would be insanely stupid of your opponent to do, so it is moot.

-On the last sentence, the point is to have more reliable shooting that is in synergy throughout your army. You cannot break down havocs as a single units because they depend on how the rest of the army plays.

 

And oblits have plasma cannons. Its simply a matter of anti light armor vs anti meq/teq. We can get anti light armor from lots of sources in the chaos list. Only 1 other unit can provide plasma cannons and we all know how dreads are. Here's that list synergy you were talking about. The point of the oblits is the plasma cannons, which also have amazing synergy with lash.

 

However, youre still wrong because the autocannon is the best anti MEQ heavy we have (always assume in cover) other than heavy bolter (useless). The autocannon can take down light vehicles (almost every army), MCs (Nids), and footslogging infantry. The only thing it doesnt do well is heavy tanks, but I wouldnt even waste lascannons on those.

 

ACs are not very efficient anti-meq. Plasma cannons are simply better even without lash. Their only advantage is against light armor.

 

There will always be autocannon targets. Everything else will destroy the LRs.

 

Its still that many less meltas you will have to handle the LRs. And in LR rush lists there aren't going to be any autocannon targets except the actual infantry. And ACs are not efficient vs MeQ and TeQ. Oblits are simply better here. Meltas are better for taking down the raiders, then plasma cannons better for taking down their contents.

 

Haha, you would think so, but that isnt the case. You ever heard of starcraft? 3 armies.

 

StarCraft is a completely different situation. The game is not comparable to 40k even if they are both strategy.

[Night Lord Dred]

And oblits have plasma cannons. Its simply a matter of anti light armor vs anti meq/teq. We can get anti light armor from lots of sources in the chaos list. Only 1 other unit can provide plasma cannons and we all know how dreads are. Here's that list synergy you were talking about. The point of the oblits is the plasma cannons, which also have amazing synergy with lash.

 

Lash doesnt work on vehicles, lash doesnt work if the prince is dead, lash doesnt work if hes outside of 24". What youre left with are 6 shots at long range. Id rather not depend on a T5 3+ model though, thanks.

 

ACs are not very efficient anti-meq. Plasma cannons are simply better even without lash. Their only advantage is against light armor.

 

I have never seen people twist things and state "facts" that are just not true. MCs? 4 autocannon shots vs 1 plasma cannon...Ill take the autocannons (and even 4 vs 1 theyre still cheaper). Sv4+? For sure Ill take autocannons. A plasma cannon isnt going to kill more than 1 or 2 on average without lash. Seeing as how I run 2 dreads with them (yep, dreads, another excellent choice that you would never know about if you just went by the internet), I know how disappointing they can be when shooting into cover. Very very situational.

 

Its funny though, because the most important step is still getting those troops out of the transports for our boys to assault them...and what does it best?

 

 

Its still that many less meltas you will have to handle the LRs. And in LR rush lists there aren't going to be any autocannon targets except the actual infantry. And ACs are not efficient vs MeQ and TeQ. Oblits are simply better here. Meltas are better for taking down the raiders, then plasma cannons better for taking down their contents.

 

Oh please, if a raider is within 12" youve already lost that battle. Youre getting assaulted. No, ACs are not for taking out TeQs, shocking. Luckly it's only 150 points and I still have 1700 other points to deal with it. If termies deepstrike in I have 2 plasma cannons to take them out among other things, more than enough to cripple them.

 

Hell, the entire point of this topic is the idea of taking less meltas because we already have far too many spread across the army.

 

StarCraft is a completely different situation. The game is not comparable to 40k even if they are both strategy.

 

More BS. Number of players in competitive StarCraft > competitive Warhammer, while having less options. And they play everyday all day. Yet they still find new builds. Ive seen it happen across many many games. Popular =/= best.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Lash doesnt work on vehicles, lash doesnt work if the prince is dead, lash doesnt work if hes outside of 24". What youre left with are 6 shots at long range. Id rather not depend on a T5 3+ model though, thanks.

 

Most things in the game don't work on vehicles, don't work if the user is dead, and don't have more than a 24" range. What's your point? Plasma cannons rock with or without lash. Now i just think you are straw manning.

 

I have never seen people twist things and state "facts" that are just not true. MCs? 4 autocannon shots vs 1 plasma cannon...Ill take the autocannons (and even 4 vs 1 theyre still cheaper). Sv4+? For sure Ill take autocannons. A plasma cannon isnt going to kill more than 1 or 2 on average without lash. Seeing as how I run 2 dreads with them (yep, dreads, another excellent choice that you would never know about if you just went by the internet), I know how disappointing they can be when shooting into cover. Very very situational.

 

Each Autocannon averages .37 wounds vs meqs. Plasma cannons average .83 per hit, .41 if they are in cover. And even without lash its easy to get more than 2 under a template. With lash its easy to get 5+.

 

For MCs plasma (or las) cannons only lose to ACs when the MC is 4+. Against common 4+ infantry AC will still lose if its horde or if lash is present.

 

Why are we talking about the effectiveness of ACs exactly? Where have i said ACs aren't great? I've only said they are inefficient at killing meqs. What i have said is that oblits are better due to the flexbility added by plasma cannons. Care to argue against my actual arguments?

 

Oh please, if a raider is within 12" youve already lost that battle. Youre getting assaulted. No, ACs are not for taking out TeQs, shocking. Luckly it's only 150 points and I still have 1700 other points to deal with it. If termies deepstrike in I have 2 plasma cannons to take them out among other things, more than enough to cripple them.

 

Or its withn 12" because you deep struck them in. Or because you deployed far away, they moved up, then you moved up bringing them within 12". Are you just being silly now?

 

More BS. Number of players in competitive StarCraft > competitive Warhammer, while having less options. And they play everyday all day. Yet they still find new builds. Ive seen it happen across many many games. Popular =/= best.

 

Once again, Starcraft isn't Warhammer. Starcraft is a much better designed and balanced ruleset with different metagame. Are you going to bring in football strategies next? Is the claim you are making that if one game allows for a constant stream of new tactics that they all do?

[Night Lord Dred]

My god, this argument is mindboggling. I think you guys should learn how to read the content before you make silly posts.

 

Most things in the game don't work on vehicles, don't work if the user is dead, and don't have more than a 24" range. What's your point? Plasma cannons rock with or without lash. Now i just think you are straw manning.

 

Again, learn to read. We're talking about oblits relying on princes to lash. Otherwise you only have, at max, 6 shots (provided none get killed, which is likely). Plasma Cannons do not rock on with or without lash, are you kidding me? Half are flat out going to scatter away, see below for math.

 

Each Autocannon averages .37 wounds vs meqs. Plasma cannons average .83 per hit, .41 if they are in cover. And even without lash its easy to get more than 2 under a template. With lash its easy to get 5+.

 

For MCs plasma (or las) cannons only lose to ACs when the MC is 4+. Against common 4+ infantry AC will still lose if its horde or if lash is present.

 

Why are we talking about the effectiveness of ACs exactly? Where have i said ACs aren't great? I've only said they are inefficient at killing meqs. What i have said is that oblits are better due to the flexbility added by plasma cannons. Care to argue against my actual arguments?

 

-Except templates scatter and hit nothing. Average goes down. Key word average, again the reading thing. 4 autocannon shots is 0.74 dead. 1 Plasma cannon will hit 3 * .5 scatter * .84 * .5 = 0.63. Obviously you can get more or less with them depending on placement, but certainly 3 will be average.

-Autocannons beat plasma cannons out the same way they beat everything else out - number of shots. Its called point values, theyre the balancers.

-Care to argue against what actual argument? You mean when you said "Autocannons only beat out plasmas against light vehicles". Considering this has gone on to "plasma cannons are the best!!1", I will simply say please read.

 

Or its withn 12" because you deep struck them in. Or because you deployed far away, they moved up, then you moved up bringing them within 12". Are you just being silly now?

 

-Great, Chaos deepstriking oblits. Fantastic idea to perform a role that the basic troops can perform. As if we dont get completely outnumbered with each new book coming out.

-Youre asking if Im silly yet are honestly telling me a LR, which has an 22 (12+6+2+2 pivot) inch assault range got meltad by a unit with, at max (if lucky), an 18 inch multi melta.

 

Once again, Starcraft isn't Warhammer. Starcraft is a much better designed and balanced ruleset with different metagame. Are you going to bring in football strategies next? Is the claim you are making that if one game allows for a constant stream of new tactics that they all do?

 

Game design has absolutely nothing to do with either of these examples. The book has many, many combinations of units. This is a fact. Funny you bring it up - Football, another game, does allow for new tactics. Though it originated in college football, the "Wildcat" offense, something never seen before, was adopted by the Miami Dolphins last year and they went on to win their division after going 1-15 the previous year. Football, a game being played by people across the US for decades at all sorts of competitive levels, gets a new idea. Yet a Warhammer book, out for only 2 years, is conquered.

 

Games, regardless of type, change and have new ideas presented to us.

 

If you think that this book is mastered and are ignorant enough to think of all the fantastic options, there is only 1 list that stands out on top, you should seriously reevaluate your analyzing skills. Like I said, I had a very "traditional list" that I put very little thought into myself. Now Ive actually cracked open the book myself and found another very effective way to play. Key word: another. I get the feeling with all the poor reading skills going around that people think I said the OLP list is bad.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I'm not going to respond to your arguments because of the way you are acting. Look back through this conversation and see how you are becoming increasingly more rude. You seem to have too much of an emotional investment in this and it is impeding your debate skills. This is a dead horse. I was willing to go over it all again if it was a polite conversation, but like this i am not. Search feature can find just about everything there is to say about this issue anyhow. Someone else can carry on if they care that much.

[the jeske]

-Preds are cheaper. I meant overall heavy support. Regardless, even if they were the same, they are more efficient at what they do. Oblits are jack of all trades, master of none.

preds are also easier to negate . if they get stuned they do nothing . they also have to stay static , cant deep strike against eldar/tau /IG cav . also oblits are not masters of non . they are better then a pred at anti horde , they are better at anti tank when they deep strike with MM[specially as they cant be countered while doing that] . yes preds do have more shots [2 las+autocanon vs 2las] , but it is harder to use them [harder to hide , if stuned do nothing , oblits even if one dies still can shot, with the way hth works against tanks in 5th preds arent more resilinent then oblits].

 

Multimeltas have to have the LR within 12", which would be insanely stupid of your opponent to do, so it is moot.

and unless he runs inq +mystics there isnt much he can actually do about deep striking oblits and terminators . it is not being stupid, it called having close no way to counter stuff. how do you counter a vulkan build with 2 drop dreads when you play a LR rush build [other then maybe puting stuff in to reservs]?

 

Sv4+? For sure Ill take autocannons.

?? how is an auto canon better against +4 cover then a plasma canon small blast . am not getting this.

 

 

-Great, Chaos deepstriking oblits. Fantastic idea to perform a role that the basic troops can perform. As if we dont get completely outnumbered with each new book coming out.

of course because it is better to deploy a dread or oblits on the table against eldar or IG cav or and have them blown up sky high . while when they deep strike , they actually help against those build . yeah having a unit that against some builds can start on the table and shot against others deep strike is bad , while having static ones eat each shot and each charge is much better .

 

 

 

A plasma cannon isnt going to kill more than 1 or 2 on average without lash.

m8 I dont know what kind of boards do you play on and how much terrain is used there, if orks and ig armies can spread 2" on each and every model . also plasmas kill more then auto canons , because when you pop transports [even the horde ones] the unit disembarks in base to base formation , you dont need lash to hit more then 2 models.

 

If termies deepstrike in I have 2 plasma cannons to take them out among other things, more than enough to cripple them.

unless the dread is stuned or goes crazy . you says that the "ifs" dont matter , but the list your advocating is full of them . stupid and fool proof builds work always , smaller chance of something going wrong is always better.

 

And they play everyday all day

when the w40k tournament sceen was most active here the top teams we had here tested everything everyday , even now when we play more warmachine/horde we still play 2 days each week[+tournaments] . and it is not special , the teams in germany and holland did the same . I dont know how it looks in other countries , but I am making an assumption , that in other parts of the world tournament players do the same.

 

 

Games, regardless of type, change and have new ideas presented to us.

ok m8 show the 1500 build that runs 2 dreads and havocks in the same builds and how you play it against other lists like. No one is omni potent, I can be wrong . maybe you really did find out a build no one else did see . I would be more then happy to see it.

[Brother Nihm]

*puts his tinfoil hat on*

 

That the topic has diverged to cover the effectiveness and comparison between our Heavy Support option is OK as it relates to the original topic but, Drudge and NL Dred, please keep it civil or alternatively go ahead and put each other on ignore. Any personal attacks or flame-baiting will trigger a warning increase.

[Night Lord Dred]

I'm not going to respond to your arguments because of the way you are acting. Look back through this conversation and see how you are becoming increasingly more rude. You seem to have too much of an emotional investment in this and it is impeding your debate skills.

 

Uhh, excuse me? So you calling me silly on purpose, telling me Im strawmanning, etc. is nothing then? Sure, please read may not be the nicest way to put it, but atleast it relates to the discussion, unlike blunt insults or looking at someone as if they were inferior. And now Im emotionally involved...are you serious? It's an internet forum. Please tell me what is at stake. You call me rude yet then make absolutely insulting posts like this one. Anyways, as Nihm as said, this is best left alone, especially if youre going to continue to act like this.

 

@Jeske

 

preds are also easier to negate

 

This simply isnt true. The odds of a lascannon stunning a pred is worse than the odds of killing an oblit. Like I said before, I am happy when people shoot my predators from far away. Odds are, unless it's heavy shooting, Ill be ok. If I am stunned for one turn, it doesnt bother me when I know they just took a shot instead of a rhino. Next turn? Theyre back in the game and my opponent has to shoot them again, except the rhinos are 12" closer now. However, I will say against nids being stunned will be a little more important because of the nature of the matchup (staying back instead of rushing forward).

 

also oblits are not masters of non . they are better then a pred at anti horde , they are better at anti tank when they deep strike with MM[specially as they cant be countered while doing that] . yes preds do have more shots [2 las+autocanon vs 2las] , but it is harder to use them [harder to hide , if stuned do nothing , oblits even if one dies still can shot, with the way hth works against tanks in 5th preds arent more resilinent then oblits].

 

Deepstriking has some pretty big risks, and always has consequences. Youre left with a short ranged army for 3 turns with less bodies on the field (in an already small army). With a pred youre going to get those las/ac shots in and help your meltas in rhinos move up the field. Im just not seeing it, especially when I can shoot AV12 and do damage purely due to # of shots, shots youre missing out on.

 

Anti horde the entire army is good at. Long range fire, not so much, which is why the pred is fantastic (much better than the SM pred)

 

?? how is an auto canon better against +4 cover then a plasma canon small blast . am not getting this.

 

4 autocannon shots vs 1 plasma cannon. I did the math in the above post, which I dont think is unreasonable at all.

of course because it is better to deploy a dread or oblits on the table against eldar or IG cav or and have them blown up sky high . while when they deep strike , they actually help against those build . yeah having a unit that against some builds can start on the table and shot against others deep strike is bad , while having static ones eat each shot and each charge is much better .

 

Its about having too many targets to shoot at. Things are going to get blown up regardless if you DS or not. Dreads are hardly static. Preds and havocs are far more durable than oblits to Long range fire. Everything is shooting and/or moving up the field, which also means theyre more likely to get into CC, and more likely to destroy/stun the enemy. Yes, DSing is nice to guarantee it is destroyed, but what happens when you DS onto the field and your entire army is on fire already?

 

m8 I dont know what kind of boards do you play on and how much terrain is used there, if orks and ig armies can spread 2" on each and every model . also plasmas kill more then auto canons , because when you pop transports [even the horde ones] the unit disembarks in base to base formation , you dont need lash to hit more then 2 models.

 

Youre right, when transports are destroyed plasmas are great. But in my opinion, you dont need 6 of them to do this. Again, its opportunity cost. Im constantly making little tweaks to my list to find that balance. This situation is exactly why I took the 2 plasma cannons on the dreads. Let me be clear here, when I was referring to PCs before, Im talking about just shooting a random unit.

 

unless the dread is stuned or goes crazy . you says that the "ifs" dont matter , but the list your advocating is full of them . stupid and fool proof builds work always , smaller chance of something going wrong is always better.

 

Its fine. I dont think of the dreads like that. The crazy table just puts a tiny dent in the odds that it will do what it needs to do. That 16%/33% chance is just the first barrier to get past. Odds are atleast 1 dread will be fine. Once the dread is fine, the odds are good enough from there on out to do its job. Basically I think of the % of the overall performance. Getting fire crazy can be no different than charging and getting 0 kills. However, the overall odds that it will get in there and wreck something is good enough to take. Taking 2 mitigates both the reliable odds (since both will be next to one another, its likely that atleast one will do what needs to be done) and the odds of destroying your own unit. Killing 2 birds with one stone essentially.

[Cale]

Night Lord Dred

 

Games, regardless of type, change and have new ideas presented to us.

 

This is factually untrue. Checkers, for instance, is solved. There are, literally, no possible moves or scenarios which haven't been already been considered and tried. Tic Tac Toe has been solved for ages.

 

Games only have potential to present us with 'new ideas' in proportion to their complexity and the amount they've been studied. Most games will, with sufficient study, eventually lose the ability to present us with new ideas, because everything the game can present will have already been seen. This situation is basically what we mean when we say that a game is solved. While not all games can be solved, 40k is of the type which could be (though it's worth noting that each time the rules are changed, such as a codex release or a new edition, or even an errata, the game would have to be re-solved).

 

While I don't think 40k is 'solved', it's certainly possible that the community of chaos players has actually come up with the strongest possible all-comer's chaos list. Such a thing can be done, and it could even be the case that the list they've come up with has remained in its position despite subsequent changes to the rules. Your assertion that they have necessarily failed because the task itself is impossible is absurd, and your support for that assertion is false.

 

Please try again.