Legion of the Damned and the Gate of Infinity

[Isiah]

If you argue its not lose but also not conferred to the librarian, what difference will it make if he has the rule or not?

 

Well if the LotD unit decides to reroll their scatter when deploying from reserve – what's the attached Librarian supposed to do? As by RAW he is subject to whatever the initial scatter was as Aid is not conferred upon him. And he can't arrive from deepstrike on his own – he has to form up in the same concentric formation with the rest of the incoming unit.

[Morticon]

If you argue its not lose but also not conferred to the librarian, what difference will it make if he has the rule or not?

 

Well if the LotD unit decides to reroll their scatter when deploying from reserve – what's the attached Librarian supposed to do? As by RAW he is subject to whatever the initial scatter was as Aid is not conferred upon him. And he can't arrive from deepstrike on his own – he has to form up in the same concentric formation with the rest of the incoming unit.

 

Hes attached. It doesnt need to be conferred onto him. He is part of the squad and it is the squad that scatters with a specific rule- while its not conferred onto him, him not having the rule will not mean that he will prevent the squad from using that rule because it simply has not said that anywhere.

 

The rules don't contradict in anyway as far as I see.

 

The attached IC has not gained anything, he is simply following the squad with that ability.

 

If we are trying to argue this ability is either lost, or now does not work because there is an IC without that ability, then we are making up or adding rules that arent there. In fact, this is further backed up by the paragraph on page 48 that says (paraphrased) - in some cases the IC or the unit may lose their special rule as a result of the IC joining - see USR for more details. These specific cases (like infiltrate in the example) or Heroic Intervention in the case of vanguard

mention the abilities being lost!

 

Just to clarify, I agree it does not confer - im arguing that it does not need to confer as it is not lost when an IC joins.

 

You say what happens to the librarian - I say "nothing", as you dont roll his scatter, you roll scatter for the squad.

The squad has that ability and (as mentioned) nothing has shown us that it stops working because there is a model without that ability.

 

Thoughts?

[rat of vengence]

If we are trying to argue this ability is either lost, or now does not work because there is an IC without that ability, then we are making up or adding rules that arent there. In fact, this is further backed up by the paragraph on page 48 that says (paraphrased) - in some cases the IC or the unit may lose their special rule as a result of the IC joining - see USR for more details. These specific cases (like infiltrate in the example) or Heroic Intervention in the case of vanguard

mention the abilities being lost!

What about a unit of vanguard on foot, joined by a terminator chaplain. They win combat, but can they sweeping advance? I would say no, as the chaplain can't do it, so the squad he is attached to can't do it. This isn't mentioned as it says on p48 though.

Now lets look at our librarian and LotD. I would say that they are similarly restrained from their re-roll because the librarian doesn't share that rule.

 

RoV

[Morticon]

Totally different situation.

In the situation you raised an IC with termy armour in a PA squad has to break a rule to sweeping advance. "Terminators cannot peform a sweeping advance".

 

Since that cannot be done it doesnt matter if the squad can, cause we'd be breaking a rule to do it.

 

LotD scatter with an IC attached breaks no rule.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Totally different situation.

In the situation you raised an IC with termy armour in a PA squad has to break a rule to sweeping advance. "Terminators cannot peform a sweeping advance".

 

Since that cannot be done it doesnt matter if the squad can, cause we'd be breaking a rule to do it.

 

LotD scatter with an IC attached breaks no rule.

 

Which is the reason why they make it very clear that this is the case in the Vanguard Veterans Heroic intervention.

[rat of vengence]

Totally different situation.

In the situation you raised an IC with termy armour in a PA squad has to break a rule to sweeping advance. "Terminators cannot peform a sweeping advance".

 

Since that cannot be done it doesnt matter if the squad can, cause we'd be breaking a rule to do it.

 

LotD scatter with an IC attached breaks no rule.

I dunno about that. A Librarian can't re-roll scatter dice. Sounds like a similar situation to me.

 

RoV

[Morticon]

Totally different situation.

In the situation you raised an IC with termy armour in a PA squad has to break a rule to sweeping advance. "Terminators cannot peform a sweeping advance".

 

Since that cannot be done it doesnt matter if the squad can, cause we'd be breaking a rule to do it.

 

LotD scatter with an IC attached breaks no rule.

I dunno about that. A Librarian can't re-roll scatter dice. Sounds like a similar situation to me.

 

RoV

 

The librarian isnt making a scatter roll, the squad is. Whether the IC is there or not, the squad still takes that action.

There are no rules to say that this ability ceases to work because an IC joins. If we make the argument that the squad must lose this ability then we are adding a rule.

 

All that the rules say is that the ability is not conferred and in some cases the ability will cease to work and this will be detailed in the relevant sections.

 

In the case of the IC in termy armour, the IC needs to make a sweeping advance too- hence the breaking of a rule (which specifically prevents him from doing so).

[Isiah]

Just to clarify, I agree it does not confer - im arguing that it does not need to confer as it is not lost when an IC joins.

 

You say what happens to the librarian - I say "nothing", as you dont roll his scatter, you roll scatter for the squad.

The squad has that ability and (as mentioned) nothing has shown us that it stops working because there is a model without that ability.

 

Thoughts?

 

Hehe well I'm not saying the squad's losing anything – they can reroll all they like. Yes the Libby is attached to that squad so normally yes he'd use the same scatter as the squad he's attached to. My beef, is that should the squad reroll, by RAW the Libby can't accept the rerolled scatter result as he doesn't have the reroll ability (either by having the special rule himself or by having it confered upon him).

 

I completely understand where you are coming from Mort regarding "as you dont roll his scatter, you roll scatter for the squad" but to me it seems he's gaining an unfair advantage by, err, piggybacking on a special rule designed for a specifc unit to which he's not entitled.

 

That's enough from me on this.

[Frosty the Pyro]

The way I see it, you wouldnt be able to attach the librarian to the squad to deepstrike with them in the first place, as they would not be entering the same way. The librarian deapstrikeing, and the LotD using aid unlooked for. they are distinct rules in the same maner infiltrate and deepstrike are. If you attached that librairan to a squad with infiltrate he would not be able to infiltrate with them. A single unit in reserve (which the IC + LotD would be) must enter play the same way. As no one else can enter play the way LotD does, and LotD does not have the option to enter play in a normal way, the Librian would not be able to join the LotD untill after both are on the board.

 

 

Alternitively if you want to be lenient (though I can think of no good reason to be in this situation) you could instead consider them to be akin to Run! and Fleet. With run being deapstrike, and fleet being aid unlooked for (esentialy being different strengths of the same ability). they could both deapstrike together (moving 1d6 in the shooting phase or the annalogy), but would not be able to assault (rerolling the scatter) due to the librarian lacking the ability.

[Ashe Darke]

That's the first sensible thing I've seen so far in this thread.

[Morticon]

That's the first sensible thing I've seen so far in this thread.

 

Thats a bit harsh considering rules and sensibility are (sadly) two very distinct things <_<.

 

If you want to argue sense then the OR isnt the place - Amicus is.

 

 

Frosty, as "nice" an idea as that may be its wrong and youre unfortunately making up rules.

Yes, LotD use "aid unlooked for".

If you check in the big rule book -you wont find a rule named "aid unlooked for".

What you will find is that under this rule in the SM dex it says - veeeerry clearly:

 

"The legion of the damned always start the game in reserve and always arrive using Deep Strike rules."

 

Fluff wise- yes.

Tooootally a different thing.

Rules wise (which is what we're here to discuss) - exactly the same as a libby in termy armour/jump pack.

 

So your first sentence Frosty:

" The way I see it, you wouldnt be able to attach the librarian to the squad to deepstrike with them in the first place, as they would not be entering the same way. The librarian deapstrikeing, and the LotD using aid unlooked for."

is flawed.

 

 

If you attached that librairan to a squad with infiltrate he would not be able to infiltrate with them.

 

Yup - as I noted before theres a rule covering this. And if we do that, we break a rule. We break no rules with this situation.

 

 

A single unit in reserve (which the IC + LotD would be) must enter play the same way.

Pg number for that rule?

 

As no one else can enter play the way LotD does, and LotD does not have the option to enter play in a normal way, the Librian would not be able to join the LotD untill after both are on the board.

They enter via Deep Strike with a funky name. Plenty things can enter via deepstrike.

 

Alternitively if you want to be lenient ....

Why make up additional rules? Its not the same, because fleet is like Infiltrate - its lost in that situation - and its NOTED as being lost. This is not.

 

 

 

Isiah hit the nail on the head here- >

 

"...to me it seems he's gaining an unfair advantage by, err, piggybacking on a special rule designed for a specifc unit to which he's not entitled."

 

This is exactly the case. He's gaining an unfair and (possibly not intended??) advantage in this situation. This however is what becomes our reason for debate , not the rules.

Once again, the OR is not to discuss whether its fluffy or fair but what the rules say.

We are arguing against it because its counter-intuitive to the established fluff and thats a bad reason to argue against it.

 

We need to argue against the rules as they are - and so far that hasnt been done.

 

Apologies to anyone that feels that im just being a belligerent rules lawyer, ignoring the arguments of others :blush: I really am taking them into account, there has just not been anything to disprove the arguments that I have set out yet!

Cheers,

Mort.

[Ashe Darke]

Seahawk - the rule you quoted goes on to say "check the universal special rules for more detail". As a result I think this applies to that only.

See this is where we differ. I think it's point to some of the possible examples, the ones in the book itself being easiest as it never refers to rules in other books as far as I know. With no other examples in the book to use all it can use is USR which can look like it's purely referring to them.

 

I don't think the passage means just them, just to go look at them for examples. The USR bit seems pretty clear itself about the adding of ICs and the interaction of USRs so why add this bit as well? Unless it doesn't just mean USRs. USR also mentions how there is a difference between special rules and universal special rules. Seen as the section on ICs and special rules only mentions special rules and not exclusively USRs, just says to go there for examples, I think it's on about all special rules.

 

That's my take on it anyway.

[Frosty the Pyro]

power wepaons and lightning claws are different things, yet the rules for lightnig claws say they are power weapons, and then adds an adition ability (a reroll). Aid unlooked for does the exact same thing. We have precedence that giveing it differt name, and adding an ability, makes it a different thing, regardless of how similar those things are.

[Morticon]

Seahawk - the rule you quoted goes on to say "check the universal special rules for more detail". As a result I think this applies to that only.

See this is where we differ. I think it's point to some of the possible examples, the ones in the book itself being easiest as it never refers to rules in other books as far as I know. With no other examples in the book to use all it can use is USR which can look like it's purely referring to them.

 

I don't think the passage means just them, just to go look at them for examples. The USR bit seems pretty clear itself about the adding of ICs and the interaction of USRs so why add this bit as well? Unless it doesn't just mean USRs. USR also mentions how there is a difference between special rules and universal special rules. Seen as the section on ICs and special rules only mentions special rules and not exclusively USRs, just says to go there for examples, I think it's on about all special rules.

 

That's my take on it anyway.

 

Ashe, while that may be true, there are a few issues with this having any relevance.

As mentioned in the 2nd post on the 2nd page, above, this ruling only allows us to ascertain whether or not a special rule is conferred or not.

The only time that this abilities are lost are when they are stipulated as being lost.

We have all agreed that the Librarian does not have this ability conferred.

However, the point I am making is two fold. One, the rules state that "in some cases they will lose this rule" - I have maintained that we are not shown that we lose this rule at all!

Secondly, we break no rules by the IC benefiting from the squads reroll. (different from the Libby having the ability!!)

In fact, we would be breaking a rule (or making one up) to demand that the ability was lost because the squad was joined by an IC because that has not been supported by the rules.

 

FrostyThePyro said:

 

power wepaons and lightning claws are different things, yet the rules for lightnig claws say they are power weapons, and then adds an adition ability (a reroll). Aid unlooked for does the exact same thing. We have precedence that giveing it differt name, and adding an ability, makes it a different thing, regardless of how similar those things are

 

Frosty - Doesnt matter how different or similar these things are, or what their names are.

What matters is how the established rules interact with them.

 

Rule 1: (pg 95 sm dex) The legion of the damned always start the game in reserve and always arrive using Deep Strike rules."

 

Rule 2: (pg 52 rb) All jump infantry may enter the battle by "deep strike"

 

Rule 3: (pg 95 rb ) Some units' special rules allow them to enter play via tunneling, teleportation, flying or some other extraordinary means. If you wish to use this "deep strike option". then units must begin the game in reserve.

 

Rule 4: (pg 94 rb) ..he must specify to the opponent if any of his independent characters left in reserve are joining a unit...

 

 

Up until that point there can be no question whatsoever that an IC can join the LotD (assumin the IC can Deep Strike).

 

From this point it reverts to the contentious issue of whether or not the special rule/ability of the reroll is lost.

To which I refer you to the argument at the top of this page or to my response to Ashe.

[Ashe Darke]

I'm not saying that the unit should lose it. I think I'm with what Isiah was saying in that you scatter the Librarian taking note of the point he scattered from. This is where he ends up as the rule has not passed onto him as I said, based on how I've interpreted the rules on ICs vs special rules. Then if you want you can re-roll the scatter for the unit and they scatter from the point the Librarian scattered from as they have this special rule. If not then place them around the Librarian. Of course the Librarian must have terminator armour to do this as the section for deep striking refers to it as special rule and that does not confer onto him.

 

It says that the Librarian doesn't get the rule as far as I'm understanding the interaction of ICs and special rules which is exactly what happened in what I described above.

 

But I do see your point. They become a unit. If it said something like 'so you can re-roll the scatter dice for the unit if you want' then things would be done and dusted. It does say though 'Legion of the Damned are renowned to arrive when they are most needed...' implying that it applies to their unit. But that's very on the edge of turning fluff into rules.

 

I think if someone did do this you'd have to present both sides of the argument to your opponent and see if you can come to an agreement and if not then randomly pick. They seem to be making a few mistakes with these guys. First the cool yet illegal (now fixed) sergeant and then this.

[gibbro]

For those that have examined the USRs on pg 74-76 BRB. There is a possible answer to this question, if you paid close attention to precedence.

 

Every ability not marked with an * does not change how an IC or the squad can normally act. IE. An IC with Relentless joins with a squad without Relentless. Both have rapid fire weapons. The IC fires and the squad does not, so they may assault. If the squad had fired as well, the IC could charge but the squad can't. The rule that the IC can only leave the unit in the movement phase means he stays put. Neither unit is doing anything it can't normally do on its own.

 

The * abilities would allow either the unit or the IC to perform an action he wouldn't normally get to do. IE. An IC joins a scout unit in reserve. They lose the scout ability because the IC would not normally be allowed to outflank or take a scout move. In this case the IC would do something he couldn't normally do.

 

Ask yourself, does the ability of the unit let the IC perform an action it isn't normally allowed to do? For Aid Unlooked For, yes it does. That would mean you couldn't re-roll the scatter because the Libby wouldn't normally be allowed to do it.

 

Are there cases when a unit doesn't have an ability and gains it when joined by an IC? Yes, but in every case it specifically says that the ability is confered. IE Stubborn pg 76 BRB.

[Ashe Darke]

Ahh but the IC does gain Fearless by joining the unit. 3rd sentence on the Fearless section pg75.

 

This special rule is gained by any independent character joining a fearless unit.

 

So your point doesn't really work

[gibbro]

Ok I'm tired. Thanks for the catch Ashe, I removed the rather long and somewhat confusing last point.

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

I am sorry for bringing up this dead thread, but after reading through it all. My head could not determine the final answer.

 

Can the gate of infinity and "Aid unlooked for" re-roll scatter be used together during the movement phase?

[jeffersonian000]

I'm pretty sure we decided yes, they can re-roll scatter as the LotD special rule applies to the unit as a whole, and is not negated by the Librarian's presence in the unit per all the BRB quotes listed above.

 

SJ

[timmytool]

I am sorry for bringing up this dead thread, but after reading through it all. My head could not determine the final answer.

 

Can the gate of infinity and "Aid unlooked for" re-roll scatter be used together during the movement phase?

 

after reading myself I think it's a no

 

reasions

 

1 GOI is not arriving via DS (to trigger AUF reroll) - but this is a gray rule area

2a AUF does not confer upon the librarian

2b the LOTD can reroll but as the librarian can't, no one benefits from the rule. If a action needs to affect the whole unit, if one member cant be affected or cant do the action on its own merit then no one in the unit can (just like sweeping with a IC termi or charging with a IC with relentless and one member of the sq fired a rapidfire weapon)

3 the unit is not DS themselves it is the librarian doing the actions and bringing them along for the ride

4 I'm sure their are other reasons but no.2 cant be disputed

[BOBMAKENZIE]

2b the LOTD can reroll but as the librarian can't, no one benefits from the rule. If a action needs to affect the whole unit, if one member cant be affected or cant do the action on its own merit then no one in the unit can (just like sweeping with a IC termi or charging with a IC with relentless and one member of the sq fired a rapidfire weapon)

 

Thats abit of an odd arguemnt Timmy.

 

The unit cannot sweeping advance I would argue because of the movement rules. The Termie cannot make the sweeping advance and units need to move at the speed of the lowest member.

 

As well USRs are treated quite specifically and Relentless applies only to models that possess it. For example a Relentless IC can still move and fire a heavy weapon and even assault afterwards even if the rest of his squad cant. (They cant fire because it would disallow their part of the assault but still)

[jeffersonian000]

As we covered, the Librarian does not require the ability to be conferred, as it is a unit roll not a Librarian specific roll. AUF applies to generic Deep Striking, which does occur when GOI works. As such, there is nothing in the rules that specifically denying the use of AUF in the given situation.

 

SJ

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

As we covered, the Librarian does not require the ability to be conferred, as it is a unit roll not a Librarian specific roll. AUF applies to generic Deep Striking, which does occur when GOI works. As such, there is nothing in the rules that specifically denying the use of AUF in the given situation.

 

This pretty much seems like a solid answer enough for me. Thanks for the help in clarifying this for me.

[maturin]

As we covered, the Librarian does not require the ability to be conferred, as it is a unit roll not a Librarian specific roll. AUF applies to generic Deep Striking, which does occur when GOI works. As such, there is nothing in the rules that specifically denying the use of AUF in the given situation.

 

SJ

 

After having reviewed this thread, something still doesn't seem to add up here.

 

To recap, the relevant rule states "Unless specified in the rule itself, the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."

 

What is being suggested above is that the Librarian doesn't need to have the rule conferred - he just gets the benefits! To me, isn't this essentially having the rule conferred upon him? True he doesn't get a separate re-roll himself, but he still benefits from a second re-roll (the unit's). Or to put it another way, since all IC's become part of the unit they join, the rule has been modified to "The character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit, but the unit's special rules are always conferred upon the character." (* USR's excepted).

 

This seems to be in complete contradiction (in both spirit and wording) to the original rule.