Legion of the Damned and the Gate of Infinity

[timmytool]

As we covered, the Librarian does not require the ability to be conferred, as it is a unit roll not a Librarian specific roll. AUF applies to generic Deep Striking, which does occur when GOI works. As such, there is nothing in the rules that specifically denying the use of AUF in the given situation.

 

SJ

 

After having reviewed this thread, something still doesn't seem to add up here.

 

To recap, the relevant rule states "Unless specified in the rule itself, the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."

 

What is being suggested above is that the Librarian doesn't need to have the rule conferred - he just gets the benefits! To me, isn't this essentially having the rule conferred upon him? True he doesn't get a separate re-roll himself, but he still benefits from a second re-roll (the unit's). Or to put it another way, since all IC's become part of the unit they join, the rule has been modified to "The character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit, but the unit's special rules are always conferred upon the character." (* USR's excepted).

 

This seems to be in complete contradiction (in both spirit and wording) to the original rule.

 

hence the reasoning for my above statement.

 

this is why I believe the USR "move through cover" is lost by units that dont fully comprise of MTC models, it's not so much because of the rule that a unit moves at its slowest models move but the fact that it would make inconsistent movement methods in the unit(role 2d6 for the IC and 3D6 for the MTC unit and pick the lowest hightest between the two). With a mandatory movement like DS the rule that is the most restrictive on models should be used(like the movements rule on restricting to the slowest model) and in this case being able to re-roll adds less restriction to the mandatory movement so should not be used over the normal DS rules.

 

think of it this way would you think it appropriate if it was the IC that had the rule

"AUF: special character always starts the game in reserve and always arrives by DS, even in missions that do not normally use these rules. note that special character is renown for arriving where ever he is most needed, so you can re-roll the DS scatter dice if you wish."btw just to make it interesting he phases in using stolen necron tech not a jump pack(as in another DS method to anyone he could join)

 

would it be appropriate if a assault sq claimed the re-roll if he joined them in reserve or in this threads GOI scenario?

[jeffersonian000]

Two big issueskeep popping up: 1) the USR ruling on how unit abilities interact with ICs and vis versa, and 2) codex trumps BRB.

 

In the BRB, we are given very specific (yet poorly worded) guidelines regarding how unit special rules interact with the ICs thatoin the unit, yet in Codex Space Marines, we are given specific examples of which ability are confered to an IC and which aren't. Since Codex does trump BRB (per the BRB), and Heric Intervention specifically does not confer to ICs while Aid Unlooked For notes no such restriction, then we can safely use Aid Unlooked For while a Librarian that may deep strike is attached. In addition, since we are discussing Gate of Infinity, which does allow the Librarian + attached unit to deep strike during game play rather than only from reserve, the Librarian does not require a TDA upgrade if he joins the LotD after they arrive on the table (but does require TDA if he is starting in reserve with the lotD unit).

 

In the end, it doesn't matter how the argument gets spun, the result is still the same: the Codex Space Marines supports the use of Aid Unlooked For when an attached Librarian using Gate of Infinity. This does not violate any existing rule, be it BRB or codex.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

Actually, it doesn't support the use. It just neglects to mention any restriction. Which is different.

 

It could be an oversight on GWs part. It could be intended. We don't know for sure. :)

[jeffersonian000]

No, its not. The Codex uses a format that states which unit special rules specifically do not confer to ICs, and the BRB specifically identifies which USRs do not confer to ICs, we have enough information to determine that Aid Unlooked For is usable with ICs attached, if the ICs can deep strike. Gate of Infinity is a mechanism that allows a unit to deep strike. As Codex trumps BRB, there are no conflicts.

 

SJ

[maturin]

The Codex uses a format that states which unit special rules specifically do not confer to ICs...<edit>

 

That's quite an assumption to make, when your sample size of example rules is 2. Yes, HI states specifics when we're dealing with IC's. AUF does not. But taking that single rule as an example to apply to all other rules in the Codex is a bit of a stretch!

 

USR's really aren't applicable to this discussion at all, since no rule we're discussing is a USR.

 

Really all that matters is the rule from the BRB I quoted earlier: "Unless specified in the rule itself, the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."

 

 

And the applicable question is: is deriving a benefit from a rule (ie rerolling scatter) the same as having the rule conferred? I'm arguing yes - so no reroll for the IC from my point of view.

[jeffersonian000]

And I'm arguing no - the IC's presence has no effect on the reroll from my point of view.

 

SJ

[maturin]

And there - we've summed up this thread in a nutshell. :D

[BassWave]

I apologize for re-animating this thread, but I would like to ask whether this rule had been faq'd yet? I plan on using this combo and would like a solid ruling on this problem.

[Grey Mage]

If you want to see if its been FAQ'd then youll need to go look at the GW FAQs yes?

 

Read these.

[BassWave]

Thanks. I guess the debate will rage on then regarding this rule...

[Mezkh]

I'd say there is precedent to be followed here:

 

Q: If an Independent Character on a warbike joins

Snikrot’s unit before the game starts, can they still turn

up using the Ambush special rule? (p62)

A: Yes.

[BassWave]

But that is an IC granting a special rule to the unit. The question with the lotd is whether a unit can grant an IC a special rule

[dswanick]

I'd say there is precedent to be followed here:

Q: If an Independent Character on a warbike joins

Snikrot’s unit before the game starts, can they still turn

up using the Ambush special rule? (p62)

A: Yes.

But that is an IC granting a special rule to the unit. The question with the lotd is whether a unit can grant an IC a special rule

Actually, it's an IC (Snikrot) granting the special rule to his unit which then grants it to another IC attached to them - so, like the Space Wolves Behind Enemy Lines special ability, it does show that special rules applied to a unit carry over to the ICs which are part of the unit without the rule.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

I'd say there is precedent to be followed here:

Q: If an Independent Character on a warbike joins

Snikrot’s unit before the game starts, can they still turn

up using the Ambush special rule? (p62)

A: Yes.

But that is an IC granting a special rule to the unit. The question with the lotd is whether a unit can grant an IC a special rule

Actually, it's an IC (Snikrot) granting the special rule to his unit which then grants it to another IC attached to them - so, like the Space Wolves Behind Enemy Lines special ability, it does show that special rules applied to a unit carry over to the ICs which are part of the unit without the rule.

 

Snikrot is a named/special character not an IC. :3