did chaos cults really lose out?

[Khaeron]

After reading through a few of the topics/posts on these forums i see a recurring feeling that chaos cults got ripped off with their current dex. i have to say(being a night lords player originally) that most of the changes didn't really affect me, but they affected my brothers army hugely. So began an epic whinge fest on his behalf about how gw ruined his army and how he can't be fluffy anymore. now he doesn't play tournament and i am playing in my first sometime in june(its a friendly if that can be said about tourneys lol). within half an hour i had consoled him and set him back on his dark and twisted path of slaaneshi worship!! How did i do this you ask? I brought to his attention that units, weapons, even the names of units are just artistic license in HIS army. to put it more precisely khorne berzerkers are JUST a statline and a points cost. icons in units aren't the icon of khorne nurgle etc they are the icon of +1A or +1T etc. after explaining this to him we delved into a huge untapped area of slaaneshi fluffdom! it was quite exciting figuring out how each unit could have its own slaanesh influenced twist so the khorne berzerker entry became an elite brand of EC that loves the feel of tearing flesh and blood splashing onto their skin. nurgle marines became worshippers thathave ingested just about every narcotic known to the universe and in huge amounts. Oblit became noise marines that willingly let themselves be possessed by daemons. his dready with sonic weaponry got a similar counts as ruling for its weapons. now i understand that this may not appeal to everyone but the fluff and modeling opportunities it opened up were far too much fun to ignore. i know im probably gonna get flamed for writing the fluff to explain the army so to speak but in the end(unless playing in a tournament) would anyone really hold this against him or myself?(i'm using it on my iron warriors)

 

After all its meant to be enjoyed!!

 

so what im asking is people opinion on this style of gaming. do you honestly think its super bad or is it more fluffy this way?

also any more ideas/fluffwise for converting units to slaansh or any other god would be welcome :P

 

Khaeron

[Ntin]

Codex: Chaos Marines is just boring now. Nearly every list is the same it is going to have either a Slaanesh or Nurgle daemon prince, plague marines, and a few handfuls of obliterators. The fluff became all about how the warbands and cults sing songs and make paper plate bean shakers between black crusades. Codex: Chaos Marines 4th is just a weak, uninspired rulebook like the original Codex: Chaos Marines.

 

I die a little inside each time I see Noise Marine squads of 8.

[Khaeron]

my brother uses squads in multiples of six like i said he doesn't play tournament nor does he play expressly to win. but slaanesh's sacred number has always been hard to make playable, its the smallest so if he wants a rhino squad its six strong otherwise they leg it. but he still turns up with two rhino squads to most of his games :)

 

my point is about trying to make the best out of a situation that he's currently stuck in. and although we explained away alot of the "you must use these to win with chaos" units i still doubt he would take more than one. as for the lash prince etc just look at the previous space marine dex, i never took a captain ever it was always two chaplains and why wouldn't you? they were great, they still are great if slightly reduced in power. whether or not a codex is boring or not IMHO depends on your imagination like i said we had a great time making things with a slaaneshi slant on them. we as chaos have the most varied and interesting troop choices in the game, i'm hard pressed to think of another army that has 9 possible troop types(unmarked csm + each of the marks) you shouldn't be bribed with fancy special rules and free champions to play any of the cults, you should WANT to play them no matter what. i will be a night lord til the day i die! just because 4th ed ruined my whole army doesn't mean i don't love them and the fluff and the whole ideal behind them. so sit back be patient and try to enjoy what you've got for now if you find it boring make it interesting if your getting sick of seeing nurgle and khorne marines don't use them it's not all about winning.

 

 

 

Its About Having Fun!! :D

 

Khaeron

[UltimateJake]

yes finally someone sees it. It is about having fun. You are a good marine, even if you are chaos. :D

[chillin]

is it more fluffy this way?

 

Are you really asking if it is more fluffy to put brzrkrs in a slanny army ?? :D

[Ntin]

yes finally someone sees it. It is about having fun. You are a good marine, even if you are chaos. <_<

 

Which would suggest the rule book would be irrelevant in the pursuit of having fun. I could say my Orks are Tau with Proteus syndrome but it does not make it anymore fluffy.

[Khaeron]

Are you really asking if it is more fluffy to put brzrkrs in a slanny army ??

 

you seem to have missed the point of this exercise, i wasn't asking if it was fluffy to include berzerkers i asked if it was fluffy to rename them make up a back story and make them slaaneshi troops for friendly games

i don't see any reason why that entry must represent khorne berzerkers if i don't want it to. this is about modelling slaaneshi themed infantry to represent other selections from the army list.

 

Which would suggest the rule book would be irrelevant in the pursuit of having fun. I could say my Orks are Tau with Proteus syndrome but it does not make it anymore fluffy.

again my point has been missed here. i'm not talking about throwing a snotling on a 40mm base and saying iots a greater daemon of khorne. i'm talking about converting models using for the sake of this thread slaaneshi influences. Inside the same codex using models to the correct scale. if i take what you have said in context and please forgive me if i am wrong, your suggesting that if there is a model to represent that entry, that i may not use anything else? does this then continue on people who convert their models, or scratch build their own cult troopers??

[Vissah]

is it more fluffy this way?

 

Are you really asking if it is more fluffy to put brzrkrs in a slanny army ?? :blink:

 

And Plague Marines :P

[Captain Malachi]

Don't bother Khaeron, this lot enjoy whining and moaning about their 'unfluffy' codex. The idea of admitting the truth that it isn't an unplayable pile of pig-doo is just unthinkable to them.

[Vissah]

One thing I never whined about the codex since I like playing with it.

I dont use any cult troops I play all undivided so I got no problem at all.

 

But it is about having fun that is true but asking if Berzerkers put into a Slaanesh army is fluffy the answer is simply no.

If you make some nice models to represent Berzerkers but keep the Slaanesh flow with it so for you it fits with the army that is ok with me, but the answer to is it fluffy its still no.

If you play a game against me with a Slaanesh army with some Berzerkers in it its fine with me but if you ask me if I find it fluffy the answer is no.

 

I played against a army in a tournament last year with 2 Lash Princes, 3 units of Berzerkers, 3 Oblits and 2 Vindicators. It was a legal army so there is nothing I can say about it and if the guy thinks its fun to play with go ahead its your hobby, time and money so Im the last one to say you cant do it.

But if he asked me if I find his army fluffy the answer is no.

 

Do you see my point, the game is about fun but bending fluff to fit your own army is something some people like to do and some not.

[Atheist]

Khaeron I had a similar idea about introducing cult troops to my Iron Warriors , with the appropriate conversions of course ( to represent bionics , enhancements , dark mechanicus and whatnot ) .

 

This would essentially mean put even more work into my army , for the sake diversifying my lists a bit , while remaining fluffy .

 

Then I thought that no matter what I do , the moment my opponent describes my list to a third party ( using the codex terms ) , the fluff spell is broken .

 

I'm still planning to do these conversions , but it's more out f a desire not to throw away some good ideas that I had ( especially for the sons ) .

 

My 2 cents on the matter - as they say .

[saintevil]

1st of all, great idea! Sum1 has finaly seen the light. So what if our fluff got rippd off. My night lords are dark ultramarines now but so what. We could all go on and whine bout how gw has killd our dex but it wont amount to anything. Instead we cud do sumthin like khearon and enjoy playing our chaos armies! So what if we have to play nurgle princes? Ive learnd to beat them! I love playing my chaos still, and i do really good with my list at tournies. So my commendations to khearon for seeing the warp light and shame on the rest of you for being to weak of faith. GLORY TO CHAOS!

[refuse]

Are you really asking if it is more fluffy to put brzrkrs in a slanny army ??

 

you seem to have missed the point of this exercise, i wasn't asking if it was fluffy to include berzerkers i asked if it was fluffy to rename them make up a back story and make them slaaneshi troops for friendly games

i don't see any reason why that entry must represent khorne berzerkers if i don't want it to. this is about modelling slaaneshi themed infantry to represent other selections from the army list.

 

Which would suggest the rule book would be irrelevant in the pursuit of having fun. I could say my Orks are Tau with Proteus syndrome but it does not make it anymore fluffy.

again my point has been missed here. i'm not talking about throwing a snotling on a 40mm base and saying iots a greater daemon of khorne. i'm talking about converting models using for the sake of this thread slaaneshi influences. Inside the same codex using models to the correct scale. if i take what you have said in context and please forgive me if i am wrong, your suggesting that if there is a model to represent that entry, that i may not use anything else? does this then continue on people who convert their models, or scratch build their own cult troopers??

You are arbitrarily limiting yourself.

 

The question the person is asking is, if you "Count as", then why not count anything as anything. You are trying to justify the use of beserkers as slaanesh models to justify fluff. Well you don't see fluff as fun, so by your definition, it meets your requirements.

 

Scratch built models and models to fill in what GW didn't build or make has always been done. But it was an extension to the game. Now it is part of the game and required ot build what you had before. Same for the old Squat Players (who I am one), and the Beast Man IG players (who I am one).

 

You don't see any reason why a Khorne Beserker can't be represent a different thing. So that is good for you. But it has nothing to do with modeling as you suggest, if that was the only reason then you wouldn't need to call it a Khorne beserker. You want to give a person justification to play a fluffy army by using other units in their army and calling them something else. That isn't modelling a themed army. That is playing a themed army in a game. Big difference. People have build dioramas, and models that had no game impact. Heck they have been the basis for games.

 

What you are really trying to do is, create a fluffy army within the current codex, and trying to use "count as" as the way to get around what GW didn't design into their book. It has nothing to do with modeling.

 

Don't bother Khaeron, this lot enjoy whining and moaning about their 'unfluffy' codex. The idea of admitting the truth that it isn't an unplayable pile of pig-doo is just unthinkable to them.

No one said it isn't unplayable. Only that it reduced the options to play from the previous book.

Alot of people (like the quote right above) whine and moan about how people think the codex is unfluffy. Even though they don't don't know what fluff is. Or they accept mediocrity. The game is a weak set of rules wrapped in a fluffy world. Fluff is what makes the game. Chess is a game without fluff. WH40k is all fluff wrapped in a game.

The codex is powerful, if you don't want to do things that you could do before.

 

 

1st of all, great idea! Sum1 has finaly seen the light. So what if our fluff got rippd off. My night lords are dark ultramarines now but so what. We could all go on and whine bout how gw has killd our dex but it wont amount to anything. Instead we cud do sumthin like khearon and enjoy playing our chaos armies! So what if we have to play nurgle princes? Ive learnd to beat them! I love playing my chaos still, and i do really good with my list at tournies. So my commendations to khearon for seeing the warp light and shame on the rest of you for being to weak of faith. GLORY TO CHAOS!

So what if your fluff got ripped off?

What is the reason for playing the game? Well that depends on the person. You like to play at tournies to win it seems. Others like to model, others like to paint and others like fluff.

 

I for one, stayed with the fluff. For 20+ years I played Emperor's Children (since Slaves to Darkness).

Fluff is what defines the style of the army, the rules are how they play on the field. The issue ultimately becomes (as you point out), that "night lords are dark ultramarines now but so what".

 

Exactly the point the person was trying to make in the first quote of this post. At some point, GW should just make "Codex: Army" and let people model what they want. Troop 01 could be a nightlord, or an ultramarine. I mean "So what if our fluff got rippd off".

 

 

Or as I tell GW, "So what if I stop paying for your product." Or as GW has said: "So what if you played us for 20 years, we are after the "So what" generation. They will accept anything!"

[Forgerer]

Or as I tell GW, "So what if I stop paying for your product." Or as GW has said: "So what if you played us for 20 years, we are after the "So what" generation. They will accept anything!"

 

Yes, we accept eaven if we dont like it, we just dont care. People should try that :D

[the jeske]

Don't bother Khaeron, this lot enjoy whining and moaning about their 'unfluffy' codex. The idea of admitting the truth that it isn't an unplayable pile of pig-doo is just unthinkable to them.

m8 he is telling everyone they should play a BL list . everyone . because playing with anything else sucks. I can understand that someone who does not play the game to play the game , but to paint models or convert stuff doesnt care[but then again the same people wouldnt care if there are many options too] . But when a NL list has to be the same as a BL list which is the same as an IW list and which is identical to DG list , it sucks to a such a level it even hard to describe . Yes I could play with a BL list and yes I could call them AL and yes the list would look the same as someone elses WB list , but why the :D play using the chaos dex then . I could play with a scout/pedro build and call it chaos too , I would get infiltration[scouts as cultists] , elite chaos sm[sternguard] and stuff AL should have [because they work inside the empire] like MM attack bikes and drop pods.

 

You don't see any reason why a Khorne Beserker can't be represent a different thing.

m8 you can do what ever you want to do and what ever your friends allow you to do. IA stuff , old dex , house rules . techniclly you can do anything. But khorn berzerkers are khorn berzerkers[i mean it is in their name] , they are not generic ultra chopy csm . more counts as if a dex doesnt have a lot of options to make different builds leads to one thing and one thing only . to all armies looking the same . you see in 3.5 a WB army list was different to a AL list , not just in the way it was painted . but in game play , they were different armies for different legions. right now there is 2 builds mecha and LR rush[i mean working stuff ], no character customization [unlike all in the dexs after our dex] , sucktastic hq that do nothing with foc and are totally overpriced [with the exeption of Khârn maybe] . Are you telling me I should be happy that I should play a 4 rhino list with oblits and 2 dps and call it AL [when the same is done by 90% of all chaos players around the world]? I hope this is some elaborate trolling or sarcasm am not getting because of language barrier . Ask in the SW /BT/BA player how happy they would be , if GW told them "no new codex for you use counts as with the sm dex it is awesome" .

 

 

Fluff is what defines the style of the army, the rules are how they play on the field. The issue ultimately becomes (as you point out), that "night lords are dark ultramarines now but so what".

because if AL are the spec ops csm and WB are the evil clerics and queting you NL are dark ultramarines and all 3 look identical ,it kills the flavor of each legion , it kills the special thing about them . People would have lived with legion options taken from them [like sonic weapons on tanks for EC , cultists for AL , demons bombs etc] , they would have lived without traits and demonic options asp champions . But was it so hard to make stuff that gives us more builds , like it was given in each and every other codex after us ?

[Atheist]

Thank you the jeske .

[MuGGzy]

This is EXACTLY what I did. They gave us lemons, fine I got some pretty bad ass lemonade laced with extacy, litteraly and figuratively.

 

I have Slaneshii Zerkers, Plague Marines, Noise marines obviously, and may make some 1K sons if I get creative. I even made Slaneshii raptors that may or may not ever get use. Do what you want, have fun, and tell any sayers of nay to jump in a lake, of broken glass and salt water... :P

 

Example for giggles:

Plague Marine Champ

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u127/oldskool454/WH40K/Chaos/EC/th_ecplague5.jpg

 

Berzerkers:

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u127/oldskool454/WH40K/Chaos/EC/th_ECZerks.jpg

 

Kharne:

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u127/oldskool454/WH40K/Chaos/EC/th_kharne2.jpg

[tyrannosaurus]

Why should I have to come up with 'counts as' troops or invent back story to justify including units from a completely opposed and hated cult in my army that i don't want there anyway?

 

What would the response be if all of the chapter specific dexes including special rules were scrapped for loyalist Space Marines? If half your miniatures/combinations became obselete and you had to use wolf guard as 'counts as' drop pods? If you were limited to one or two effective choices for HQs that were generic and not chapter specific? If your librarians suddenly lost half of their powers? If you were forced to field chapters together that all the background says hate each other and would never fight together? And then, with all of these limitations, you tried to field a competitive list and were called cheesy? Can't see that happening to GWs Space Marine cash cow.

 

Anyway this argument is kinda boring now, check out

 

http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/200...ces-of-opinion/

 

Other people have put it much more eloquently than me.

[chillin]

Don't bother Khaeron, this lot enjoy whining and moaning about their 'unfluffy' codex. The idea of admitting the truth that it isn't an unplayable pile of pig-doo is just unthinkable to them.

 

Only one whinning and moaning so far is you. The only one that has even mentioned the dex is you. No one said anything about the dex being a unplayable pile of pig doo (very mature). You post is completely off topic and pretty much flame bait.

[Possessed Marine]

Personally for fluff, my army is whatever I chuck into it, then I just say that they're working for the warmaster... that usually works for me

[saintevil]

I like the way you think possessd marine. Glory to chaos! May you kill many false god lackeys!

[Requiemnex]

I play iron warriors and although we dont really use "cult" based units.. We do have fluffy ways of using things. Counts As is your friend.. So have fun with it.

 

Personally I took an 8 man squad of khorne bezerkers.. Gave them all no helmets painted them boltgun metal and then trimmed them out with bronze and gold.. They look great.. They are also very fluffy. Usually the first question I get asked when I put them on the table is... "Is that a unit of Khorne Bezerkers?" I gave them all axes.. Some have two.. ;)

[refuse]

Fluff is what defines the style of the army, the rules are how they play on the field. The issue ultimately becomes (as you point out), that "night lords are dark ultramarines now but so what".

because if AL are the spec ops csm and WB are the evil clerics and queting you NL are dark ultramarines and all 3 look identical ,it kills the flavor of each legion , it kills the special thing about them . People would have lived with legion options taken from them [like sonic weapons on tanks for EC , cultists for AL , demons bombs etc] , they would have lived without traits and demonic options asp champions . But was it so hard to make stuff that gives us more builds , like it was given in each and every other codex after us ?

I agree with you jeske, I was using the posters logic.

As I said, at some point they could release "Codex: Army" and count as Tyranid, Emperor's Children, Dark Angels. . .

100% agree with what you have said since the new codex was developed.

[tyrannosaurus]

I was thinking that I might just spraypaint all of my ECs grey and have them 'count as' whichever army is the strongest at any given time. I think I'll have all of my models 'count as' Imperial Guard seeing as that's just been released.

 

Better yet, why not just get rid of my models on ebay and use various fruit and vegetables as 'count as' whatever I choose? Feel the power of my Aubergine Carnifex, Melon Monolith and Noise Prunes.

[Sheff]

Just a question related to this, how long has everyone been playing Chaos, and do you think the edition you started with has affected your opinion on this?

 

My main gripe with the newest codex and the way chaos marines are treated in general is that without having a separate codex for each legion, it's very hard to maintain your army's identity from codex to codex.

 

For example, back in 3rd edition I loved the idea of Cypher and the fallen angels, and so created a newly renegade chapter with a contingent of fallen angels, I wasn't interested in cult units as I felt they weren't represented very well, and the rest of the codex was very basic (although I admit everything was a lot more basic back then).

 

3.5 pretty much destroyed my army, without Cypher, the fallen angels were discarded and I turned mostly to Khorne; khorne berzerker bikers were great fun to use, especially in conjunction with raptors to melt land raiders and chainaxes to fell terminators, with a bunch of bloodletters waiting to be summoned in.

 

4th edition has changed my army yet again; raptors aren't quite cut out for the role they once played - termicide squads are usually much more effective, my bikers are no longer berzerkers, just a mocking shadow, and the bloodletters are now just generic daemon bombs. Khârn can be brutal, but with the amount of hidden powerfists/claws these days, he doesn't seem worth it. My mostly khorne army basically became partly khorne, with a few icons scattered around. I've decided to finally go with a warband under the black legion, because at least in the next codex that can't be affected too much... I hope.