did chaos cults really lose out?

[cathar the great]

Point is that most Chaos players have accepted that this is the codex we have to work with and that's not gonna change for a while. Doesn't mean we have to be happy about it, and being unhappy about something doesn't make us whiners or unimaginative.

 

 

I agree with you. My problem is that most of these threads evolve into exactly the same discussions over and over again, instead of discussing the ideas and counts-as explanations of the OPs.

[chillin]

but I think it is more your fault not to like the book.

 

I guess it is my fault that I don't like the book. Just like it is my fault that I don't like brussel sprouts. For much the same reasons that I don't care for this dex, b/c they're bland, boreing and leave a bad tast in my mouth.

I guess I could have a brussel sprout "counts as" a piece of sushi, but I doubt it would taste any different.

[cathar the great]

but I think it is more your fault not to like the book.

 

I guess it is my fault that I don't like the book. Just like it is my fault that I don't like brussel sprouts. For much the same reasons that I don't care for this dex, b/c they're bland, boreing and leave a bad tast in my mouth.

I guess I could have a brussel sprout "counts as" a piece of sushi, but I doubt it would taste any different.

 

Thank you for proving my point.

[the jeske]

instead of discussing the ideas and counts-as explanations of the OPs.

m8 you need whole topics to create stuff like siege marines ,IW breach takers or old school chaos androids ? counts as is damn easy , what is there to talk about . techniclly you could think a race of glowing gas clouds[they are canon] or sentinent crystals[really cheap to buy , if you have a daughter or sister they can even point you where to buy different ones] and then just make a BL list like veryone else. bolter shots would be shards. plasma/melta would be energy discharge , attacks in hth would be their abilty to produce boon shatering sonic booms at close range . etc etc.

[Grey Mage]

Codex: Chaos Marines is just boring now. Nearly every list is the same it is going to have either a Slaanesh or Nurgle daemon prince, plague marines, and a few handfuls of obliterators.

And that's the fault of the Codex?

Or the players?

I suspect the latter, not the former.

Did the players take the fluff out of the dex ? Did the players get their dex's and rip out the war gear page ? Did they do the same to the legion rules s section ?

 

As far as all chaos list looking the same; I guess you could fill your list with weak options and combos that don't wk well together, knowing you'll get beat by anyone with a 1/2 decient list, so you can say "I used all the chaos stuff that no one esle uses", but that seems rather stupid to me.

Are the players so lacking in imagination that they cannot create their own Fluff, that it must be spoon-fed to them by the designers? Given a broad list of options that never get used, why keep them? And why can't players follow their own "legion" rules?

 

It's still the player's fault. The notion of all these being "weak" options seems more the fault of players being cattle and following whatever somebody else made work, rather than showing a spark of individuality and stepping out of the herd to do something of their own.

 

And that's a pity. GW has catered to lowest common denominator for so long, making players think is a stunted skill. Point in fact - my Eldar would *kill* for a CSM-like book, with a variety of Aspects as Troops. My Guard would love to have distinct Regiments as Troops. Really, the whole thing comes off as spoiled whines.

I play Eldar too, and I have to say that frankly our aspect warrior system is the most balanced way to field a "Biel-tann" style army yet made.

 

As for the Chaos codex, I agree that more could be done with it than has been done with it. There are units that can preform wonders that are rarely taken... and there are reasons for that- some of them are things that mathhammer cant show, others are simply units that dont mesh well with the rest of the army, and some of them are only effective in a couple of narrow point bands.

 

No, GW Dropped the ball on several codices in a row, and the players who remain to complain have earned a bit of moaning. Its tiresome sometimes I agree, but do you remember a couple years ago when the new C:SM hit?

 

Do you remember what happened to the DA forums over the course of the next three months?

 

Me, Im just happy theres some people willing to stick it out and play with this product.

 

Because its true... there are multiple ways to make lists that are fun and effective with this book. Its also true that theres a couple ways that stand head and shoulders over the rest. And what is most true is that they took a book that was one of the most characterful and well optioned codexs in the game and turned it into a bran muffin of a book.

 

And that sucks. I know five guys who have Chaos Armies, two of them have fielded their forces in the last two years, and only one of them with any regularity. Theres a REASON this is going on accross the globe and with all levels and ages of players.

 

And theres a reason the designer of the codex is no longer an employee of GW.

[chillin]

And theres a reason the designer of the codex is no longer an employee of GW.

 

And the fact that is harder to argue with then any other concerning this topic ;) (well by "harder" I mean impossible)

[Lascannons]

Other than that he retired of his own will. Granted, he switched from writing :cussty codeci to :cussty BL books. But it's not like they threw him out the door.

[Vissah]

He just kept the honour to himself and quited GW before he got sacked probably.

[Grey Mage]

Other than that he retired of his own will. Granted, he switched from writing :cussty codeci to :cussty BL books. But it's not like they threw him out the door.

Ive had several managers quit, retire, or take an indefinite leave because they were caught stealing, in leiu of being fired. Having read his blogs, and how defensive he got anytime anyone mentioned the Chaos Codex, even in the begining when the outcry was still forming.... *shrugs*. My personal opinion on the subject is that it is likely he left in order to stay in good relations with the company and any friends he had there, much like a congressman stepping down when charges are filed against him to keep the debate from harming the government and to keep from being sanctioned by them.

 

Or as they say- committing sepaku.

 

Edit: But if you need any further proof that the chaos codex has serious issues just look at the fact that the Jeske and I agree on it. Its one of four things we agree on I believe, and another one of those is that the sky is nominally blue. You use D6's in 40k, and one other that doesnt come up much.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

To answer the OP's question, have you tried playing a pure thousand sons list with the current codex, do you ever see one?

no.

I have tried, I saw the previous codex, whilst playing with my Grey Knights, the fluff for Thousand sons and the models had always tempted me, so I decided to play them.

Only by the time I had raised the money for them, the new codex had come out and I was dissapointed, both the 3rd ed Space wolf codex and the Grey knight codex had more options and more fluff, the amount of fluff that was not centered on the Black legion or Horun Blackheart and his fellow pirate was less then the SINGLE page of fluff in the Space wolf codex, and that codex had so many possible lists, and each one had a style and charecter that did credit to fluff, in this codex there was none, this codex had about as much style as a tramp, and the options and fluff seemed to be aimed for primary school children aged 8,

My point is that where 3rd edition "pamphlet" codex had fluff that whilst not exactly the most, covered pretty much all possible space wolf players armys and in the jump from 2nd to 3rd did'nt leave whole armys near worthless or evan units, the one exception being rune priest who whilst a decent combat charecter, could no longer pcychic people to death, and did not cause an outcry or people to stop playing playing there army or only play them occaisionly, nor did it cause whole forums to be about as active as an Ultramarines imagination, seriously, have look at the Thousand sons forum and the activity on there, and compare it to the Space wolves or Deamonhunter ones.

Simply put, a 4th edtion codex is put to shame, in fluff, list variety, and dealing with previous editions, sure a few models may need to be changed or dropped, but when its whole armys being dropped, you have a problem.

[Sovereign]

Lots of trolls on this thread. I'd rather hear from players who play CSMs.

 

yes but the number of people who dislike the dex is huge

 

I'm with Jeske and the other defenders of good product, it isn't whining, it's pointing out that the entire design for the Codex is substandard - which it is.

To all of you who do not play Chaos, haven't played Chaos for 10+ years or simply 'do not care'.

 

For the record, I played Fallen Angels as my second army, and I have all of the Chaos Codices, along with RoC StD, so saying I don't have the Chaos roots to comment is untrue. There are lots of reasons to like the current book, and reasons to dislike the previous book. Given the choice, I prefer the current Codex because it offers a lot more freedom to me as a player, and less confusion across the table.

[Sovereign]

my Eldar would *kill* for a CSM-like book, with a variety of Aspects as Troops.

I play Eldar too, and I have to say that frankly our aspect warrior system is the most balanced way to field a "Biel-tann" style army yet made.

I'm not at all sure what you mean by this. I know for a fact that Codex: Craftworlds set a high bar for how competitive Biel-Tan could be, and the current Eldar book doesn't hold a candle to it. Perhaps you could clarify?

[Grey Mage]

my Eldar would *kill* for a CSM-like book, with a variety of Aspects as Troops.

I play Eldar too, and I have to say that frankly our aspect warrior system is the most balanced way to field a "Biel-tann" style army yet made.

I'm not at all sure what you mean by this. I know for a fact that Codex: Craftworlds set a high bar for how competitive Biel-Tan could be, and the current Eldar book doesn't hold a candle to it. Perhaps you could clarify?

Yeah sure- 25 Dark Reapers with exarchs, 10 DAs with exarch, supported by 4 Vypers and led by a farseer was a nasty 1500pt list, and there were others far worse. The current codex splits the aspect squads up nicely- 3 Elite, 3 FA, 1 HS, 1 Trp allowing for a relatively balanced force inside a single FOC while the previous one could be bent every wich way tell tuesday. I got more complaints about the biel-tann list then BA got in 3rd edition rhino rushes.

 

The current C:Eldar has one me plenty of tournaments with Biel-tann style lists *I wont touch gaurdians, who sends 3,000 year old gardners to die?* and is quite competitive. The old craftworld dex had balance issues- bieltann was overpowering beyond reason, sam-hain was screwed up *though effective in the right hands* and you could get more wraithlords in a standard list than in an Iyanden list. Those are all in my opinion issues that have been completely resolved with the new codex.

 

The only problem I have with the current C:Eldar is that our Falcons and Waveserpents are all overpriced by about 35-50 points, and the Autarch needs str 4 or a significant price reduction.

 

The only thing I miss about the Biel-tann list? Being able to make fluffy lists for scenarios and use a single great aspect warrior "shrine"s worth of striking scorpions or swooping hawks etc lead by a phoenix lord to represent the head exarch.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Given the choice, I prefer the current Codex because it offers a lot more freedom to me as a player, and less confusion across the table.

 

Oh dear. Not this again. *looks around for Legatus to show up*

 

I'll bite though. Go ahead and explain how this codex offers more freedom than the last.

[Grey Mage]

Short version-

I dont trust the people I play with to do math properly, and Im unable/to lazy to read through someone elses codex to make sure the rules are being followed properly so the old dex was scary and confusing. And there was more than one army list!??!?!? There should only be one per book, cause thats what the book is all about mmmmkay?.

 

Seriously, thats the only thing I hear on the side of "but its simpler, so thats better.".

 

- They didnt have someone competitent to check lists at their tournaments or their local buddy wasnt trustworthy so pts values were off.

- They didnt take the time to read through the codex, so didnt know if certain combos were legal or not or how they interacted and so were unable to tell if the enemy was cheating or just incorrect or how to counter it if it was legal.

- They were somewhat awed/cowed by the versatility of the thing and its many army lists and/or were to lazy to note the rules of each.

 

Its alot like the problems many have with eldar- to lazy to take the time to study up on killin them, or fighting opponents who dont understand their own rules, and/or suprised with the many different options available to the book.

[Sovereign]

Given the choice, I prefer the current Codex because it offers a lot more freedom to me as a player, and less confusion across the table.

Oh dear. Not this again.

 

I'll bite though. Go ahead and explain how this codex offers more freedom than the last.

As if this road wouldn't be travelled from the get-go... If B&C isn't going to auto-lock every C:CSM thread, what can people expect?

 

I wanted multiple Raptors and multiple Defilers. I can do this in the current Codex.

[Sovereign]

I know for a fact that Codex: Craftworlds set a high bar for how competitive Biel-Tan could be, and the current Eldar book doesn't hold a candle to it. Perhaps you could clarify?

Yeah sure- 25 Dark Reapers with exarchs, 10 DAs with exarch, supported by 4 Vypers and led by a farseer was a nasty 1500pt list, and there were others far worse.

 

The current codex splits the aspect squads up nicely- 3 Elite, 3 FA, 1 HS, 1 Trp allowing for a relatively balanced force inside a single FOC while the previous one could be bent every wich way tell tuesday. I got more complaints about the biel-tann list then BA got in 3rd edition rhino rushes.

 

The old craftworld dex had balance issues- bieltann was overpowering beyond reason, sam-hain was screwed up *though effective in the right hands* and you could get more wraithlords in a standard list than in an Iyanden list. Those are all in my opinion issues that have been completely resolved with the new codex.

I think I fielded something like that once, just because I could.

 

3 Elite, 3 Fast, 1 Troop, 1 Heavy isn't a good split - it forces a DA-centric build where you could have had multiple Scorps alternatives as Troops.

 

If it's OK for Biel-Tan to be nerfed, then it's OK for CSM to be nerfed.

[Grey Mage]

I know for a fact that Codex: Craftworlds set a high bar for how competitive Biel-Tan could be, and the current Eldar book doesn't hold a candle to it. Perhaps you could clarify?

Yeah sure- 25 Dark Reapers with exarchs, 10 DAs with exarch, supported by 4 Vypers and led by a farseer was a nasty 1500pt list, and there were others far worse.

 

The current codex splits the aspect squads up nicely- 3 Elite, 3 FA, 1 HS, 1 Trp allowing for a relatively balanced force inside a single FOC while the previous one could be bent every wich way tell tuesday. I got more complaints about the biel-tann list then BA got in 3rd edition rhino rushes.

 

The old craftworld dex had balance issues- bieltann was overpowering beyond reason, sam-hain was screwed up *though effective in the right hands* and you could get more wraithlords in a standard list than in an Iyanden list. Those are all in my opinion issues that have been completely resolved with the new codex.

I think I fielded something like that once, just because I could.

 

3 Elite, 3 Fast, 1 Troop, 1 Heavy isn't a good split - it forces a DA-centric build where you could have had multiple Scorps alternatives as Troops.

 

If it's OK for Biel-Tan to be nerfed, then it's OK for CSM to be nerfed.

Ahh, but having played the 3.5 chaos dex against the 4rth Eldar list, they were about even in 4rth edition. Besides, scorpions lost the ability to make a balanced troop choice when they lost haywire grenades and with it most of their anti-tank abilities.

[Sovereign]

And in 5th, the new Eldar are roughly on par with the new Chaos. :(

 

Tho I really hate the Guardian-centric focus of how Eldar are done - if every Eldar is so valuable, what moron sends them out in crap armor with short-ranged guns?

[Darkapostle222]

And in 5th, the new Eldar are roughly on par with the new Chaos. :(

 

Tho I really hate the Guardian-centric focus of how Eldar are done - if every Eldar is so valuable, what moron sends them out in crap armor with short-ranged guns?

 

Cuz the Eldar are trying to give birth to their death god (the one that will be created when the last Eldar dies and then proceed to kill Slaanesh)

[Grey Mage]

And in 5th, the new Eldar are roughly on par with the new Chaos. ;)

 

Tho I really hate the Guardian-centric focus of how Eldar are done - if every Eldar is so valuable, what moron sends them out in crap armor with short-ranged guns?

Umm... I was talking about the current eldar- theyre a match for the older chaos book under 4rth ed rules when I used playtested it. And your right.... it is stupid, thats why I thank the gods that we have dire avengers, jetbikes, and pathfinders for troops aswell. Bieltann didnt get nerfed, nor did its fluff change... Dire Avengers have always been the most common of aspect warriors.

 

Just like its a good thing that chaos gets cult choices as troops, or I think no one would be have stayed.

[Messanger of Death]

To Chillin et al.

I agree that Codex: Chaos Space Marines is and always has been a sub-standard codex. It is a pathetic excuse for a codex and provides very little flexibility when it comes to creating competitive lists. It is just utter failure. Unlike other 4th Edition codices, like C: BT, which have slowly had competitive builds taken from them as the game changes you just never had the options and freedom.

 

That wasn't the point that the Original Poster was making. The OP didn't create this thread so that people could once again voice their frustration over C: CSM. Rather it was created to encourage player's to share their imagination.

 

Messanger

[The 13th Goat]

Seriously, this was meant to be a CHAOS SPACE MARINE thread, not an Eldar one.

 

The long short seems to be that the new Chaos codex is Naff, losing many of the Individual qualties each legion brought and more importantly painting the whole of Chaos the same colour; Black Legion. And i totally agree. With Cultists and Cypher biting the bullet, and characters like a IW Warsmith NOT being included in the dex, i feel far more disgruntled than the Ultramarines slanted SM codex. With that being said, while our army list has shrunk i think many people are neglecting the fact that our individual troops have far more versitility than a standard SM army. 5 types of troop choice isn't bad, considering SM have 2. Plus icons and deamons offer us rapid strikes that an SM would have trouble replicating.

 

In short, i am disappointed in the new Dex, but for lack of content and bais than anything else. The army lists are versatile, but like SM you need to structure them first, and take into account what they can now do i.e Raptors may not be tank killers on wings, but equip an icon and you have a deamons and reinforcements in striking range first turn, which if that includes Bezerkers is messy.

 

On to the OP's ACTUAL post.

 

I like your models, and i see no reason why they shouldn't COUNT AS bezerkers. Let me be clear, count as should be within the limits of reason. Having Bezerkers with Slaaneshi icons and innitative is unfair.

 

The cults are what you make them. No one is stopping you making a dedicated force, given their troop choice allocation.

[the jeske]

Given the choice, I prefer the current Codex because it offers a lot more freedom to me as a player, and less confusion across the table.

ok first the more options part . A you didnt have to play a legion list . B if you did you could take BL [with BL khorn being probablly the top chaos lists in 4th ed ] , you could mix and match units , you had access to oblits [yes not 9 like the IW , but still] , you could take cult troopers , you could take undivided guys . C you could have used counts as . D going further there is [am not math person] a bigger chance to find a list you like or that is closer to what you would like to play with using the huge number of different builds possible , then with dex that has two . since the thorpe dex came the "more flexible" argument was brought a lot of times . But what does the flexible mean ? that I can play a WB army with cult troops and units with icons using "counts as"[even if it contracits the WB fluff]? well I could that with 3.5 dex too [of course I would get some odd looks from people for playing WB with BL rules] .

 

as the confusing part goes. well GW is never accurate with their rules , that is true . But you know, if you arent willing to learn all the rules out of all the other codex , then how are you suppose to play this game ? I mean do you sit down and like start reading it durning the game or constantlly ask questions [what many people would see as staling the game] ? how can you know that the other person is not cheating , if you dont know the rules and more how can you explain your own actions , if a codex is too confusing to you . plusI really dont think that outside of tournament players people really playtested every legion build and list possible . and if you find a single page of legion rules too confusing then you better not look at IG or SW dex.

 

 

as the people like vs people dislike the dex. You have to remember people who post here and dislike the dex are still playing . Some play chaos , some dont . But a really big part of the gaming comunity , that used the 3.5 chaos dex . Is no longer playing the game . as tournament player I could just say ;) it and switch to IG, that by far is a superior dex [well at least at 1750+points] . I could have gone the game play way and play pedro build with scouts [aka cultists] and sternguard[the actual AL]+superior dreads , drops pods and attacks bikes and it would be perfectlly legal with counts as and all . It would be closer to the list I used in 3.5 [i would even say superior to it] then anything I could do with the thorpe dex. I didnt do that .

 

 

 

If it's OK for Biel-Tan to be nerfed, then it's OK for CSM to be nerfed.

m8 the craftworld eldar dex was one of GW biggest errors they ever made . They not only let a fanboy do a dex [to make an example H-man wanted to do the same with IW . If you think they had more special rules then other legions in 3.5 you should have seen the first tested version. specials siege squads , siege dreads etc ] , but also let him do it in the spirit of narrative campinge [like alaitoc had a pre battle phase no other army had since 2ed nids] . the main reason for the 4th ed dex was made so fast was to invalidate the list craftworld . the 4th eldar did not get weaker [some would say stronger], it was possible to build all the lists [yes ghost army sucked, but it sucked in craftworld dex too] again .

It is not possible to build an AL or DG infiltration list , it is not possible to build a demon bomb [WB.BL,EC] it is not possible to build a gunline list [bL.IW.WB] , more lists that actually did suck in 3.5 [NL, or EC non bomb/non syren builds or 1ksons thrall build] are not only impossible to build , but didnt get more powerful . What is the oddest thing GW ever did , because normally they have circle , stuff that was great in one dex/edition gets nerfed in the next and the sucktastic stuff becomes the good options . Nothing like this for chaos . A BL khorn player had to buy . 2 rhinos . 1 dps more . 4 more oblits and 6 termis and he was good to go for whole 5th ed.[what kind of makes it funny when GW guys we surpriesed that sellls for chaos that were always very high in the 3.5 era suddenlly droped].

[Forgerer]

as tournament player

 

You might be right there, that tournament players lost some builds, but those who are not tourny players, I'd say we didint lose much. Well as a WB player I lost Accursed Crozius and perhaps the über customizable characters... thats about it (though everybody lost that). I can still play the army I want.

 

(Now I know all cults lost stuff but if we still had all those things it would make chaos a bit overpowered. Our codex is a lot like the other new ones, armoury reduced into a small corner section in a page, and other shiny stuff taken away)

 

The old dex had quite a lot of limitations, the new dex has none. It stopped being the limiting factor and gave that power to the players.