did chaos cults really lose out?

[Grey Mage]

I dont know what codex your comparing it to forgeror, but I as a SW player lost all of about four options with C:SW, got significant price reductions in my standby units, for a simple balancing in the cost of wargear.

 

The only codices CSM can be said to be like is C:DA and C:BA really.

[the jeske]

Well as a WB player I lost Accursed Crozius and perhaps the über customizable characters... thats about it (though everybody lost that). I can still play the army I want.

how about the WB gunline list ? the WB demon bomb or the infiltration build with 4x7 plasma squads and 3 demons squads support ?

there is no way of recreating those builds with the new dex and there were all widlly played . And this is just WB , the same could be done with all the other legion lists . also am not getting the tournament guys maybe lost something but everyone else didnt . the 3.5 dex didnt have a separate "play this only in tournaments" section . the same builds were played by same people no matter if it was 300 people tournaments , local leagues or one on one pick up games.

 

Now I know all cults lost stuff but if we still had all those things it would make chaos a bit overpowered.

how about AL losing infiltration and cultists and being turned in to a copy of WB/NL/IW and considering their undivided character , they are just a version of BL 2 zerker/2pms same oblits same DP build . 0 difference in game play . 0 difference in options . 4 legions look identical [ am not a painter] , how is that not losing something ?

 

The old dex had quite a lot of limitations

yeah or you could play with BL and have non . Or do by limitations you mean the fact that in the bad power gamer codex people could play with only one DP and 3 oblits [unless they played IW] ?

 

Our codex is a lot like the other new ones, armoury reduced into a small corner section in a page, and other shiny stuff taken away

m8 have you even looked at other codexs? sm dex viable hqs . pedro , vulkan top tier. khan makes a good bike army. a librarian is ok. chapies suck[again nothing new here it was obvious that would happen] , the ultra guys overcosted save for sicarius, normal cpt good for 1-1.250 biker builds. then the tier 2 stuff , chapter master for uber unit LR rush. shriek for the termi infiltration build and then everything else you can legally take. SW dex[lets stay with power armor armies here] . rune priests are the bomb. wl cost a lot but are ok if TWC is used , every HQ can be modified with sagas , logan changes the foc . probablly the end of tier 1 [am not counting arjac here as he isnt a IC]. all the other specials[working really well in 1750+ armies] , wolf priests as 3ed hq for bigger battles .

 

 

and chaos. lash dp and warp time dp are the two viable choices . if you play LR rush Khârn or a lord is maybe an option [still DPs work better] . the number of options/upgrades for chaos . wings[for every hq] demon weapon[for every lord save khorn] warp time/lash[for99%of all first hq] . no matter if a dp is khorn or warp time or if a lord is nurgle or undivided his game play is identical.

how does that look in other dex? FoC changing specials, whole page of options each changing how IC is used , the wargear section is gone but somehow wolf tails , digi weapons etc are found in the dexs.

[Lascannons]

Who do you think lost out more, DA or chaos?

[The Nephilim]

Who do you think lost out more, DA or chaos?

To be 100% honest, and rising to your bait Chaos.

[Brother Nihm]

Who do you think lost out more, DA or chaos?

I don't think that you can compare the drastic changes to 9+ sub-lists to those of 1.

[SquirrelKing]

One thing that would have helped a lot in maintening originality for the undivided legions (even the god ones) would have been to keep Veteran Skills.

 

Would that have been so hard? Or game breaking?

 

I'm coming to terms with "counts as" and its potential, but there is still a part of me that looks at my fully painted/customized/converted/cherished Alpha Legion army and hates the fact that they don't infiltrate anymore. I hate the fact that I'm looking into buying some rhinos. Heck, I don't even name my squads and Champions/Lords/DPs anymore...

 

And that tells me a lot.

[Sovereign]

@jeske: If the previous list wast he be-all, end-all of CSM, how was I to field multiple Defilers *and* multiple Raptors under the previous list?

[the jeske]

nah they wouldnt leave those. but if the special/named characters was the way[there since DAs , in plans for orcs and all other codex , so already there when codex csm was made] and that the happy chaos family was suppose to be the new fluff , why not maka a BL named asp champion for possessed, a NL leader for raptors , AL for tacs , IW for havocks etc. codex would still sux fluffwise , but at least there would be more options .an auto canon unit of havocks with tank hunter , would actually have uses and make oblits less an auto include in every HS slot. Am not even going in to the give a lord option to be legion .

wb lord buys icons for his demons , AL lord gives inf to one of his csm units ] , again it would make DP less of an autoinclude . Sorc could have +1 to demon summoning , not much but if they were cheaper then lords and DP they could make sense in smaller games. But of course doing this would requier GW to actually spend time on working out the dex.

 

 

Who do you think lost out more, DA or chaos?

kind of a depends how you look at it . play comunitywise it is totally chaos , it was a 9 legions with offten more then one build . fluffwise too, DA fluff [well maybe save the vets that make no sense] was not new , but it did make sense . the thorpe dex doesnt make sense . But . the chaos dex had a viable build at 1500 in 4th ed . It also is playable [two builds] , DA dont have that . it is a very hard and very unforgiving army to play . greenwing is a worse version the same sm build. mono RW doesnt really work DW does ok at 1k points , but with normal games being 1500 or more it really struggles sometimes.

[Grey Mage]

Who do you think lost out more, DA or chaos?

Chaos. Dark Angels didnt lose entire armies, they just got gut-punched when C:SM came out shortly thereafter.

[Mr. Sandbot]

In all honesty I'm amazed this topic hasn't been closed yet. This entire thing has degenerated into (pardon the paraphrasing) "Old dex sux" "NO U" etc etc etc. Which is nice to see since the arguments from both sides are pretty decently thought out imo, but that isn't what this thread is about. The OP is asking about the "Count as" rule and how it works, not whether or not the new codex does a good job.

Back to the original post, as Drudge said, "Counts as certainly is our best method of making the best of a bad situation."

While Chilllin answered the rest by saying that no matter what story your creating, the core of your list is going to be the same which is irksome to many players who have to fight millions of plague/slaanesh lists.

 

imo though, I personally don't mind it since I've seen some pretty creative things done with "count as" stories. More so since the dustbuckets don't have any form of anti-vehicle. As a result, many a Thousand Son player has had to create their own means of allowing heavy weapons into their lists, or just playing around with new things (That space wolf/possessed marine topic is still in my head just because those models look amazing).

 

Anyhow, hopefully this topic either gets away from the "new dex blows" discussion and back on track or finds something else thats related to the "Counts as rule" to discuss that isn't arguing over the new dex, otherwise this should be locked.

[Ashe Darke]

There are some arguments from the people who don't like the new codex that I don't get.

 

Iron Warriors

 

I can't take Basilisks any more.

Why would you want to? Vindicators are better although they still suck.

I used to be able to take 9 Oblits.

You still can, yes they're not T5 any more but you can still take 9, it's just everyone else can as well. I think they just feel like they're not special any more.

 

Nightlords

 

Ok this one I can see why. The fluff talks about their tactics and a special set of NL psychological rules would be cool. Raptors as a troop choice as well.

 

Alpha Legion

 

We can't have as many cheap infiltrating units any more.

I think the problem here is that I don't think even infiltrators represent AL that well. Yes they were sneaky but they'd also pay people off and do lots of different things to undermine the enemy. A rule for a special character that was like this.

 

The smallest enemy troop unit (you chose which if there's multiples with the same size) for the rest of the game must either re-roll all successful hits or it does not count as a scoring unit and cannot contest.

 

Something a long those lines, to represent that maybe they're AL in disguise or bought off etc. It's not too powerful and doesn't prevent that unit from being useless but they're less effective. It's troops so it's not like I'm forcing your Dev squad to re-roll hits with heavy weapons. It also adds a little bit of AL flavour to it. Of course I might be well off and biased with my thinking for that but still, it's not like it's gonn happen.

[chillin]

Back on OT alittle bit:

- In this dex can you legally put brzrkrs in your "EC" army if you want too ? ...yes

- Would I refuse to play someone or give them a hard time for doing so ? ...no (well maybe just alittle :P )

- Does changing what you call the brzrkrs in your EC army make it a fluffy army ?... no

- Are people who think fluff is a fun and important part of the game going to want to listen to your story of how brzrkrs (by any name) got into your "EC" army ?... I dare say that most would not.

- Does changing what you call something make the army play any different or make it different to play against ?...no

- Do MuGGzy's conversions look great ? yes definately

- Does taking the time to make a bunch of slanny looking conversions to represent the brzrkrs, PM's etc, in your army make it look better then using reg brzrkr models (which are really WE's models) ? ... yes, definately. I would even go so far as to say it makes it seem "less unfluffy" (not to be confused with actually being fluffy :lol: )

[Khaeron]

ahem.....

 

okies back from a small internet hiatus(iphone doesn't count :P)

 

First off thanks for the On Topic replies :)

 

But i feel i may have been a bit unclear and, misleading with my examples(zerks and pm's came to mind first so i used them as examples).\

 

My brother(the slanny player) is not using the counts as rules to drop a list like this on the table

x2 dp lash, x3 termicide, x2counts as zerkers x2 counts as pms 3x2 counts as oblits.

this is where i believe some confusion may have arisen for our intended use of counts as his list mlooks more like this

lord LC, sorce lash, 5 termis, 5 termis, 2x6 noise marines 2x12 slanny renegades 1x6 counts as zerks 1x6 counts as pm,

dreadie with sonic weaponry(can't remember what they counted as lol) and a couple of tanks, all his rhinos have havoc launchers

which count as sonic grenage launchers. sonic weaponry that counts as other weapons in the list etc.

He has played lists like these since we started playing 40k over a decade ago.

 

Now thats a far cry from taking the first list and saying "they're EC because i painted them pink and stuff"

 

What a lot of people seem to have missed is that i said these were NOT for tournament style play.

if i was to put the above mentioned list on the forum(in its entirety) what do you guys honestly think would happen?

 

MuGGzy Your models are amazing!!!! they are the essence of what i explained to my brother! Kudos to you my man!

on a side note i just finished the GreenStuff on my counts as zerkers for IW army they are succumbing to the obliterator virus slowly

and don't have enough control to make any but the most basic weapons first one has fleshy lumps sprouting guitar wire flails :P

 

Khaeron

[the jeske]

@jeske: If the previous list wast he be-all, end-all of CSM, how was I to field multiple Defilers *and* multiple Raptors under the previous list?

 

 

 

for multiple defilers you had IW[aka 4] . you could have taken one unit of raptors with them [and they sucked] . you could have taken more with NL [and only 3 defilers] and raptors still sucked.

 

more the way scoring works in 5th ed raptors got even worse. Before you could have run them as a demon bomb support unit [bikers were better] , they were overcosted not working but at least scoring . now they are still non scoring , not better then normal csm[that are scoring] ,force the use of sub par HQ [lord or sorc] to baby sit them , demon bomb is gone , GD are too slow to use .

 

But that is not the most importan part . in 3.5 if you were mad enough to play NL you could have made a build around bikes[or raptors] . It would be overcosted . gimped by the fact they had only furies . but it would work .[mostlly carried by HQs , vet skills and wargear] a bike/raptor army with the thorpe dex does not work . simple as that [because of the 5th scoring rules , true LoS ,being unable to claim objectives that are not on the ground etc] .

 

What a lot of people seem to have missed is that i said these were NOT for tournament style play.

see the thing with counts as is . In 3.5 when someone said I play ad mecha "IW" army you knew at sight what unit was what. what arment was doing what etc . the problem starts when this blast master is plasma gun and this one is a lascanon and those 8 NM are zerker ,but those 8 are pms [or "wait was it the other way around"] . yes when someone plays against a brother or someone who is with you 24/7 it is easier] [hell I remember testing armies using bases alone with pices of paper saying what unit is what before last tournament we had]. now imagine me or any other player who doesnt know your brother start a pick up game with your brother. I would need your brothers lists before the battle[that is something I hate to do] and then an a whole pre battle phase when he tells me what is what. each time he would mix up a units I would get an uneasy filling. But that is not all . I know that some people like to play against painted armies[not me I dont care what models look like as long as they are easy to identify] and may not have fun[what ever that is] playing something that looks like a EC army , but is not.

[Grey Mage]

One thing that would have helped a lot in maintening originality for the undivided legions (even the god ones) would have been to keep Veteran Skills.

 

Would that have been so hard? Or game breaking?

 

I'm coming to terms with "counts as" and its potential, but there is still a part of me that looks at my fully painted/customized/converted/cherished Alpha Legion army and hates the fact that they don't infiltrate anymore. I hate the fact that I'm looking into buying some rhinos. Heck, I don't even name my squads and Champions/Lords/DPs anymore...

 

And that tells me a lot.

THIS. This is what I see way to much of for a simple codex update.

[SquirrelKing]

THIS. This is what I see way to much of for a simple codex update.

 

I don't understand what you are saying Grey Mage. :)

 

I'd love to keep going but I'm not sure where you're leading! ;)

[Dammeron]

The brass tacks are thus:

 

Those who utilise "count as" to make up for the current codex's deficiencies are making the best of a bad situation, and I applaud them for it. I particularly applaud those who are using it as a springboard for creativity, thus demonstrating that no matter how acetic or befuddled the basis may be, the imagination and creativity of the fans will shine through. This is essentialy what keeps me anchored to the hobby; the sheer passion, enthusiasm and inspiration of the fan base. One only has to take a look at some of the Nurgle armies doing the rounds in the painting and modelling forums to see just how deeply some care about their armies, how much passion and enthusiasm they invest in them.

 

But the existence of "count as," its potential utilisation and the consistent creativity of the fans in no way excuses or dilutes the current codex's deficiences. At present, "count as" is the ONLY way of making up for its obvious faults. What should "count as" ideally be used as? Well, when the term first started to be used popularly (around the late 1990s), it referred to those who wanted something different from the standard "out of the box" miniatures; it was a way of personalising an existing force and making it something truly unique and special. It is supposed to ideally elevate certain aspects of the hobby; not alleviate the problems created by its arbiters.

 

The very fact that "count as" is now mandatory if one wishes to create a functionable and half way interesting army is demonstration in and of itself of just how poorly realised and under baked this codex is (this is before we even get onto the more objective analysis of comparing and contrasting it to those that came before and after, which are largely -barring the DA codex- of an evident and infinitely better quality). Furthermore, it is clear to me that many of the "decisions" made were entirely corporate in nature: the reason daemons were seperated from the Chaos Space Marines has absolutely NOTHING to do with background; there have been concurrently existing "daemon" army lists before that have NOT been seperate from the various other chaos forces. furthermore, before this codex there has NEVER been precedent for daemons being entirely seperated from Chaos Space Marines. The reason they were seperated was so that those whose collections included a wide variety of painstakingly converted and painted daemons would go out and buy ANOTHER army. Unfortunately, the daemon codex demonstrates what a poor idea this was; it is about as under baked as the Chaos Space Marine codex; woefully over-powered in some instances whilst simultaneously lamentable in others. Furthermore, the wasted page space in BOTH codicies (25+ pages in the Chaos Space Marine codex which consist of nothing more but recycled art work and miniature catalogues) would have been ample space to introduce some easy mechanism by which the two army lists could be incorporated into one another (in a suitably limited fashion, of course). There are also evident and obvious mechanisms via which factors in the last codex that were poorly implemented could have been fixed: daemon gifts could have been limited to a maximum of three per character, the tertiary and clunky army lists for the specific Traitor Legions could have been done away with by simply introducing particular upgrades for HQ characters that allow for adaptations of the core army list ( a la Codex Orks, Eldar, Space Marines...practically EVERY codex other than C:CSM).

 

I play Eldar as well. The Eldar codex, though flawed, is a fine example of how existing army lists can be refined yet still allow for a massive variety of experimentation and customisation. It retains all of the flavour and character of previous incarnations whilst excising over powered or problematic elements, furthermore, it allows for the easy creation of entirely unique Craftworlds if one so wishes. All this in a single army list. The Space Marine codex, though once again flawed, demonstrates the same consideration: the number of viable "builds," the potential for customising armies and individual models out shines Chaos by a number of degrees. Furthermore, the simple quality of these products in terms of their editing, their writing, their composition is vastly superior.

 

Chaos was lumped with a rushed and unfinished codex owing to some very poor business management on GW's part (it wasn't even on the cards until they realised the ork miniature line wouldn't be ready when expected).

 

Yes, it is getting tiresome this being the only real active topic on the chaos forums, but what do you expect? It was only through similar situations that the atrocious 3.0 codex was ever revised. Until the situation is fixed, it is going to come up again and again and again.

[Walter Payton]

Here is my take:

 

I dislike the new codex because of:

The cover art

The lack of fluff for my beloved Iron Warriors

The lack of legion specific options

Abbaddon figuratively having his balls cut off and fed to Huron Blackheart

No codex is ever as good as the one you start with

 

I like the new Codex because of:

Ease of use

Increased Renegade fluff (though at Perturabo's expense)

New special characters

Improved special characters in general. Except Abbaddon.

 

In my opinion the Codex will never be better than the one I started with, which had the distinction of beinmg my first ever codex. btw, What is all this 3.5 stuff? What edition am I playing? Here is the art:http://81.169.137.247/warhammer/chaos40k/43-01ENG.gif

That is my 2 cents

[Walter Payton]

I would also add that it is a shame that this codex is bad (in some eyes) because CSMs really are one of the most chracterful armies in the 41st Millenium

[Ashe Darke]

Ease of use

This part I can't stress enough. I do own the old codex but I never made an army using it having only gotten back into regularly playing about half a year ago after a long hiatus. But looking back at it now I feel daunted by how much stuff there is in there. It's almost too much and in some ways the lack of choice is a bit liberating as there are less combos to try before you find the optimum. The old system for wargear is a nightmare in comparison as well. But I do feel for those who miss it. I have a list that I'm happy with but I wanna branch out and try other things and I don't know where to go because there's very little else to chose from, most of it being unreliable. For some legions it does seem like to invite flavour in you need to push competitiveness out which sucks.

 

I wouldn't like to go back to the old PMs though, and part of me is concerned that in the next codex they won't be as good.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

Can some memeber please settle down. I had to delet two post.

 

Everone is free to there own view with in reason.

 

Insane Psychopath

[Grey Mage]

THIS. This is what I see way to much of for a simple codex update.

 

I don't understand what you are saying Grey Mage. :(

 

I'd love to keep going but I'm not sure where you're leading! :D

The guy who got me into 40k had 1 of each cult list, a black legion list, an iron warriors list, and a night lords list.... all with unique models for each legion. Over 14,000pts of Chaos. Now hes sold off four of those legions to fund fantasy armies *and yes, they were all painted*.

 

Another guy I know is in the alpha legion boat... hes recently considered starting a renegade gaurd codex heavy on the penal legions... but hes not sure. He rarely plays anymore.

 

Another guy I know played Black Legion heavy on the Khorne... and hasnt touched his chaos in over a year. Hes been playing his blood angels instead- because he cant stomach to read through the new codex again long enough to make a list. He gets half way through making a list and then notices something so wholly unfluffy or screwed up he has to either stop or hell start ranting over it.

 

And of course the local night lord player has completely switch to a counts-as blood angel list, but hes still not happy about it. He talked for months about the rumored chaos legions book... hes still waiting.

 

Theres two new guys who play chaos... none of them understand what the fuss is. Why wouldnt a Khorne Lord recruit noise marines and thousand sons for the core of his warband? Why wouldnt he be best friends or atleast close comrades with a Slaaneshi Daemonprince? We try to explain it to them... and they say that it doesnt say that in the codex, so they dont know where were getting such nonsense. After about six months of that someone finally got tired enough to bring in 2nd-3.5 chaos books and have them look through it.

 

There response? "WOW, cool! I wonder why they left out this from the new book?" and not just over units either... one of them is considering repainting to a night lord color, but isnt sure its worth it- the other is scouring black library for more fluff, because the current codex has so little.

 

Ive yet to see a Chaos Player *in person* who was from before the most recent codex who liked it over the older books.

[Cale]

Ive yet to see a Chaos Player *in person* who was from before the most recent codex who liked it over the older books.

 

I have. In fact, every single Chaos player I know prefers the new Codex to the old one. They're not really troubled about the fact that you can play Noise Marines in a Khorne army--because they're smart enough to figure out that they don't have to do it if they don't want to.

 

The new codex does remove some of the old codex's options, and some of those removals are seriously losses. On the whole, though, it's only less flavorful for players who make it that way.

 

I have yet to meet a chaos player, in person, who actually likes the old codex more than the new one.

[Grey Mage]

*spreads hands* Dunno, maybe its a cultural thing... midwestern vs northwestern you know? *shrugs*.

[The Nephilim]

Ive yet to see a Chaos Player *in person* who was from before the most recent codex who liked it over the older books.

 

I have. In fact, every single Chaos player I know prefers the new Codex to the old one. They're not really troubled about the fact that you can play Noise Marines in a Khorne army--because they're smart enough to figure out that they don't have to do it if they don't want to.

 

The new codex does remove some of the old codex's options, and some of those removals are seriously losses. On the whole, though, it's only less flavorful for players who make it that way.

 

I have yet to meet a chaos player, in person, who actually likes the old codex more than the new one.

 

Less flavorful because I make it that way? The loss of my sonic terminators, that I spent over $200 converting, my sonic bikers, which was closer to $300, my sonic tanks and dreadnaughts... all lost because I made it that way?

 

Riiiiiggggghhhhttt... Well for all of those that lost similarly to me, I guess its our fault that the new codex is less flavorful.