did chaos cults really lose out?

[Ashe Darke]

I have yet to meet a chaos player, in person, who actually likes the old codex more than the new one.

I have, but I don't hold his opinion in high regard and not because of that.

 

Personally I think it comes down to what you take from the hobby and you think is more important fluff vs the game, making an army you like the look/feel of vs one that will just dominate. While I do enjoy my fluff I'd rather make a more effective army, not that I don't do themes (I do DG, no mixing) but that is what makes it fun for me.

 

And yes I do agree that this version of the codex does not necessarily stick to the fluff but I don't think the previous one did either if we're getting down to it. In my opinion infiltrators =/= AL and cool unique rules would do well to represent the better. The last book didn't have that either. Same can be said for NL as well which is a shame as they have some really cool backgrounds.

 

This is the same across pretty much everything GW does, inconsistencies with fluff vs the game. People can take Marneus Calgar and have him leading an Imperial Fists army. There's no rules stopping you but it doesn't make any sense (unless you make some far fetched story), you can do any number of combinations that don't make sense fluff wise because there's no rules saying you can't. It's not like this is the only book.

 

Less flavorful because I make it that way? The loss of my sonic terminators, that I spent over $200 converting, my sonic bikers, which was closer to $300, my sonic tanks and dreadnaughts... all lost because I made it that way?

 

Riiiiiggggghhhhttt... Well for all of those that lost similarly to me, I guess its our fault that the new codex is less flavorful.

Not that I'm suggesting this is a solution but isn't there an Apoc formation that allows you to use models like that?

[Cale]

Ive yet to see a Chaos Player *in person* who was from before the most recent codex who liked it over the older books.

 

I have. In fact, every single Chaos player I know prefers the new Codex to the old one. They're not really troubled about the fact that you can play Noise Marines in a Khorne army--because they're smart enough to figure out that they don't have to do it if they don't want to.

 

The new codex does remove some of the old codex's options, and some of those removals are seriously losses. On the whole, though, it's only less flavorful for players who make it that way.

 

I have yet to meet a chaos player, in person, who actually likes the old codex more than the new one.

 

Less flavorful because I make it that way? The loss of my sonic terminators, that I spent over $200 converting, my sonic bikers, which was closer to $300, my sonic tanks and dreadnaughts... all lost because I made it that way?

 

Riiiiiggggghhhhttt... Well for all of those that lost similarly to me, I guess its our fault that the new codex is less flavorful.

 

I'm willing to concede that the all-sonic-weapon slaanesh list was basically wrecked beyond recovery, and that it is a shame, and that it's not your fault. One of the few exceptions. ;)

 

Night lords, World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Iron Warriors, Death Guard. None of these can really say the same.

[The Nephilim]

Less flavorful because I make it that way? The loss of my sonic terminators, that I spent over $200 converting, my sonic bikers, which was closer to $300, my sonic tanks and dreadnaughts... all lost because I made it that way?

 

Riiiiiggggghhhhttt... Well for all of those that lost similarly to me, I guess its our fault that the new codex is less flavorful.

Not that I'm suggesting this is a solution but isn't there an Apoc formation that allows you to use models like that?

Yeah... Because I only play Apoc games...

 

;)

[The Nephilim]

Night lords, World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Iron Warriors, Death Guard. None of these can really say the same.

 

I think we'd be arguing a bit here, but I can concede the point on the scale, they didn't loose as much. You want a Dark Apostle with a cursed crozius? Give him MoT and a daemon weapon. Some of the legions lost the customization they were capable of with their ForceOrg chart, but as a whole, I agree with you there.

 

What irks me, is the SM players that screamed broken that a NL player could field 4 bike squads, a SM marine player could field an entire bike army now with an HQ choice... The ForceOrg customization was stripped from our codex and given to loyalists. And we have the :censored: Gav to thank for that.

[Cale]

Night lords, World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Iron Warriors, Death Guard. None of these can really say the same.

 

I think we'd be arguing a bit here, but I can concede the point on the scale, they didn't loose as much. You want a Dark Apostle with a cursed crozius? Give him MoT and a daemon weapon. Some of the legions lost the customization they were capable of with their ForceOrg chart, but as a whole, I agree with you there.

 

What irks me, is the SM players that screamed broken that a NL player could field 4 bike squads, a SM marine player could field an entire bike army now with an HQ choice... The ForceOrg customization was stripped from our codex and given to loyalists. And we have the :censored: Gav to thank for that.

 

The legions that lost customization didn't lose very significant customization. One HS or FA slot more or less just isn't earth-shattering. It certainly isn't capable of destroying the flavor of an army.

 

As for bike armies, I agree that SM players are idiots to complain about chaos bikers. That being said, Chaos players are idiots to complain about the Marine codex. After all is said and done, CSM still have the stronger book by a good margin. (Space Wolves are certainly up there, though). Loyalists have always had access to more substantial FO customization than Chaos--even with the old book. Marines have been able to do Terminator armies and biker armies through the DA, Assault Marine armies through BA, Biker armies in both the current and prior vanilla codices.

 

So, that last part is basically wrong. CSM lost an almost negligent amount of FO customization. Everything Marines have now, they've had for a while. They lost some minor stuff from their last codex, too, for the record.

[Brother Nihm]

Chaos players are idiots to complain about the Marine codex. After all is said and done, CSM still have the stronger book by a good margin.

I don't see how complaining about Marines having variety vs. our lack thereof - as idiocy. Most of the complaints about C:SM I've seen from Chaos players is about just that, not about the shiny toys.

 

An example is C:SM Special Characters that are actually special and do something for the entire army, as opposed to putting a model to the table with a funky stat-line.

[Cale]

I was approaching it from a standpoint of effectiveness. It would be idiotic to complain about the SM codex's effectiveness, because, despite their greater variety of options, the CSM codex is still more powerful. More options doesn't mean a more effective book, nor does it mean a more 'flavorful' book.

[Kythnos]

I was approaching it from a standpoint of effectiveness. It would be idiotic to complain about the SM codex's effectiveness, because, despite their greater variety of options, the CSM codex is still more powerful. More options doesn't mean a more effective book, nor does it mean a more 'flavorful' book.

 

But more options are still more options to play around with, so you won't end up with really similar builds all of the time. I'm not saying, there aren't any options left at all (as an IW player, I still have most of the stuff I used to have, although I definitely miss stuff like Servoarms and siege experts), but I do personally think, that these little legion-specific options were the fine bit of spice, that made the legions, apart from gameplay, different from each other. I wouldn't have minded too much, if my IW now play the same as Night Lords on the table if they'd at least left us with these little wargears and veteran skills. But right now, my army plays the same like the other legions, has the same options like the other legions and even within my changing army lists, I'm not able to find a list that plays really different from any other I've written. And that is the point, that makes me feel bitter about this codex.

I do still play with my IW and am having fun with them - but that's less to the army and it's tricks than more to the people I play with.

[the jeske]

So, that last part is basically wrong. CSM lost an almost negligent amount of FO customization. Everything Marines have now, they've had for a while. They lost some minor stuff from their last codex, too, for the record.

what?

EC sonic army. gone . impossible to build with the new dex. Any form of demon bomb [and there were played out of EC, BL, WB] gone impossible to build , because demons are no longer in the codex. AL with their cultists . gone . no culitists no infiltration.

 

 

In my opinion infiltrators =/= AL and cool unique rules would do well to represent the better.

in 3.5 they got cultists and infiltration, but that doesnt show their sneakines enough. the gav dex kills their options and turns them in to a clone army , giving no specials rules and with 0 chance[5th ed desing philosphpy no special FoC, no special lists outside of FW products] to get those"specials rules" . ergo . Gav dex is better. yes that does make sense.

 

 

 

I was approaching it from a standpoint of effectiveness.

yes but to be effective I have to play one of the two possible builds or go for a tier 2 lists. A salamander player if he gets bored/doesnt like the vulkan build he does a counts as khan or counts as pedro and gets a good list that is different. A chaos players options are do I go LR rush or do I go rhino mecha, and this is forgetting that back in the 3.5 legion lists were sometimes different from each other in gameplay.

[Ashe Darke]

I wasn't saying it was better Jeske. I was just saying that I don't think they were well represented in 3.5 either.

[Cale]

So, that last part is basically wrong. CSM lost an almost negligent amount of FO customization. Everything Marines have now, they've had for a while. They lost some minor stuff from their last codex, too, for the record.

what?

EC sonic army. gone . impossible to build with the new dex. Any form of demon bomb [and there were played out of EC, BL, WB] gone impossible to build , because demons are no longer in the codex. AL with their cultists . gone . no culitists no infiltration.

 

We were talking about the ability to modify the force organization chart, not unit options. And Daemons are definitely still in the codex, even if you don't particularly like their current incarnation.

 

 

I was approaching it from a standpoint of effectiveness.

yes but to be effective I have to play one of the two possible builds or go for a tier 2 lists. A salamander player if he gets bored/doesnt like the vulkan build he does a counts as khan or counts as pedro and gets a good list that is different. A chaos players options are do I go LR rush or do I go rhino mecha, and this is forgetting that back in the 3.5 legion lists were sometimes different from each other in gameplay.

 

Sure, but those two builds in the CSM codex are better than anything you get out of the loyalist codex. I'm not sure that having piles of varient lists is better than having one or two better lists.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I've never met somebody in real life that had knowledge of both codexes and preferred the new one. But then again i'm pretty much the only chaos player left at my store. There used to be a lot more. They have all switched to different armies or quit.

 

Cale i'm going to have to disagree. Your argument seems to boil down that no options is better than options that maybe didn't represent the legion properly. I'll put forward that the previous codex had something like 20 viable t1 and t2 lists. The current codex has in the area of 5 or 6. Jeske would know better. That alone should be enough to end any dispute on this topic.

[Cale]

I've never met somebody in real life that had knowledge of both codexes and preferred the new one. But then again i'm pretty much the only chaos player left at my store. There used to be a lot more. They have all switched to different armies or quit.

 

I don't know anyone in real life that has knowledge of both codices and prefers the old one. And I know a couple who still play chaos.

 

Cale i'm going to have to disagree. Your argument seems to boil down that no options is better than options that maybe didn't represent the legion properly. I'll put forward that the previous codex had something like 20 viable t1 and t2 lists. The current codex has in the area of 5 or 6. Jeske would know better. That alone should be enough to end any dispute on this topic.

 

That wasn't my point at all. My point was that the CSM codex fields more powerful armies than the SM codex, despite having less options. I never said anything about representing legions properly.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I was responding to things said before the SM codex came up. But i disagree with you on that too.

 

The CSM codex offers 2 powerful lists - Landraider rush and mech rhino. The loyalist codex offers more. They have their own land raider rush (with different pros and cons). Then they also have a strong Khan build, vulkan, and pedro builds. So that's 4 vs 2. Then chaos has only a couple tier 2 lists whereas loyalists have a ton.

 

Even if it were true that the chaos list was more powerful than anything loyalists can do, I would say the loyalist codex still wins out due to character, customization and fluff. There is more to this hobby than just list effectiveness.

[Unguis Raptus]

Night lords, World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Iron Warriors, Death Guard. None of these can really say the same.

 

That hurts... I miss infiltrate and visage on my Night Lords :)

[Cale]

Sure, but list effectiveness is certainly a big part of the hobby, too.

[Ashe Darke]

I've never met somebody in real life that had knowledge of both codexes and preferred the new one. But then again i'm pretty much the only chaos player left at my store. There used to be a lot more. They have all switched to different armies or quit.

Switching armies doesn't necessarily indicate that, I used to play nids, I don't any more, but that's not because I feel there are problems with the codex. Not that I'm saying they didn't switch because of that reason. Anyway quitting.

 

Unless they exclusively quit because of the change in the codex you can't necessarily pin that to it. I stopped for a good long time, it was nothing to do with my feelings about any of my previous armies (in fact this codex got me playing again), I just had more going on in my life. Maybe their chaos army was the hobby for them and it became invalid and they quit but I don't think that's fair on the other armies, some are pretty cool. Going 'it's chaos or nothing' is a bit narrow minded. Or maybe they realised that things with GW change every now and again and didn't feel like investing money in something which could potentially become invalid again. Which for them might have been the right choice. But if you are going to get involved in a hobby like this then expecting it not to change, especially given it's track record, is a bit of an over sight. If you can deal with the fact that with new iterations things will change then that's great you'll be fine, for some people cracking the latest codex/rulebook is the reason why they play, but if not then don't be surprised when stuff like this happens. If this causes you to have beef with GW then fair enough, but it's their company and IP and they can do what they want. Not that I always agree with their business models. Why does a part timer who works 8 hours a week, and will always been working with a full timer, need to be trained to be a manager?

 

But anyway, examples of people you know and what they like proves nothing as it's such a small sample. I know both people who prefer the old one and people who prefer the new one, I know people who put their IW armies away and some who started them up. There's a sizeable portion of regulars who play chaos quite a bit and I can think of 2 guys who have started chaos armies recently. What does that prove? The people of my relatively small city are a mixed. And that's representative of everyone who has an opinion on the matter? No. So shall we just agree that all angles are covered on who prefers what as far as people we know goes.

[refuse]

I was thinking that I might just spraypaint all of my ECs grey and have them 'count as' whichever army is the strongest at any given time. I think I'll have all of my models 'count as' Imperial Guard seeing as that's just been released.

 

Better yet, why not just get rid of my models on ebay and use various fruit and vegetables as 'count as' whatever I choose? Feel the power of my Aubergine Carnifex, Melon Monolith and Noise Prunes.

Can we nominate this for post of the year, 2009?

I almost cried reading that. LOL.

[nurglez]

I started playing in 3rd edition, when i just had a collection of random units and didnt play much.

 

when 4th edition came out, i ran a squad of plaguemarines, and really enjoyed using them, i then bought a daemon prince, converted it to nurgle, and started using my "normal" squads as plaguemarines (was playing with friends so count as was all good).

 

Then, i actually started running a pure DG army, putting nurgle's rot on all my champions, having some DG havocs with 4 plasma, using nurglings, even some DG possessed and termies.

 

Come 5th edition codex, for me to run a "pure" DG list, all i have to chose from is a prince, lord, typhus, dreads, plaguemarines, and tanks. thats it, I'll still run armies like this, but I feel I lose the character of my army, if I could properly mark my squads, instead of giving them an icon that they can lose, then I'd be a lot happier.

 

Give me back my nurglings and nurgle's rot then everything would be forgiven, well, forgotten maybe :D

[refuse]

Are the players so lacking in imagination that they cannot create their own Fluff, that it must be spoon-fed to them by the designers? Given a broad list of options that never get used, why keep them? And why can't players follow their own "legion" rules?

You mean besides an entire wiki dedicated to slaanesh, and forum, and AoD and more?

Why can't "designers" (yes i quoted them) support all variations and enhance a product instead of design by removal?

 

 

For the record, I played Fallen Angels as my second army, and I have all of the Chaos Codices, along with RoC StD, so saying I don't have the Chaos roots to comment is untrue. There are lots of reasons to like the current book, and reasons to dislike the previous book. Given the choice, I prefer the current Codex because it offers a lot more freedom to me as a player, and less confusion across the table.

Again, as others have said. The other book had all the options, you could choose to limit yourself and gain more for less.

Follow only Slaanesh and get only Slaanesh. Now, well. . .

Now I can do anythign (except Noise Marines, and other cult armies)

 

 

But the existence of "count as," its potential utilisation and the consistent creativity of the fans in no way excuses or dilutes the current codex's deficiences. At present, "count as" is the ONLY way of making up for its obvious faults. What should "count as" ideally be used as? Well, when the term first started to be used popularly (around the late 1990s), it referred to those who wanted something different from the standard "out of the box" miniatures; it was a way of personalising an existing force and making it something truly unique and special. It is supposed to ideally elevate certain aspects of the hobby; not alleviate the problems created by its arbiters.

Can I say I love you? Is that so wrong? I followed Slaanesh.

As you say, the original version of Count as was to extend the system, now it is to be in the system.

 

 

I have. In fact, every single Chaos player I know prefers the new Codex to the old one. They're not really troubled about the fact that you can play Noise Marines in a Khorne army--because they're smart enough to figure out that they don't have to do it if they don't want to.

You mean besides all the others that post here?

I do have to count as to do my army. All Noise Marines? Nope. All 29th great company? Nope.

Hell I did count as to create armies before, but that was as Dammeron said, to extend the game. Now I have to do it to play the game (which I don't).

To be honest, you can have noise marines in an Khorne army, but you can't have a noise marine army!

And why would you want to have Noise Marines in a Khorne army? The fluff says no! So we can now violate the very premise of why are armies are on the board. As mentioned above, might as well use fruit.

The new codex does remove some of the old codex's options, and some of those removals are seriously losses. On the whole, though, it's only less flavorful for players who make it that way.

 

I have yet to meet a chaos player, in person, who actually likes the old codex more than the new one.

On the whole as long as you played "hard core chaos" you mean?

Noise Marine armies gone.

Elite Slaanesh armies (that stay slaanesh/cult all game) gone.

Slaanesh Daemons enhancing your army gone (unless you count generic daemons as equivalent to daemonettes, gone).

So if you play vanilla chaos, yeah, it is only less flavorful than flavored icecream.

[Ashe Darke]

Come 5th edition codex, for me to run a "pure" DG list

There is no 5th Ed codex. The edition numbers for a codex are done on what edition of the rulebook was out when the codex was released. Seen as 4th Ed was out when the current chaos codex was released, it would be the 4th Ed book. This is why there is 3rd and 3.5th Ed chaos codexes as chaos got two during the time 3rd Ed rules were in effect. That's my understanding of it anyway.

[The 13th Goat]

While on a practical level we did benifit, i do feel we lost out in respect to fluff and characters. The chapter tactics rules used by SM specials is great, and someting that should be with us as well. Plus by basically making Chaos one genric force I find the actual desire to play specials to be useless, considering the points could be better allocated elsewhere.

 

Players that want a Khorn, or Slaaneshi army arn't hindered, in my opinion. Cults are troop choices, no one is stopping you buying ONLY that cult. Sure, you lost legion specific rules for the other choices, but i hardly see that as a major loss, at least for cult orientated players. Night Lord and Alpha Legion players possibly have a lot more to feel griped at, all things considered. But hey, thats just my opinion.

 

In short:

New Dex

Pros/Cons

 

Pros / Cons

5 Troops choices / Naff Fluff

Strong Templates / Few serious options

Strong Characters / Nothing new or actually worthwhile

Emphasis on Warbands / Legions are pretty much finished

 

I will keep in mind that the Legions are supposed to be fragmented and fractured, but collecting Iron Warriors doesn't feel like i'm collecting the seige experts as much as collecting the guys wearing their colours. Which is a shame.

 

Still, playing Noise Marines in Iron Warriors colours is... novel :P

[The Nephilim]

And I'd like everyone that doesn't understand to look at the quote in Refuse's sig. I'll even be kind enough to recap it for you.

 

Seriously, if you tried telling Space Wolves, or any of the other Loyalist Chapters that they can still have an army if they lose their codex, they just have to paint them that way, you'd be hanged.

 

The sole root of the problem for many of us is that now are are just a paint scheme, when before we were so much more.

 

Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Black Templar, hell even Grey Knights... All loyalist power armor wearing Marines get rolled into Codex: Space Marines, take away all of the individual legions traits and replace them with vanilla ones. Imagine Grey Knights without demon-killing gear. Blood Angels with no more death company. You want death company? Take an honor guard and give them jump packs. Or Black Templars without Oaths or the Emperor's Champion. What's that? You want your Emperor's Champion? Make him a Marine captain and give him a powersword, there ya go.

 

Imagine that codex. That's what happened to Chaos. And yeah, there's a million posts on the subject across all the boards that have Chaos players. Is it gonna stop? No. Our voices in the community is unheard. We're labled whiners, dissenters, etc... We'll continue voice our opinion on a sub-par codex until it's fixed.

 

That's why we're upset/disgruntled/angry.

[Dan The Deamon]

Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Black Templar, hell even Grey Knights... All loyalist power armor wearing Marines get rolled into Codex: Space Marines, take away all of the individual legions traits and replace them with vanilla ones. Imagine Grey Knights without demon-killing gear. Blood Angels with no more death company. You want death company? Take an honor guard and give them jump packs. Or Black Templars without Oaths or the Emperor's Champion. What's that? You want your Emperor's Champion? Make him a Marine captain and give him a powersword, there ya go.

 

That's why we're upset/disgruntled/angry.

 

Eloquent

 

That sums up my feelings. While it does no good to repeat them I feel like every time I try and create a fluffy, competitive, scary army, my only option is 'which mark am i going to give these guys?". I have to find a good way to explain why my Tzeentch Lord with a deamon weapon and a disk is in fact using a jetpack, lightning claws, and a bolter. Then fluff nazis try and claw my eyes out because my Night Lord is marked. If i played him 'pure' he'd be loosing in combat to a pair of guardsmen. That embarrasses me more than counts as.

 

Such a shame

[Grey Mage]

I was approaching it from a standpoint of effectiveness. It would be idiotic to complain about the SM codex's effectiveness, because, despite their greater variety of options, the CSM codex is still more powerful. More options doesn't mean a more effective book, nor does it mean a more 'flavorful' book.

1) Flavor is important to most people. Even if its not for you, you should accept this.

2) I think your misinformed. C:SM>C:CSM as an army. While specific CSM units may win out, the SM army has more tactical flexability, more effective ways of doing things, and better characters.

 

CSM gets some things a little cheaper... but not by much. About the only thing CSMs can boast of for greater power all around is obliterators vs devastators... wich is hardly an even comparison. A CSM squad kitted out costs atleast as much a similarly kitted out Tactical squad, usually more so due to free specials/heavies. Chaos Dreads are cheaper sure, but theyre also insane... wich really ways heavily in the cost/benefit analysis. HQs? A Chaos Lord isnt more killy than a SM Captain base, and when you start adding marks and daemon weapons and such the comparison is pretty close- when it comes to special characters SMs win hands down.

 

CSMs real advantage over SMs is in CC, and that many SM players dont bring enough in the way of assault units to hold a Chaos Player in check. You get a good player with a balanced list vs a player of equal skill with a balanced list and SMs will win more often than not.