Cover Saves, Vehicles and Area Terrain

[MadCowCrazy]

I first posted this over at Heresy and figured Id post it here to get your point of views.

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52848

Basically its an argument on whether or not a vehicle gains a cover save when shooting at it through area terrain, woods in this case.

I will just copy paste my important posts from that thread.

 

For easy refference, post 1 is a introduction to the argument, post 2 is a gathering on all the rules, post 3 is GW response when I called them and asked them about it.

 

So how do you guys play it?

What is your experience with area terrain and vehicles?

 

 

Post 1:

Ok, so last friday I went to the club and was looking at the local pro kicking the ass of a tyranid player. As always the local pro had tons of terrain on his side while the tyranid player had 2 pieces. After looking at the battle for 10 minutes I got bored because of all the strange rules the "pro" was declaring, and when his blasts weapons scattered they always seemed to scatter right into units.

Like the frag rocket he shot, it scattered and he placed it so it was hitting 5 models. The other played said "Hey :), thats not the direction it scattered in" and moved it to where it should have hit, it was not only hittin 2 targets.

 

When talking to other ppl at the club they say he pretty much always pulls :D like this, which is why allot of people dont want to play vs him.

 

Anyways, once the battle was over I confronted him about the way he was kicking my ass the week before and about him shooting between trees and that not giving me cover saves.

I discussed what I had been told on the forums here (that I should have been given a 4+ cover save) but he said those rules are only for infantry.

 

I know I had read about it in the rulebook and this is what I found in the BRB on pg. 22.

Exceptions :

Firing through units or area terrain: If a model fires through the gaps between some elements of area terrain (such as between two trees in a wood) or though the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the TARGET is in cover, EVEN IF IT IS COMPLETLY VISIBLE TO THE FIRER.

Does not count for shots going over the terrain.

 

So basically, I parked my exorcists and rhinos behind area terrain but they only got a cover save when a tree was directly in the way of LOS.

However according to these rules I should get a cover save no matter what.

 

So I showed him the statement and again he said its only for infantry and not for vehicles.

 

I looked over the vehicle section and the ONLY thing I can find is this pg. 62:

Vehicles are not obscurred simply for being INSIDE area terrain. The 50% rule given above takes precedence.

 

However, I was not INSIDE area terrain, I was BEHIND it.

 

So here I am again, asking you guys about rules that to me seem pretty obvious but have no merit since hes a "pro" and Im a noob.

 

So who is right and who is wrong?

 

If Im wrong please point me to a page number where it specifically says that when shooting a VEHICLE THROUGH AREA TERRAIN they dont get a cover save if you see more than 50% of the vehicle.

 

 

Post 2:

I just read through the rules one more time and you are right Coffemug, the rules are clear but if you dont pay attention you will missinterpret them.

 

Im going to list out everything Ive read in favour of my point of view (Im going to call GW tomorrow and ask them anyways and will report back what they said).

 

Pg. 16 : True Line of Sight

CLEARLY states you need to determine LOS from the head (can be interpreted as from weapon as well for vehicles) of a model to the body (head, arms, legs and torso. Flags, wings etc dont count) of the target.

This is pretty clear right?

 

Pg. 62 : Vehicles and Cover - Obscured Targets

The difference from the way cover works for other models is represented by the following EXCEPTIONS to the NORMAL rules for cover.

This is pretty clear right? The rules below override the NORMAL rules for cover.

 

 

Pg. 62 : Bullet Point

The first bullet point CLEARLY states that atleast 50% of the facing of the vehicle that is being targeted needs to be hidden by INTERVENING TERRAIN or models from the point of view of the firer for the vehicle to claim to be in cover.

This seems pretty clear right? The vehicle needs to be ATLEAST 50% obscurred by INTERVENING TERRAIN (by this we can assume ANY and ALL terrain and terrain types)

 

Pg. 21 : Cover Saves

This page lists all the NORMAL rules for cover, it explains types when a model is in cover and so fourth.

This seems pretty clear right? You read the page and you get all the NORMAL rules for cover.

 

 

Pg. 22 : Exceptions to the Normal cover save rules.

This is where I believe you got it wrong Coffemug. You are right about page 62 stating a vehicle needs to be atleast 50% obscurred by INTERVENING TERRAIN.

The page allso says that the bullet points on that page are exceptions to the NORMAL rules for cover.

 

So back to page 22, whats on this page? Well, its not NORMAL rules for cover, it lists all the EXCEPTIONS to the normal rules.

In order to keep the game flowing at a faster pace, we have made a fiew EXCEPTIONS to the cover rules given on the previous page (page 21).

 

The 3rd bullet point CLEARLY STATES : If a model fires THROUGH the gaps BETWEEN some elements of AREA TERRAIN (such as BETWEEN TWO TREES in a wood) or through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, THE TARGET IS IN COVER, EVEN IF IT IS COMPLETLY VISIBLE TO THE FIRER.

 

I rest my case.

I can see how many people can get this wrong, Im not 100% sure Im right either since I have never been to a tourney and have only played 2 games in total. So my argument is pretty much nul and void because I lack experience with the game. But this is the way I read the rules. It sucks they have not given any examples of shooting through area terrain on the vehicle page so this is what we have to work with.

The Inquisition is probobly going to pimpslap my post but I hope the way I read the rules is pretty clear.

 

Will be interesting to see what GW says about this tomorrow.

 

Maby the exceptions to the normal rules are actually part of the normal rules? and should be counted as normal rules eventhough they are exceptions. You never know with GW.

 

Post 3:

Ok, I just called GW in the UK, GW in Finland and GW in Sweden.

They all had different points of view on the subject.

 

GW UK : You dont get a cover save, the more I asked him pointing out my arguments the less he became sure intil he finally said he simply did not know.

He first said that the rules on pg. 62 override the rules on pg. 22 (all of them), this would mean vehicles CANT shoot through their own units or over barriers even if you if LOS over a wall for instance. When I pointed out that makes no sence he became unsure. So I asked to talk to someone else but there was noone else there today.

 

GW Finland : They basically said its something you need to discuss with you opponent at the start of the game, to determine how much terrain is really on the pieces.

 

GW Sweden : You do get a cover save, basically area terrain (woods) has allot more terrain features on it than you usually put on them. He gave an example if you use are 15" by 15" piece of terrain, it counts as area terrain but only has a single tree on it. You get a cover save for being behind it because in reality it would have hundreds of trees on it.

He allso said in regards to true line of sight that its ment to help you in regards to area terrain. If you played the way the rules for area terrain are written then you would not be allowed to shoot through woods at all, because woods would 100% BLOCK LOS.

As a compromise they came up with the exception on pg. 22 : Firing through units or area terrain.

 

So what does this tell us? Well, basically nothing.

I guess you would have to discuss it with your opponent at the start of the battle.

 

How dense is the forrest on this piece of terrain? Is it only 2 trees on it, or does it count as a forrest? Does it block LOS or can you see through it?

 

This argument only seems to affect terrain with woods on them, so the question is, how much LOS do trees block on a area terrain piece?

 

 

Could you guys call up you local GW stores and ask how they rule? Be sure to bring up the way the rules are written in my example at the top. If they say you dont get a cover save ask if that means the rules on pg. 62 override the exceptions on pg. 22. If they say yes then ask which rules on pg. 22 it overrides, all of them or some of them?

If they say you do get a cover save ask why, how LOS works in regard to woods on area terrain. Try to get as much info as you can, then report back here.

[JamesI]

Area terrain does not give cover to Vehicles/Monsterous Creatures. They only recieve cover if 50% of the model is covered. So, if the trees of the forest actually block LOS to them, sure they get cover. If the trees are not placed so they block LOS, no cover.

[ShinyRhino]

Area terrain does not give cover to Vehicles/Monsterous Creatures. They only recieve cover if 50% of the model is covered. So, if the trees of the forest actually block LOS to them, sure they get cover. If the trees are not placed so they block LOS, no cover.

 

Exactly this, though many folks houserule it back to the old edition style where shooting through area terrain at anything gives a cover save.

The best way to ensure even cover saves for area terrain like trees is to place at least 3 trees on each area marker. At our shop we use green felt pads to represent the area, and then plop 3-4 Citadel trees on the pad. Almost guarantees you block 50% of a vehicle from TLOS.

[Valerian]

Here is my opinion on this issue. Not all will agree, I am sure.

 

1. As you know, only regular troops get an "automatic" Cover save for being in area terrain. It makes sense that an infantry unit passing through a wooded area, building ruins, or a bomb crater can duck and take cover while in or behind such terrain.

 

2. Vehicles do not and should not get an "automatic" Cover save for being in or behind area terrain. It is unreasonable to think that such a large target (and one that cannot drop to the ground, or duck behind a rock or wall) should get this same Cover save advantage as an infantry model would. That is why the rules state that at least 50% of the vehicle model must actually be obscured before the terrain actually grants a Cover save for the model.

 

3. Combined with True Line of Sight (TLOS) of 5th Edition, this convention works well in many cases, such as when the vehicle is attemping to "hide" behind a building, hill, or large rock (terrain that is typically not considered to be area terrain). Figuring out obscuration and Cover saves are relatively easy by taking the firing "model's eye view" to determine if most of the target vehicle is within line of sight or not.

 

4. There are other cases, however, where this convention does not work well., such as with certain types of area terrain. Rereading the section on area terrain (page 13 of BRB), we see that area terrain is often modelled as an abstraction "to represent" what that terrain is supposed to be like on the battlefield. Instead of making a wooded area, for example, a tangled mass of trees, vines, and undergrowth, we can simply define the boundaries of the terrain and throw a couple model trees in there to "represent" the terrain piece. Furthermore, we can even move those trees around to make room for models passing through, and it isn't a big deal.

 

5. Understanding, then, that some (but not all!) pieces of area terrain are abstractions of what actually is supposed to be on the battlefield, then the TLOS method fails. Should not a dense forest of tall, mature hardwood trees block Line of Sight, or at least provide cover to a vehicle passing behind, or through those woods? This is where the following point from the rulebook becomes extremely important:

 

"You should discuss all such terrain features with your opponent before the game and agree exactly what everything counts as and where boundaries of terrain features lie." BRB page 13.

 

If you fail to do so, then you and/or your opponent are bound to be dissapointed.

 

Valerian

[InquisitorHayn]

While all of the above is definitely worthy of consideration in your particular situation, there is a factor that seems to be missing that I noticed while reading this thread. Where was your opponent exactly in relation to the area terrain? In most situations, the aforementioned rules would apply and the debate rages on but, if your opponent played his hand correctly, then it may be a moot point. I don't have my rule book in front of me at the moment, but IIRC it states that if troops are in area terrain positioned no more than two inches from the edge closest to the target, then the target does not receive a cover save as the unit has positioned itself in such a way as to have a clear shot.

 

Hope this helps and good luck with the doucher.