ANCIENT FALOR Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 im doing my first space marine army.ive gone with the red hunters. theres no real fluff to them. so im making my own up. now how likely is that they would be an imperial fist successor? being close to the inquisition i would assume the use of ultramarines or IF geneseed. i rather go imperial fist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188429-possible-primarch-for-red-hunters/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 2 Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 im doing my first space marine army.ive gone with the red hunters. theres no real fluff to them. so im making my own up. now how likely is that they would be an imperial fist successor? being close to the inquisition i would assume the use of ultramarines or IF geneseed. i rather go imperial fist. I think I responded to you on another thread today about the Red Hunters. The Ultramarines would make the most sense and I too agree that the 7 million number is absurd. At any rate, I think that despite the Ultramarines making sense the Inquisition tends to be somewhat fanatic in what they do. If you've read the Eisenhorn series (or pretty much anything else inquisition) you'll see what I mean. Having said that I thought it would be cool if the Red Hunters thought their Primarch was Guilliman but in reality it was Lorgar (of the Word Bearers). Lorgar would make sense if any high level Inquisition member or Terra Lord had any say in which gene seed would be used Lorgar and the Word Bearers would certainly make sense for their religious fanatical zeal. Afterall if Lorgar hadn't written the Lectitio Divinatus while he was still worshipping the Emperor the Emperor cult may never have been created in the first place. Lorgar was just ahead of his time. You could even claim that only a tiny fraction of high level Inquisitors actually know the truth of the matter. Another gene seed which would make perfect sense *Spoiler* in Flight of the Eisenstein some loyal members of the Death Guard make it to the moon during the Heresy. No one knows exactly what happened to them. It would make perfect sense that they would be the originators of the Excorsists and Red Hunters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188429-possible-primarch-for-red-hunters/#findComment-2230062 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 2 Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 On the last point I made there was also one Luna Wolf that made it out on the Eisenstein. Having said that you could even claim the Red Hunters Primarch is Horus himself using the gene seed from Iacton Qruze. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188429-possible-primarch-for-red-hunters/#findComment-2230066 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Orlock Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Just about anyone who attempts to use the whole 'redeemed traitor seed' idea makes my eyes roll. I've yet to observe a way to do this that didn't make the player look either ignorant or foolish. Gulliman or Dorn are common and acceptable lines of decent. I'd suggest taking a look at what little fluff is available and seeing if you can't find a similarity of combat docterine between them and any of the remaining loyal legions. Just about everyone shy of the wolves has third or later founding inheritors. Given the word 'red' they might be decended from the angel winged primarch, and being 'hunters' they might trace ancestory back to Corax. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188429-possible-primarch-for-red-hunters/#findComment-2230187 Share on other sites More sharing options...
morcus Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Forgive me if this is wrong, but I was under the impression it was possible to have genetic data from multiple Primarchs Geneseed because the organs were grown externally, thus implanting organs from multiple sources would mean the Gene seed returned would be a barstardisation of the two. I was under the impression that this was done because sometimes one geneseed would develop failings meaning not everything worked, though I also inferred that they did this just to experiment and see what happens. To be honest I don't really care if this is in anykind of official fluff because I've no idea where I might have read it, It just seems like the kind of thing that would happen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188429-possible-primarch-for-red-hunters/#findComment-2230216 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANCIENT FALOR Posted December 31, 2009 Author Share Posted December 31, 2009 i think ill stick with with imperial fist geneseed. i doubt they use traitor genessed. however i like the specific company being attached to a specific ordo by RED 2. the rest of the chapter could go on about normal duties unless assigned companies needed assistance. so the Red Hunters are sons of dorn. in tradition with the close ties the IF maintains with imperial organisations. i just have to work my fluff of that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188429-possible-primarch-for-red-hunters/#findComment-2230451 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 2 Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 The Lorgar geneseed idea is a bit farfetched I'll admit but the concept that Iacton Cruze and the loyal Deathguard's gene seeds would be used to make a chapter specific to the Inquisition makes perfect sense to me. In "Flight of the Eisenstein" it states "Afterwards, Garro, Qruze and Amendera Kendel were approached by Malcador the Sigillite and told that they would be needed to form the beginnings of an organisation which would utilise "men and women of inquisitive nature, hunters who might seek the witch, the traitor, the mutant, the xenos"." Some people theorized that this meant that they became the first Grey Knights but I think this is highly unlikely because of the nature of the Grey Knights. I think the theories that the Grey Knights are of the Emperors Gene seed makes more sense. However, this doesn't explain exactly what happened to the Lone Luna Wolf and roughly 80 Death Guard. That is two sets of gene seeds and there are two Chapters dedicated to the Inquisition. The Red Hunters and Excorsists. I don't think it's a wild theory to think that with two sets of gene seeds clearly going to the Inquisition and two chapters with unknown origin working specifically for the Inquisition that this is where they came from. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188429-possible-primarch-for-red-hunters/#findComment-2230765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venenum Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Just about anyone who attempts to use the whole 'redeemed traitor seed' idea makes my eyes roll. I've yet to observe a way to do this that didn't make the player look either ignorant or foolish. hmm... what about the 21rst Cursed founding? With all the things that went wrong with that founding (Marines being possessed by daemons, Marines who spontaneously combust, mutant freaks like that black dragons) would it be implausible that there was one experiment during this time using traitor geneseed? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188429-possible-primarch-for-red-hunters/#findComment-2231086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Orlock Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 hmm... what about the 21rst Cursed founding? With all the things that went wrong with that founding (Marines being possessed by daemons, Marines who spontaneously combust, mutant freaks like that black dragons) would it be implausible that there was one experiment during this time using traitor geneseed?Yeah and verily look at me, I alone am the unique and special fool who can latch onto specific parts of the universe and claim them as my own. It's in the same vein as those who start by trying to claim they're marines are inheritors of the expunged ones. It might be closer to the tomfoolery that would be claiming that your chief astropath on your lead battle barge is the one and only brother of Marneous Calgar. It is a far to specific hook into the established canon. Most anything that involves being the one specific example of itself, or relatedly, a specific canon character suffers from this fatal flaw. Being an Ultramarine successor is lovely. Being a later founding experimental successor of Leman Russ could be plausible. Being the one and only secret second founding female surviving secret loyal splinter of the Luna Wolves is deplorably specific. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188429-possible-primarch-for-red-hunters/#findComment-2231842 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 2 Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 When it comes to Garro, Qruze, and the roughly 80 other Death Guard it seems pretty obvious at the end of "Flight of the Eisenstein" that they had something to do with the Inquisition. They could've become the first Inquisitors but Space Marines I think are better off as fighting units rather than individual fighting slueths so to speak. They could've been turned into the Grey Knights but the theory that the Grey Knights are from the Emperor makes much more sense when it comes to thier appearance and Psy gifts. They could have simply gone on a Crussade until they all died but one would think there would be some sort of record for this somewhere. I think the concept that the one Luna Wolf and 80 Death Guard became a new chapter for the Inquisition's use seems like a pretty plausable answer. When it comes to Inquisition chapters I can only think of three. The Grey Knights (as mentioned), the Exorcists (which are decended from the Grey Knights), and the Red Hunters (who have a secret past). As for what gene seed was used it is entirely possible that the gene seed was chosen from a loyal Primarch. In this case it would likely be Dorns since the Imperial Fists fought with the Loyalist Death Guard against Chaos prior to Horus's attack on Terra. The surviving loyalists could've become the Red Hunters first Sergeants or Veteran Company. Or since the gene seed was there from these two legions (Luna Wolves and Death Guard) they could very easily have been used to make the Red Hunters. I realize it is a very specified answer but still plausable. On the subject of traitor legions gene seed...Mars keeps gene seed stock from all the Legions. It seems unlikely in 10,000 years of having the traitor gene seed available that the Tech Priests of Mars would simply lock it up and ignore it and never do anything with it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188429-possible-primarch-for-red-hunters/#findComment-2234291 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Lost Soldier Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 With the advanced psycho surgery, neural biochemical knowledge and psychic abilities of the Imperium, would it be possible to recondition an actual traitor marine (or marines), as opposed to just traitor geneseed? It's an idea that's been kicking around my head for some time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188429-possible-primarch-for-red-hunters/#findComment-2236248 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfGuardVortek Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 I would say it would be possible to do, but unlikely to be bothered with. The Inquistion can mind-scrub people, and I presume it is still possible to do it to a marine, however, it seems like an rather big risk to take if the conditioning failed. Then again the big ][ has members that make daemonhosts, so maybe it isn't that big of a stretch afterall. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188429-possible-primarch-for-red-hunters/#findComment-2236255 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 2 Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 A little off topic but the Blood Ravens are rumored to be of a traiter Primarch's gene seed. The Brotherhood of a Thousand is also rumored to be a the Thousand Sons gene seed. The Exorcists are of the Grey Knights gene seed but part of their initiation process is to be Demonically possessed and then exorcised. Few survive which is one reason they have three scout companies instead of one. Also when looking at the traitor Primarchs some (if not all) seemed completely willing to stay loyal given the right circumstances. *spoiler* Alpharius and Omegon would've stayed loyal if they hadn't spoken to Xenos farseer. The Thousand Sons would've stayed loyal if they hadn't been punished for being Psychers and Sorcerers. The Word Bearers would've stayed loyal if the Emperor hadn't punished them for being religous. and so on. In one of the books a Dark Angels traitor claims that the Lion would've joined Horus if it appeared Horus was going to win. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188429-possible-primarch-for-red-hunters/#findComment-2236565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Orlock Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Also when looking at the traitor Primarchs some (if not all) seemed completely willing to stay loyal given the right circumstances.This sounds like black library apocrypha, and is thus suspect at best. Perversions of the truth fabricated to sell books the gullible. If the Emperor had compromised his principles and the grand atheical plan the word bearers would have remained. Embrace the corruption rather than reject it, never. Regrettably, the word bearers were flawed from the outset, and it was only discovered when the rot reached the outside. @Lost Soldier: The corruption of chaos is fluffed as far more insidious than you're giving it credit. Those malignant warp energies will pervade and infuse the very essence of anything they come in contact with, forever changing them. While you might expunge the mind, at best you'd be left with what would amount to a servitor, at worst, the tainted essence would reassert itself at an inopportune moment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188429-possible-primarch-for-red-hunters/#findComment-2236796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 2 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 I just like the irony of some of the traitor primarchs. The Word Bearers were punished for worshiping the Emperor as a God and now the Imperium worships the Emperor as a God. The Thousand Sons were punished for being psychers and now psychers are embrased. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188429-possible-primarch-for-red-hunters/#findComment-2239393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
- 7eAL - Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 I just like the irony of some of the traitor primarchs. The Word Bearers were punished for worshiping the Emperor as a God and now the Imperium worships the Emperor as a God. The Thousand Sons were punished for being psychers and now psychers are embrased. It means that Chaos is winning. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188429-possible-primarch-for-red-hunters/#findComment-2241325 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 I just like the irony of some of the traitor primarchs. The Word Bearers were punished for worshiping the Emperor as a God and now the Imperium worships the Emperor as a God. The Thousand Sons were punished for being psychers and now psychers are embrased. It means that Chaos is winning. hmm...well look az this quote (from lexicanum) However, another given reason is that, a scant two years before the Horus Heresy began, Alpharius Omegon was contacted by a Xenos organisation known as the Cabal, which presented the primarch with visions of the Heresy to come and other predictions of the future as well as knowledge about the nature of Chaos. They were shown that the only outcomes of the Heresy were that, if the Emperor won, humanity's existence would be ensured for ten or twenty thousand years of decay before they and the galaxy were consumed by Chaos and that, if Horus won, humanity would perish inside two generations, taking the Chaos powers into oblivion with them, thus saving the rest of the galaxy. The Alpha Legion was asked to take on their greatest challenge; to use all their skills of subterfuge, misinformation and sabotage to destroy Chaos from within. Secretly still loyal, they were challenged to defect to the side of Horus and ensure the final destruction of Chaos. Alpharius Omegon appeared to accede to this request, but like nearly all actions of the Alpha Legion, their true motivations are eminently unknowable. it makes you wonder... BBL Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188429-possible-primarch-for-red-hunters/#findComment-2254359 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DinoDoc Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 I just like the irony of some of the traitor primarchs. The Word Bearers were punished for worshiping the Emperor as a God and now the Imperium worships the Emperor as a God. The Thousand Sons were punished for being psychers and now psychers are embrased.The Thousand Sons were punished for sorcery not thier embrace of the psyker and they still would have been forgiven had Leman not unwittingly done the bidding of Chaos and gone beyond the letter of his orders from the Emperor at the urging of Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188429-possible-primarch-for-red-hunters/#findComment-2254713 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 2 Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 My point on the Primarchs is that some of them were probably going to turn no matter what. The World Eaters didn't fit into the Emperors vision very well from the get go. The same is true of the Night Lords. But when it comes to other Legions Horus was extremely loyal to the Emperor. It took a long time and a lot of convincing to get him to turn. Chaos certainly didn't instantly convert him. When you read the first three books of the Heresy it was a slow process with a lot of events that caused it. When it comes to Alpharius it is as was stated above. If the Cabal hadn't talked to them they never would've turned. Even now thier battle cry is still "For the Emperor" (according to the Lex). The Word Bearers Primarch Lorgar wrote the Lectitio Divinatus. The Emperor didn't view himself as a god but Lorgar did. In the aftermath of the heresy so did everyone else. When it comes to the Thousand Sons it is true that they were punished for sorcery but thier behavior could've easily been worked with. Finally when it comes to the Dark Angels they were on the brink of turning to Chaos and according to one traitor the Lion was waiting to see who won to decide on his loyalties. Either way though, I think it would be crazy to think that Mars has gene seeds for all the Primarchs but in 10k years never decided to dabble with any of the traitor Primarchs gene seeds. I also think the 80 Death Guard / 1 Luna wolf theory of the origin of the Red Hunters is completely plausable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188429-possible-primarch-for-red-hunters/#findComment-2254740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 Can anyone tell me where it is written that Lorgar wrote the Lectitio Divinitatus? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188429-possible-primarch-for-red-hunters/#findComment-2255047 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 2 Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 I got that from the Lex. I like the Lex because they tend to site things a lot more than Wiki. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lectitio_Divinitatus It apparently states it in "Scions of the Storm by Anthony Reynolds" but I haven't read the book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188429-possible-primarch-for-red-hunters/#findComment-2255059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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