How much armour is not enough?

[Jaarl Stormfang]

We all know the idea of target saturation, and when armour's involved it's simply taking so many pieces of armour that your opponents anti tank guns are stretched beyond their capabilites. Equally, taking an army exclusively of infantry and other models without an armour value cause some of your opponents weapons like meltas, bright lances and so on to be wasted shooting 15 point models.

 

Taking these two concept into account, taking just one tank in say a 1500pts army would be foolish. A single rhino, faced with an entire army's anti tank guns, is going to get wiped out.

 

Of course it depends on point level, but say around 1500-1800pts, what would you say is the minimum amount of armour you should take before you take any at all? Is one solitary battle tank like an armour 13 pred or vindicator a bad idea? Are 2 razorbacks going to be murdered if there're no other AV targets? What about a drop pod dreadnought, do it's deep strike circumstances change things?

 

Or, is all this rubbish, and there's enough terrain and range issues for each unit to be considered on its individual merit, rather than as part of shooting gallery. Should you not worry about taking a solitary piece of armour in an otherwise armourless list?

 

Cheers

[Oldenhaller]

Hey Jaarl, interesting idea,

 

I think that that it's quite dependent upon who you'll be facing and thus the preponderance of havy weapons which they're liable to bring to bear vs anti-infantry weapons/area saturation(pie plates) which will affect your choices more. If we're looking at an all comers list then I think you have to include other considerations such as how you'll protect your footsloggers as they go across the board. With wolves we've portable cover from our rune priets which will help however I'd always feel naked without a layer of tank between me and my enemy's guns.

 

To that end If I'm running troop transports then it'll be spamming as many of them as I can of the same variety. My mentor's list is all pods, my wolf list currently is all rhino hulls where I've 2 rhino's, a razorback and a vindicator in 1250. Only units on foot are those that are either fast enough to make it over with only 1 turn of fire coming thier way or those which outflank/can take the punishment.

 

~O

[Bulweih]

Hi there, as I did some "low point" games in the last time, here's one of my experiences:

Against IG I put two Vindicators on each flank and let a ven. Dreadnought deepstrike. Results where proving me right about wanting to screw my opponents target saturation by dropping a dread in front of him. It worked out just fine, because before one of those mentioned above got wiped out, my footsloggers crashed into their lines. Without the DP Dread, I think my Vindis wouldn't have gotten far, same for the footslogging Wolves.

[TiguriusX]

I like this question. It has to do with redundancy which is a vital concept in a war game like WH40k.

 

Before I get too far into the subject I want to suggest a complementary tool to an army of AV14. A drop pod to hunt down enemy anti-tank (WG with combi-melta/plasma or a 10 man GH unit). All you need is 1 to reap great benefits

 

I am a strong supporter of doubling up on your "vital" vehicles (vindicator/whirlwind). If your opponent ignores both he will be in a world of pain. If your opponent focuses his long range AV guns on them it increases the odds that one will survive and your transport vehicles may advance unmolested.

 

I am against multiple LR in low point games. They cost too much (1 LR > 2x vindicator/whirlwind) and you won't have any army besides LRs and the cargo inside. Even if your opponent can't destroy your LR you are asking a lot for your LR to earn back its points after it is done transporting cargo.

 

I am strongly in favor of multiple rhinos. I am even an advocate for EA if assaulting is the basic concept of your army.

 

Razorbacks are a special rule because they can get mixed in with your other vehicles so double up if you need one to survive. I usually take 1 as a utility vehicle in addition to rhinos so I don't feel I need to saturate the field with razorback targets.

 

Would love to go on and on but time for work.

[Oldenhaller]

I like the idea of redundency in roles but I feel that it is one which needn't be just a doubling of the same unit. If you have a tank hunting pred and say tank hunting thunderwolves then the two fulfil the same role however through different means. They also ensure that your opponent cannot utilise the same meathod to remove both...eg a brightlance will kill a pred but will only put 1 wound on a thunderwolf.

 

Nice idea with the pod aswell...however againit's identifying what is liable to be your enemy's most concentrated are of AT and neutralising that. This can work so long as it's not too spread out. Conversly it's also a strong option for all infantry armys as large anti-infantry blocks (reapers for instance) are also a key objective before walking across the board.

 

~O

[Dwars]

I am a fan of small games and the tactics that come with small games, in a game of 750 points i like to bring up to 3 razorbacks and a vindicator or a whirlwind. it is a lot for your oponent to think about and gives me a psychological advantage.

I think you have to think about how you want to use your armour in your list;

 

*If you want to carry your troops as fast as possible to an objective, make your oponent shoot at an whirlwind or 2 of you and not at your rhino's and don't use razorbacks because these can be intimidating and a nice target for your opponent.

 

*If your goal is to shoot the living daylight out of him take a few razorbacks and rush in on him with them so they will draw all (most) of the fire.

 

These are just the key thoughts of my strategy's and they work 10 out of 10 time's if you get the hang of it.

My current 750 point army won 22 of it's 22 games and it's saga is still growing in my local gaming group.

[brotherkaelen]

As far as running number to determine what number of hulls you have to field in order to frustrate an enemies anti-tank, you have to know how much anti-tank is in their list; so generally, this isn't going to happen.

 

I think what's going to help you more is figuring out how many/what tanks to field based on your overall army strategy. If you are running a mostly footslogging army than you may loose a single tank by turn two every game. If it keeps your main cc units alive long enough to get into cc then it doesn't really matter. Just keep it cheap.

 

If you're looking for general guidelines, then keep in mind the average 40K anti-tank unit is heavy support, and most armies have between 1 and 3 dedicated anti-tank units. That means that you can expect 0-3 vehicles to go down in a turn (this is a range, actual results tend to be lower).

[Jaarl Stormfang]

Thanks a lot for your responses guys, has given me good food for thought. I understand you can't fine tune it exactly without knowing the enemy army, but I'm looking for a general all comers that you'd take to a tourney. In particular in the context of this 1500pts list:

 

 

Rune Priest - Chooser, living lightning, murerous hurricane

 

10 Grey Hunters - 2 plasma guns, wolf standard

+Wolf Guard Terminator - Cyclone launcher, fist, combi melta

 

8 Grey Hunters - melta, wolf standard, drop pod

+Wolf Guard Terminator - Chainfist, combi melta

 

5 Grey Hunters - melta, Razorback

5 Grey Hunters - flamer, Razorback

3 Wolf Guard Terminators - 3 combi meltas, 1 power fist, drop pod

3+1 Swift Claws - power fist, attack bike

+Wolf Guard biker - power fist

 

6 Long Fangs - 3 Heavy bolters, 2 Missile Launchers

6 Long Fangs - 3 Heavy bolters, 2 Missile Launchers

 

 

It's started out as a footslogger list with a drop pod, then I added a second pod, and 2 small razorback squads. At this point, I'm wondering if the razorbacks are going to get fried very quickly as the only other armour in the list is a couple pods. I was also thinking of adding a vindicator in place of one of the small hunter+razor squads, though of course I'd be losing a razor to do so. I guess it would however mean that any focus on my vindicator will allow the razor to do its thing.

 

Or, in this army, are just two tanks going to bite the dust any way I do it, and I should drop them in favour of something else.. perhaps more bikes, grey hunters, long fangs etc.

[brotherkaelen]

In this case I would suggest thinking bout what the five man hunter squads do. If they are just there to hold objectives and fire off heavy-bolter rounds then they should be ok, you need them for the mobility and people will spend most of their time dealing with the DP stuff.

 

I am having a hard time figuring out your win conditions from your list though. The three termi's in dp seem rather underpowered; am I missing something? If they are just there to pop a tank with the combi-meltas that seems like kind of a waste as they will most likely die immediately afterward.

 

I would seriously suggest looking at your bike squad again though. That is a decent chunk of points that is either an unsupported cc unit or a low powered shooting unit.

[Jaarl Stormfang]

That was the plan with the 5 man hunter squads yeah, to take objectives, or support either of the larger packs with their objectives.

 

The three termies are there to waste a tank and then be a nuisance. 3 terminators that can hide behind a pod are going to take some dedicated firepower to take them down. Which should hopefully give the rest of the army a turns respite. If they get ignored they have a fist and two power weapons to cause some damage.

 

About the bike squad, its really a support combat unit. The heavy bolter attack bike is there because it's only 5pts to add a wound, attack, and heavy bolter. And the WGL is there to allow the claws to shoot. What would you recommend I do, drop the power fist on the swiftclaws perhaps?

 

 

But, for the purpose of this thread, you think the razorbacks will be ok then? What about replacing one with a vindicator?

[Bobman]

I used to use 2 Razors to sit back on objectives and stuff and they were always gold. But I had other vehicles which would assault the enemy and therefore take all the fire power. Pods only get shot at if there are no other targets or they are in the way. I reckon most long range AT weapons will be directed at those Razors, and they don't last under heavy fire. But if they're only sitting and giving fire support will you worry about their loss?

[Oldenhaller]

May razback is a twin las/plas - i roll it forward to behind some cover, drop out the squad and use it for busting heavy infantry and vehicles. As there are two rhinos ful of troops, and a vidicator forward of this it tends to not draw too much fire. Additionally it's the choice between the fangs, the razback and the vindi for armour/heavy infantry busting to choose from when returning fire. Some shots may take out individuals but the redundency is there in multiple targets of both infantry and vehicles.

 

~O

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I advocate none or a lot.

 

At 1500 pts;

 

For my BTs I run a Dread MM HF, Vindi, 3-las-Pred.

 

3 10 man squads Mg PF

2 5 man squads Flamer LC

Marshal

Emperors Champion.

 

The Vindi is the fire magnet. It always gets shot at, alot. This is fine as this allows my other pieces of Armour to do their jobs without being harassed.

Marshal & EC both lead a squad.

The Dread also "leads" a squad and acts like a cc powerhouse in a similar way to my ICs.

 

This leaves the Pred (and 2 other LCs) to poke holes in enemy Armour or MegaNobz, etc.

 

The Vindi is scary and so the Dread gets targeted 2nd. Without the Dread, however, my 3rd 10 man squad would have lower kill-quality (not kill-quantity) to the other 2 squads.

 

The Pred and 2 other LCs start taking out Armour that my 3 squads would struggle with. Sure a Mg and PF is pretty good, but I really want those 3 Killa Kanz out of action long before then.

 

The Dread "leads" a squad, improves their kill-quality, and adds a MM and 2 DCCW attacks against Armour or MegaNobz. For me, him being Amour/"IC" combination is much more useful to my list than taking a Chaplain, for example.

 

So I think I have 3 ICs + 3 Armours + 5 LCs + 4 Meltas + 4 PF. They overlap and become something greater than the some of their parts, IMO.

[TiguriusX]

Or, in this army, are just two tanks going to bite the dust any way I do it, and I should drop them in favour of something else.. perhaps more bikes, grey hunters, long fangs etc.

 

I would not consider razorbacks "tanks"

 

They are well armed transports. With no other armor on the field your razorbacks will be targetted and most likely destroyed in < 2 turns

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Or, in this army, are just two tanks going to bite the dust any way I do it, and I should drop them in favour of something else.. perhaps more bikes, grey hunters, long fangs etc.

 

I would not consider razorbacks "tanks"

 

They are well armed transports. With no other armor on the field your razorbacks will be targetted and most likely destroyed in < 2 turns

 

Yeah I was thinking the same thing. The RB would need to remain hidden, IMO, until the DP come. That would then present the foe with too many things to kill at once.... hopefully.

 

I think your list is okay. The RB waiting until the DP come would be a consideration though. The same thing with the Swift Claws.

 

I like LC. Not more than Meltas but in addition to.

 

I think the 3 Terms could work. They have done a lot of damage the turn they land, if the foe doesn't kill them, they will continue to disrupt his plans.

[Jaarl Stormfang]

Cheers again guys. I've gone through that list and realised I added the points wrong and I've got more than 70pts spare so I'm going to have a bit of a rethink of the list in general. The general consensus seems to be that 2 razors aren't enough armour, and I think I do want to get some real amour in there so I'll do some tinkering and bring it back.

[minigun762]

Of course it depends on point level, but say around 1500-1800pts, what would you say is the minimum amount of armour you should take before you take any at all? Is one solitary battle tank like an armour 13 pred or vindicator a bad idea? Are 2 razorbacks going to be murdered if there're no other AV targets? What about a drop pod dreadnought, do it's deep strike circumstances change things?

 

Well its a question that doesn't get asked much because most Marine armies are mechanized, this means you're looking at anywhere from 2-5 Rhinos/Razorbacks/Pods before anything else is said or done.

 

In a 1k army, I usually field 3 Rhinos + 1 Defiler + Daemon Prince which is the equivalent of 5 pieces of armor.

 

 

However I would be compfortable with roughly 2 pieces of armor per 500 points.

[brotherkaelen]

Sorry I took so long to get back to this thread. What you're talking about makes sense but we're starting from two different baselines as far as tactics are concerned. In my description I may use terms from a tactica article written a while ago in here on the grey knights section. Its called 'way of the water warrior' and if you haven't read this yet I think its a must-read for any tactically minded PA player.

 

When I say win conditions, I'm talking about what your army does better than the other army to ensure victory. If your army is almost entirely cc then your victory conditions are to charge into cc as quick as possible, if long range shooting is your choice then you want to stay back and move around your opponent to bring them down. For mixed armies these can become a lot more complex.

 

When I look at your list, I see two drop-pod units, one footslog unit, two long-range units, and one fast shooter unit. I do not consider the two five man hunter squads because five man squads are too small to do much damage on there own (they are not game changing).

 

Now here's were the problems come in. There are really two main types of marine armies that do well: PA fire army (mech or footslog), And the long distance shooty earth army. A 'PA fire army' wins by fielding more numbers than an opponent can shoot and combat down and either assaulting with full force or maintaining zones of the board where you can amass enough bolter fire to kill just about anything. A 'Earth army' tries to field so many guns and marines that your opponent is a smoking crater before they can kill you.

 

Now, while pods and transports can both get you where you want to go faster, there are some real differences. Namely, the pod is immobile once in and you can not stay inside it. This leads to two problems when mixed with other transports:

 

1. You are forced to either advance your pods to areas far beyond your vehicle-troops or have them spend the rest of the game huffing-it to keep up and...

 

2. Your troops are exposed a small amount at a time to enemy fire. We've all seen the games were a pod or two comes in, just to see the enemy decimate those units before anything can make it up to support them. As much as we love grey hunters, statistically 10-20 simply won't take down an enemy flank in one shooting phase.

 

So that's really what I'm talking about; the list is trying to cover all the bases but simply doesn't present an adequate means to achieving a realistic win-condition in my opinion. If you want to overwhelm people with pods you will need at least 5 so you get three in on turn 1. If you want to kill people with bolter rounds then you need enough marines to do it (probably around 30) and the transports to carry them so that YOU can pick the area that the firefight happens and in what turn.

 

If you want some specific suggestions as to how to make your list perform ace with minimal changes, let me know. In the mean time, see if you can find that tactical article. If you really understand it you won't need anyone else's help building lists again.

[Vassakov]

Well, many of you may remember from my Tournment Batreps a couple of years back, I was a keen advocate of full mech. I remain so, for the simple reason that a fully mech army will overload your enemies target priority and ensure that you can close in on them and let the Grey Hunters do what they do best. 3 Rhinos, a Predator and a Vindicator plus a Dreadnought or 2 in 1500pts will give most enemy forces a real headache and allow you the manoeuvrability to direct the battle.

[Jaarl Stormfang]

Thanks a lot brotherkaelen, that's really given me a good lot to think about. I had a look through the way of the water warrior thread you mentioned. I've never really been into the whole classifications thing.. always thought it was too much of a generalisation for such a varied game, but there are some valuable concepts in there.

 

 

With that in mind, the sort of army I want is a stand back and wait army, with strong static firepower and a couple fast elements to counter attack with speed and power. So that'd be a footslogging firebase of grey hunters, 2 long fangs, a dread or two and a vindicator. Then speedy counter elements like a hunter squad in a rhino/razorback, a bike squad.. perhaps some scouts. Should also be enough armour to survive.

 

I'd maybe keep that 3 terminator drop pod squad, to be my wild card that could disrupt an fire enemy's advance, or cover my advance towards an earth army.

 

Does that make me water? Or just adaptable earth? What do you think of that as an army concept?

[brotherkaelen]

I think that you're getting the idea. I definitely love vindicators for the sit back and shoot approach.

 

If you're going to go footsloggy earth then my suggestion is to go without the razorbacks. This is not because they are a bad unit, but because a six man carrying capacity limits you too much. You really need at least ten, so rhinos are your best bet.

 

The dreads are a good call as long as you remember their purpose; they are not there to do the killing, they are there to engage the assault units that would otherwise kill your hunters, so keep them cheap. Dreads are great for tying up strength 4-5 assault units.

 

As far as your counter units, I would really suggest a harder hitting cc unit. Shooting (like from bikes) does exactly what the rest of your army does and doesn't sway the game much. I would consider adding a couple of wolf guard to your terminator unit and giving them some good weapons, or maybe adding in some thunder wolf calvary as I've been hearing good things about them. The idea here is to counter the scary assault unit the enemy throws at you and make his attack fizzle mid-field, so either could do the trick. I worry about the bikes because although they are fast they are still just a unit of five bolters.