Vertical disembarkation

[ShinyRhino]

So, let's say I have Rhino parked in a ruin, with a tactical squad inside. They're contesting an objective placed on the third level of said ruin by virtue of the tall hull of the Rhino. Perfectly legal, right?

Now let's say the Rhino is Wrecked (not Exploded) on the final turn of a game. My Marines MUST disembark from the wreck, obviously.

If I disembark my Marines on the ground level, they're outside claim/contest range of the objective on the third floor. If I get them up onto the second floor, though, they claim it since the objective is within 3" of the Marines on the second floor.

 

This is the crux of my question, though. When a vehicle is Wrecked, can you disembark vertically up into a ruin, or even onto the elevated section of a hill? All of the diagrams of the disembarakation range show the 2" arc measured on the ground from a vehicle's exits. Is there a "sphere" of exit here, or just the arc?

 

I know an Emergency Disembarkation allows you to get out from any point on the hull. Do I have to seal all the exits of my Rhino with rubble or models to force myself to Emergency Disembark and get the 2" jump to the second floor?

 

Can this also work with a non-Wrecked Rhino? Let's say I have the same Rhino, but want my troops on the second floor instead of the first. If I jump them out on the ground, and them try to roll difficult terrain to get them up there, there's a chance to bork the roll with a 1, and not make it far enough. Can I simply jump them the 2" up onto the second level by measuring from the top edge of the exit hatches? Is disembarkation range limited by vertical space, and/or Difficult Terrain? I knwo disembarkationito Dangerous Terrain triggers Dangerous Terrain tests, but I'm not sure if it triggers Difficult Terrain tests or not.

 

Thanks for any help!

[Ashe Darke]

I'm having trouble picturing a Rhino being within 3 inches of the top floor of a 2 storey building. I assume when you say 3rd floor you mean the 3rd counting the ground as the 1st.

 

Anyway. If you can get all of the units bases within 2 inches of the hatch then the rules say you can. It makes no mention of layer although this is a bit cheesey and might annoy the person you're playing. This is a separate move from your main movement or running so you can't add your double 1 to the 2 to go up a layer.

 

You don't have to roll difficult terrain tests for disembarking into difficult terrain. Just your normal move. You can even park your Rhino's rear up against a wall and deploy the other side provided you follow the rules for disembarking.

 

This is how I've understood the rules anyway.

[gravmania]

americans don't have ground floors, they start at 1st floor. So 3rd would be 2nd in europe..

 

This is a good question and I would allow it, 2" from the hull is 2" from the hull.. Nothing says it has to be horizontal.

[Isiah]

This is the crux of my question, though. When a vehicle is Wrecked, can you disembark vertically up into a ruin,

 

I'd say no because units wanting to move up/down levels must take a difficult terrain test. Emergency disembarking is not a difficult terrain test. And once out remember, they can't do anything else (including move) for that turn.

 

Can this also work with a non-Wrecked Rhino? [...] Can I simply jump them the 2" up onto the second level by measuring from the top edge of the exit hatches?

 

Again I'd say no for the same reason: because units wanting to move up/down levels must take a difficult terrain test and disembarking is not a difficult terrain test. But in this example, there's nothing to stop them disembarking and then (provided the transport hasn't already moved) take their terrain test to see if they can traverse the levels.

 

Cheers

I

[rat of vengence]

I'm with Isiah on this one.

 

RoV

[igotsmeakabob!!]

If that were the case, would you also not allow a unit from Running/Fleeting up a level of ruins?

[Frosty the Pyro]

indeed, you can disembark into difficult terain with no problem, you could disembark up a level if its within your 2 inch disembark range.

[Ashe Darke]

It's just very cheesy.

[rat of vengence]

If that were the case, would you also not allow a unit from Running/Fleeting up a level of ruins?

Why? Running/fleeting doesn't need a difficult terrain test. It has nothing to do with disembarking.

 

indeed, you can disembark into difficult terain with no problem, you could disembark up a level if its within your 2 inch disembark range.

But most levels are considered 3" move. I would have no problem with disembarking ON a higher level, IF the vehicle was actually on that level (LSS for example). Other than that, I think measuring the 2" from the top of the hatch is pushing the boundaries way too far. It isn't as if that's where the marines base is anyway. At best, it is rule manipulation for an advantage.

 

RoV

[Ashe Darke]

If that were the case, would you also not allow a unit from Running/Fleeting up a level of ruins?

Why? Running/fleeting doesn't need a difficult terrain test. It has nothing to do with disembarking.

The point they were trying to make is saying you can't disembark into difficult terrain because you don't take a test doesn't make sense and isn't valid because of those other types of movement. They don't require a test yet allow you to move into/through difficult terrain.

 

They said unit's wanting to go up/down a layer must take a test. If this is true then you can't run/fleet up/down layers which isn't true so the statement 'in order to go up/down a level you must take a difficult terrain test' can't be true which, was part of the argument for why you can't disembark vertically.

 

It's technically allowed as far as I've read the rules but the player should be bludgeoned with the tank they're trying to disembark from if they try and pull it. The rulebook should say from the bottom of the hatch because unless they're Lionel Richie they're not walking on the ceiling.

[rat of vengence]

It's technically allowed as far as I've read the rules but the player should be bludgeoned with the tank they're trying to disembark from if they try and pull it. The rulebook should say from the bottom of the hatch because unless they're Lionel Richie they're not walking on the ceiling.

Nice call that. :cuss

 

RoV

[Morticon]

This would also exclude disembarking into difficult terrain if you follow that logic!

[Freakiq]

If you can measure from the hatch and it's 2" or less to the floor they are deploying onto I'd say it's fair game.

[Isiah]

This would also exclude disembarking into difficult terrain if you follow that logic!

Disembarking into difficult terrain is allowed yes. However that doesn't necessarily mean you can break a different specific rule for moving up or down levels without testing. And interestingly, a unit that does disembark into difficult terrain is still required to take a terrain test to move through or out of it – so it doesn't get off scot-free :).

 

They said unit's wanting to go up/down a layer must take a test. If this is true then you can't run/fleet up/down layers which isn't true so the statement 'in order to go up/down a level you must take a difficult terrain test' can't be true which, was part of the argument for why you can't disembark vertically.

Just because Run doesn't require a test doesn't necessarily form a precedent for disembarking as far as I'm aware. They are two completely separate rules.

 

Interesting discussion.

[Ashe Darke]

Yes but the argument 'you can't disembark up/down a layer because you don't take a test' doesn't make sense unless you're only talking about normal moves and I wouldn't consider disembarking a normal move. The only thing that I can think of is that it's a move in movement phase while the others are in the shooting phase. But nowhere does it mention having to take a test for disembarking in difficult terrain so why would you start restricting it now especially as the restriction makes no sense? The only criteria for going up a layer is you need at least 3 inches of movement assuming you're on the ground when you start. Seen as you're not, you're in a vehicle this is where I believe your issue starts. It doesn't state they have to get out on the ground when they get out, just within 2 inches of the hatch. If it did then yes you wouldn't be able to do it.

 

Two changes to the rules could fix this. One stating that you must be on the ground/layer before you can move up or down a layer i.e. bases on the floor, not in a vehicle. The other stating that disembarking is measured from the base of the hatch.

[ShinyRhino]

Interesting discussions, all.

In rereading the relevant rules over the weekend (Ruins, Run!, Difficult Terrain tests, Disembarking), it looks like it could be valid, but would indeed be stretching the spirit of the rule to it's cheddariest. While the rules don't seem to explicitly disallow it (due to oversights that Ashe Darke has already pointed out for us), it would be one of those cheezy moves that would get you a hit on your Sportsmanship score.

 

Now, if it's an Emergency Disembark move, it's a little different. That rule states you can disembark from any point on the vehicle's hull, so by that reading, you could leap from the top of a Rhino onto the second story (US-version of second story includes the ground floor as first floor :)). Or consider that the model is "thrown" up there from the blast or something. /shrug.

[Ashe Darke]

I did actually do this today for a laugh. I was storming a ruin with a tactical squad in it and there was a balcony on the wall where my Raider pulled up so I placed a guy on it. It was a silly game and the guy had like 20 termies, 5 TH/SS termies and Lysander so I thought I'd be cheesy as well. Turns out I didn't need him there as I got the charge easily.

[avatar8481]

While the rules don't seem to explicitly disallow it (due to oversights that Ashe Darke has already pointed out for us)

 

Rules should strive to have as few oversights as possible, a standard GW either ignores or doesn't understand given that they make no effort to resolve them.

[Frosty the Pyro]

I dont even know if its that far out of the spirit of the rules. Marines and eldar jump good, guard have standard issue brass balls and likely just grab the top of the tank and heft themselves up (remember chuck norris is your standard guardsman), orks would have ejection seats to get em to the fight fasta'. non-kroot Tau are the only group I can think of that would actualy have dificulty doing that, and all thier tranports hover so they could just add a little extra umph to the anti grav and have the bottom of the transport level with the ruins.

[nighthawks]

While the rules don't seem to explicitly disallow it (due to oversights that Ashe Darke has already pointed out for us)

 

Rules should strive to have as few oversights as possible, a standard GW either ignores or doesn't understand given that they make no effort to resolve them.

 

lets try not to get too cynical. GW certainly has their share of rules loopholes, and have a track record of not resolving them, but their stance is that the right way is the way that makes sense to you. if you think it makes sense to allow disembarking troops to move to the second floor (US reading) than play that way, it certainly could be done per RAW though not according to the explanatory diagrams which are all 2D overhead.

 

The point is that there really is no "right" answer. in a tournament you will need a ruling if you or your opponent disagree on such things. that's just how it is. An event this rare is hardly worth the attention of an FAQ.

[Freakiq]

I dont even know if its that far out of the spirit of the rules. Marines and eldar jump good, guard have standard issue brass balls and likely just grab the top of the tank and heft themselves up (remember chuck norris is your standard guardsman), orks would have ejection seats to get em to the fight fasta'. non-kroot Tau are the only group I can think of that would actualy have dificulty doing that, and all thier tranports hover so they could just add a little extra umph to the anti grav and have the bottom of the transport level with the ruins.

 

Rhinos even have top hatches and ladders on the side doors so it wouldn't be hard to imagine a Space Marine using to body of the Rhino to get to the second floor.

[Isiah]

Rhinos even have top hatches and ladders on the side doors so it wouldn't be hard to imagine a Space Marine using to body of the Rhino to get to the second floor.

 

Agreed but is it allowed in the rules :)

[Freakiq]

Rhinos even have top hatches and ladders on the side doors so it wouldn't be hard to imagine a Space Marine using to body of the Rhino to get to the second floor.

 

Agreed but is it allowed in the rules :D

 

My reply was regarding whether it was so unrealistic as to be against the spirit of the rules.

 

As far as I can see the rules seem to allow any disembarkation within 2" as it isn't a rule against it.

 

From what I've read disallowing units to disembark onto a higher floor would be the equivalent of disallowing a unit from running up a floor.

 

The rules say you can move 2" and doesn't doesn't disallow vertical movement, I'd say it's allowed.

[ShinyRhino]

This question/answer combo from the new Space Wolves FAQ seems to set a precedence for being able to move up a level (emphasis mine)...

 

Q. The description of the Rune Priest psychic

power Tempest’s Wrath states that some units

within of 24" of the Rune Priest treat all terrain

as difficult and dangerous terrain. According to

the rulebook, disembarking is not subject to

difficult and dangerous terrain effects. So can

we assume a unit disembarking from a transport

vehicle into cover whilst within of 24" of the

Rune Priest wouldn’t have to take a test for

dangerous terrain?

A. Correct, but remember that the Tempest’s

Wrath may affect them later that turn."

 

 

Disembarking ISN'T affected by difficult/dangerous, apparently. Now it's just a matter of where one can conceivably measure from.