Chooser

[Frontline989]

Does the rules for Chooser of the Slain apply to units attempting to outflank or only those infiltrating? Meaning does it prevent them from comming in off the table edge "18 from the model?

[AdeptusDavidus]

"Enemy units may not use their Infiltrate rule to deploy within 18" of a Chooser marker."

 

I suppose you could try to argue that it blocks outflanking, though it would only block outflanking by units who are able to outflank because they have the Infiltrate rule (so it wouldn't block a Rhino full of Tactical Marines from outflanking if you were facing a Kor'sarro Khan list).

 

I would say, though, that it does not inhibit outflankers.

[JamesI]

I'm pretty sure it only blocks infiltration, not outflanking.

[Gentlemanloser]

though it would only block outflanking by units who are able to outflank because they have the Infiltrate rule

 

That's the counter arguement though.

 

They are using Infiltrate to deploy via outflanking, which the Chooser won't allow. It removes thier ability to infiltrate, which would therefore remove thier ability to deploy via outflanking.

 

Personally, I'd rule it would only stop infiltration, and not outflanking, but that's my own RAI. :D RAW, it seems you can't outflank within the radius of a Chooser, if you gained outflanking via Infiltrate.

 

Come on with that FAQ already, and let's hope is an itelligent one, that focuses on issues like these, and not trivial stuff...

[Grey Mage]

Id say its just stopping infiltration, not outflanking... but I suppose you could argue that itll keep them from using outflank derived from the infiltrate special rule within 18" of the chooser... but that wouldnt stop them from deploying with it elsewhere on the board.

[nurglespuss]

yeah id say thats fair, it stops outflanking derived from infiltration, within the 18" radius

[Stormbrow II]

It doesn't affect it (outflanking) because its a different rule to infiltrating. The Chooser only affects units that are infiltrating.

[AdeptusDavidus]

It doesn't affect it (outflanking) because its a different rule to infiltrating. The Chooser only affects units that are infiltrating.

 

The problem here is that "outflank" is not a special rule, it's just a manuever that only certain types of units are capable of doing. As far as I can tell, there is no "infiltrate" special manuever - their special pre-game setup rule isn't "infiltrating", per se, it's just "deploying", with the extra caveats that the Infiltrate rule brings into play.

 

The Infiltrate enables units with that rule to perform the "outflank" manuever, so the argument is that a unit with Infiltrate that is outflanking is "using their Infiltrate rule to deploy", because coming in from reserves is termed a "deploying", and the unit is deploying in a specific way that it is only capable of because it possesses the Infiltrate rule.

 

While I'm sure this is not the intention, I believe it is in fact what the rules as written actually say.

[stinkenheim]

without sounding rude, you know as well as i do that when it says 'Infiltrate' it meant people infiltrating forwards into better postions and NOT people outflanking.

 

as much as you can argue that they are infiltrating when using outflank, they aren't. Without having the BRB on me it says something along the lines of units with infiltrate may deploy using a special outflank move. it also says the same thing under the 'scout' special rule. Its pretty obvious that outflank is a special option given to units who are able to work themselves into better postions and whilst being connected to the scout/infiltrate special rule they are not actually the same thing.

 

i would have real problems with someone trying to use it in such a way against me as i think it is cheesy in the extreme.

 

(when i get my hands on my rulebook i will quote the rules/read them again to make sure that i have read it right)

[AdeptusDavidus]

Like I've said every time I've posted in this thread, I completely agree that the Chooser is not intended to block outflankers.

 

I'm just presenting the alleged-RAW argument that could be used to back the other side of the discussion.

[nurglespuss]

I support the chooser blocking outflanking via infiltration for the reasons stated previously. Its not 'cheesy' and makes sense.

[Frontline989]

I didn't care one way or the other but like some have said though it doesnt state it explicitly it does make sense that it would block outflanking. I would think my little birdie flying around would see enemies trying to sneak up behind me. :)

[little brother]

I think it is a little silly to infer that the chooser can hinder outflankers. Imagine the following situation.

 

Unit A attempts to outflank because they have the infiltrate rule but are blocked by the chooser.

 

Unit B (coming on from the same point on the board edge as unit A) outflanks because they have the scout rule and are unaffected.

 

How are you going to justify that?

 

Lets not let this turn into a rant against GW for not creating cast iron, water tight, waterproof rules.

[Grey Mage]

One does it by being sneaky, and is detected.

 

The other does it by being fast, and cant be stopped by a servitor-bird.

 

Anything more concrete?

[MaveriK]

when it says 'Infiltrate' it meant people infiltrating forwards into better postions and NOT people outflanking.

 

Agreed! I go with what's written, and not what people assume nor attach onto words that is already defined and written as is. Those two different words mean two different things, in which their actions equal and appear similar, to one side of the coin, but in truth are still different in the end. If the rule indicated that it included outflanking, then it would have simply said so. Don't abuse words, by adding onto it without just or merit. It ruins the game, winning isn't everything, its having fun. There's a difference with trying to clarify a rule, while educating yourself, and there's a difference with arguing about a rule just to get into an argument about the rule *passive-aggressive* It all goes down to their definition: Infiltrating has one definition, Outflanking has another. The Chooser's rules say which?

[Godhead]

The problem is that no unit in the game has the "OUTFLANK" rule. It either has scouts or infiltrate, which by virtue of one of these two rules allows a unit to arrive from reserves on table edges. This ability is not normally available to other units without these special rules. Personally I think it does block it as outflank is gained from the infiltrate rule, but I'd discuss it with my gaming group and come to a decision and play it that way until/there is further clarification.

[Sarapham]

Well one way of looking at it is that the Chooser does in no way remove the Infiltrate USR from the unit it is affecting, and instead simply is just not allowing the unit to use the effect of it.

 

While you can see outflanking as a direct effect of infiltrate I believe it does not cancel it out as it is a separate effect from the pure business of Infiltrating, and as Grey Mage pointed out one can see some logic behind how the Chooser would work as a spotter, and how that could cancel sneaking about and not major flanking operations.

[Ullr Direfang]

The problem is that no unit in the game has the "OUTFLANK" rule. It either has scouts or infiltrate, which by virtue of one of these two rules allows a unit to arrive from reserves on table edges. This ability is not normally available to other units without these special rules. Personally I think it does block it as outflank is gained from the infiltrate rule, but I'd discuss it with my gaming group and come to a decision and play it that way until/there is further clarification.

 

 

Ummm.... there is a Imperial Guard upgrade character, Al'harm( or how ever you spell it) that has "Outflank", though i suppose it is probably tied into his rules some how (i don't have my IG codex on hand right now).

[AdeptusDavidus]

Ummm.... there is a Imperial Guard upgrade character, Al'harm( or how ever you spell it) that has "Outflank", though i suppose it is probably tied into his rules some how (i don't have my IG codex on hand right now).

 

Al'Rahem's "Stalk the Enemy" special rule simply dictates that any unit that is part of his Infantry Platoon "must outflank". Presumably, it also enables them to do so, not unlike how Kor'sarro Khan enables dedicated transports to outflank. He does not, however, have "Outflank" as a special rule. I'm pretty confident that nobody does, since Outflank isn't a special rule, just a manuever that units with certain special rules can perform.

[Valerian]

"Enemy units may not use their Infiltrate rule to deploy within 18" of a Chooser marker."

 

I would say, though, that it does not inhibit outflankers.

 

Deploying on the table at the beginning of the game using the Infiltrate USR is not the same as arriving from Reserves onto one of the side table edges via an Outflank Move (even if that move was gained because the unit has the Infiltrate USR). So the answer is clearly "No", the Chooser of the Slain does not stop enemy Outflanking units from entering the board nearby.

 

Valerian

[SamaNagol]

Deploying is not entering from reserve.

 

You deploy in reserve, and then enter from reserve at a later time. You only deploy at the start of the game.

[AdeptusDavidus]

Deploying is not entering from reserve.

 

You deploy in reserve, and then enter from reserve at a later time. You only deploy at the start of the game.

 

Initially, that's what I assumed, but I double-checked the rules.

 

The rules talk about deploying versus being kept in reserve as though they are incompatible: "players may choose not to deploy [...] units in their army and instead leave them in reserve". Deployment takes place when a unit comes onto the table, whether that's at the beginning of the game or coming in from reserves - in the Rolling for Reserves section, you'll note that it speaks of rolling for all of your reserves, then "deploying" the units that are going to come onboard.

 

In other words, coming in from reserve explicitly is deploying.

 

To reiterate, though: I do not believe that the Chooser of the Slain is intended to hinder opponents from outflanking - especially since that could be a little clumsy; you're supposed to declare at the beginning of the game if a given reserve unit is going to outflank (or deep strike), and you're expressly forbidden from changing that decision.

 

Obviously, this being a game of humans, we can all choose to wield the rules as we and those we play with see fit. I don't think it's a horrible idea to be familiar, though, with the "letter of the law", as t'were, if only to ease the process of settling on an interpretation with your group.

[rodgambit]

I definitely see how the rule can go both ways and I tend to favor RAW because RAI leave too much open for debate. Chooser is placed at the beginning of the game before the enemy has deployed, so your opponent would know the risk involved. If you bring 4 rune priest and effectively block both right and left table edges from outflanking then your opponent would be wise to not outflank, but he would be made aware of this from the beginning.

 

I also think people are getting confused about "outflank". Outflank is a special move granted by the skills scout and infiltrate and chooser clearly states that an opponent may not use his infiltrate rule to deploy within 18" of a chooser marker. If you can't use your infiltrate rule, then you don't have access to outflank, unless you have the scout rule, in which case you could outflank as normal.

[Valerian]

I also think people are getting confused about "outflank". Outflank is a special move granted by the skills scout and infiltrate and chooser clearly states that an opponent may not use his infiltrate rule to deploy within 18" of a chooser marker. If you can't use your infiltrate rule, then you don't have access to outflank, unless you have the scout rule, in which case you could outflank as normal.

 

Rod, you are making too much of an assumption when you state that "if you can't use your Infiltrate rule, then you don't have access to outflank..." The Chooser does not remove a unit's Infiltrate rule, it simply prevents a unit from using Infiltrate/u] to deploy within 18". Everyone knows exactly what this entails, as the rules for using Infiltrate to deploy a unit outside of its own deployment zone is clearly described in the rulebook, (placing Infiltrating units after all other units from both sides have been deployed, but before Scout Moves have been made; if there are no enemy units with LOS, then they have to be placed at least 12" away, if they are within LOS, then at least 18" away). The Chooser of the Slain marker, then, acts exactly like a unit with automatic LOS to any potential Infiltrators.

 

Edited to add: the Outflank Move is its own special rule; it says so on pg 94 under "Mission Special Rules". The unit gains the ability to execute the Outflank Move because of its own Infiltrate (or Scout) USR, but the Outflank Move is not itself "deployment by Infiltration".

 

The enemy unit still has their Infiltrate rule, still has their ability to conduct an Outflank Move, and can enter the table from Reserves whenever their Reserve Roll is successful. There is nothing in the rule for the Chooser of the Slain to prevent them from moving onto the table, whether you also call this deploying or not, close to the Chooser marker.

 

V

[KeithGatchalian]

Just to point something out.....

 

Under the old Space Wolf rules, everywhere I played and every arguement I saw online with the old chooser of the slain disallowed outflanking if the SW player made the appropriate roll. The interpetation of the outflank ability coming from the Infiltrate skill meant that if you could not Infiltrate, you could not outflank.

 

RAW, Chooser blocks any deployment via the use of the Infiltrate skill. Outflanking granted by the Infilitrate skill would fall under this.

 

Rehashing RAI arguments is pointless.