kickingbird Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Hey guys, im thinking of fielding a wolf priest with saga of the hunter and adding him to a large tooled up unit of scouts. I read in the faq that he carnt go behind enemy lines with them but he does have outflank. Is it the same rule or does outflank have its own specific rule in the codex? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188525-saga-of-the-hunter-and-outflanking/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Outflank has its own specific rule in the deployment section of the BRB, around pg. 90. My gaming group says that since its a special version of outflank, the character can accompany them, but thats a generous enterpretation until the FAQ comes out. RAW theres nothing to say that he has to get the benefits of the scouts OBEL rules... so most tournaments would probly make you use the standard outflank rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188525-saga-of-the-hunter-and-outflanking/#findComment-2230776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglespuss Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 An independent character wouldn't get the units OBEL rule, however, as Grey Mage says its up to you and your opponents Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188525-saga-of-the-hunter-and-outflanking/#findComment-2231536 Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlbitz Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 However, the Wolfscouts also have infiltrate, which gives them standard outflank. You can without question attach an IC with Saga of the Hunter to your Wolfscouts and declare they are outflanking, and not using OBEL. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188525-saga-of-the-hunter-and-outflanking/#findComment-2231651 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 But bitz- OBEL isnt what gives them outflank... OBEL changes the chart for the die you roll on outflank. Thats why my group lets me use it actually... they figure its no better/worse than say an astropath or an Autarch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188525-saga-of-the-hunter-and-outflanking/#findComment-2231661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woulfeheart Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 The Behind Enemy Lines rule says that when the Wolf Scout UNIT makes use of it's outflanking ability, then the rule takes effect. An independent character with Saga of the Hunter has outflank, and can be attached to the Wolf Scouts in reserve. He's part of the Wolf Scout unit, and he has the Outflank rule. Insofar as I can tell, that's RAW-hide. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188525-saga-of-the-hunter-and-outflanking/#findComment-2231725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 He's part of the Wolf Scout unit No, he's not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188525-saga-of-the-hunter-and-outflanking/#findComment-2231785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastrchief33 Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 He's still an IC, so when it refers to unit it doesn't include him. That said, both the WP and the scouts have outflank and OBEL just changes the chart. My local gaming area allows it as well but some don't agree. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188525-saga-of-the-hunter-and-outflanking/#findComment-2231810 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 He's still an IC, so when it refers to unit it doesn't include him. That said, both the WP and the scouts have outflank and OBEL just changes the chart. My local gaming area allows it as well but some don't agree. If this gets FAQed and it turns out that an attached IC with Saga of the Hunter can join the Wolf Scouts and operate Behind Enemy Lines with them then I would be a happy camper indeed. V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188525-saga-of-the-hunter-and-outflanking/#findComment-2232138 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastrchief33 Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Not that this matters as far as rulings go, but its my thinking that the idea behind giving this saga to a WP is for this reason. Unlike the WGBL you can't give him a TWM, so there really would be no point to the saga if he couldn't OBEL with the scouts. I mean, is anyone going to run a footslogging WP solo via outflank? Unlikely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188525-saga-of-the-hunter-and-outflanking/#findComment-2232344 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 You cant give a WGBL a TWM and this Saga- infantry only. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188525-saga-of-the-hunter-and-outflanking/#findComment-2232454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastrchief33 Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 It says you can only take it on a guy in power armour without a bike or a pack. If you take a TWM and you don't take runic armor, you're still in power armor. Thats why the bike and the jump are named specifically. Changing the unit type doesn't change your armor. How do you come to the conclusion that it is infantry only? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188525-saga-of-the-hunter-and-outflanking/#findComment-2232653 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Saga of the HunterInfantry only. Some heroes are famed.... pg.64, of the english codex anyways. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188525-saga-of-the-hunter-and-outflanking/#findComment-2232662 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodgambit Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Under the TWM entry it states that it changes the person to "cavalry" and under the SotH entry it states "Infantry Only". That is why you can't take the saga with a TWM. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188525-saga-of-the-hunter-and-outflanking/#findComment-2232668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastrchief33 Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Ah I see, well then I guess sending them with scouts is really the only option. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188525-saga-of-the-hunter-and-outflanking/#findComment-2232671 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodgambit Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 I just re-read the dex and the FAQ's for the rule book and I would say that a model with SotH can NOT OBEL with the scouts. The rule book states (p. 74), "The special rules marked with an asterisk (*) are automatically lost by an IC joining a unit that does not have the same special rule. These rules are also lost by a unit that is joined by an IC that does not have the same special rule." Saga of the Hunter grants the special rule: Outflank and Stealth. (Note here that it does not grant scout or infiltrate) Scouts rules: Infilitrate, Move through Cover, Scout. (All 3 are marked by an (*)). So as per RAW, when the IC joined the scout unit in reserves, the scouts would lose all 3 of their special rules and therefore would not be able to outflank, since outflank is a sub-rule of Infiltrate and Scout. If the codex had given Saga of the Hunter, scout or infiltrate, instead of "outflank" then I would say it could have worked, but otherwise it does not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188525-saga-of-the-hunter-and-outflanking/#findComment-2232718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rahl02 Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 I just re-read the dex and the FAQ's for the rule book and I would say that a model with SotH can NOT OBEL with the scouts. The rule book states (p. 74), "The special rules marked with an asterisk (*) are automatically lost by an IC joining a unit that does not have the same special rule. These rules are also lost by a unit that is joined by an IC that does not have the same special rule." Saga of the Hunter grants the special rule: Outflank and Stealth. (Note here that it does not grant scout or infiltrate) Scouts rules: Infilitrate, Move through Cover, Scout. (All 3 are marked by an (*)). So as per RAW, when the IC joined the scout unit in reserves, the scouts would lose all 3 of their special rules and therefore would not be able to outflank, since outflank is a sub-rule of Infiltrate and Scout. If the codex had given Saga of the Hunter, scout or infiltrate, instead of "outflank" then I would say it could have worked, but otherwise it does not. There's a small issue with that. Outflank is it's own special rule for missions. It's not a sub rule at all. "During Deployment, players may declare that units with the scout, or infiltrate special rules are attempting to outflank the enemy." By no means does that say that it's part of it. The outflank rule is just stating which units may use this particular rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188525-saga-of-the-hunter-and-outflanking/#findComment-2233094 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodgambit Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 Wolf scouts gain the outflank ability because they have scout and infiltrate, but when the WGBL with saga of the hunter joins the unit and does not have those 2 "skills" then the scouts lose those abilities while he's attached, therefore, they no longer have outflank. Outflank is not its own special rule. It's something you gain if you have the special rule infiltrate or scout and since they will lose those 2 rules then they would lose the ability to outflank. Believe me, I hope they FAQ it and allow it, but as per the RAW it wouldn't fly atm. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188525-saga-of-the-hunter-and-outflanking/#findComment-2233099 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 Wolf scouts gain the outflank ability because they have scout and infiltrate, but when the WGBL with saga of the hunter joins the unit and does not have those 2 "skills" then the scouts lose those abilities while he's attached, therefore, they no longer have outflank. Outflank is not its own special rule. It's something you gain if you have the special rule infiltrate or scout and since they will lose those 2 rules then they would lose the ability to outflank. Believe me, I hope they FAQ it and allow it, but as per the RAW it wouldn't fly atm. You are absolutely correct, and now I have to change one of my positions. I used to believe that a Saga of the Hunter hero could not join the Wolf Scouts and operate Behind Enemy Lines (still true), but claimed that the hero could probably join the Scouts and they'd both get to deploy via the standard Outflank chart. However, upon further review, based upon the above quotes from the rulebook; if an Independent Character without either Scout or Infiltrate (which a Saga of the Hunter Wolf Priest or Battle Leader still doesn't have) attaches to a unit with Scout/Infiltrate, then they lose these USR's. So, the Wolf Scouts would lose their ability to Outflank (both the conventional Outflank Move and the Behind Enemy Lines special variation), because they would no longer be considered to have either the Scout and/or Infiltrate rule, since the attached IC takes it away from them. Thanks GW designers. Time for an errata now - FAQ won't be good enough. V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188525-saga-of-the-hunter-and-outflanking/#findComment-2233352 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 The Space Wolf codex is a fantastic book in theory. But the wording is ABSOLUTELY ATROCIOUS. / I find it ironic that in the 'Yes the truth hurts' blog the author has given Saga Of The Hunter to WGBL on a TWM. Supreme Irony. Someone should inform him of 'the truth'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188525-saga-of-the-hunter-and-outflanking/#findComment-2233355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 The Space Wolf codex is a fantastic book in theory. But the wording is ABSOLUTELY ATROCIOUS. / I find it ironic that in the 'Yes the truth hurts' blog the author has given Saga Of The Hunter to WGBL on a TWM. Supreme Irony. Someone should inform him of 'the truth'. What is the "Yes the truth hurts" blog? Something produced by a GW guy? V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188525-saga-of-the-hunter-and-outflanking/#findComment-2233357 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 A rather self righteous blog about maximising army lists and such. www.yesthetruthhurts.com Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188525-saga-of-the-hunter-and-outflanking/#findComment-2233361 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinkenheim Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 by rights then if you take SOTH and attach them to a unit of scouts in reserve that you have declared are outflanking (as you have to as per the rules for reserves) you then wouldn't be able to bring them on as you can't change your mind once the decision has been made... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188525-saga-of-the-hunter-and-outflanking/#findComment-2233435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rahl02 Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 Wolf scouts gain the outflank ability because they have scout and infiltrate, but when the WGBL with saga of the hunter joins the unit and does not have those 2 "skills" then the scouts lose those abilities while he's attached, therefore, they no longer have outflank. Outflank is not its own special rule. It's something you gain if you have the special rule infiltrate or scout and since they will lose those 2 rules then they would lose the ability to outflank. Believe me, I hope they FAQ it and allow it, but as per the RAW it wouldn't fly atm. You are absolutely correct, and now I have to change one of my positions. I used to believe that a Saga of the Hunter hero could not join the Wolf Scouts and operate Behind Enemy Lines (still true), but claimed that the hero could probably join the Scouts and they'd both get to deploy via the standard Outflank chart. However, upon further review, based upon the above quotes from the rulebook; if an Independent Character without either Scout or Infiltrate (which a Saga of the Hunter Wolf Priest or Battle Leader still doesn't have) attaches to a unit with Scout/Infiltrate, then they lose these USR's. So, the Wolf Scouts would lose their ability to Outflank (both the conventional Outflank Move and the Behind Enemy Lines special variation), because they would no longer be considered to have either the Scout and/or Infiltrate rule, since the attached IC takes it away from them. Thanks GW designers. Time for an errata now - FAQ won't be good enough. V Actually the outflank is a special rule, it actually says so on pg 94 under "Mission Special Rules". If it wasn't its own special rule then the saga would have just given the Battle Leader Scout and Infiltrate, rather than Outflank. A special rule that must be declared during deployment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188525-saga-of-the-hunter-and-outflanking/#findComment-2233446 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodgambit Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 Wolf scouts gain the outflank ability because they have scout and infiltrate, but when the WGBL with saga of the hunter joins the unit and does not have those 2 "skills" then the scouts lose those abilities while he's attached, therefore, they no longer have outflank. Outflank is not its own special rule. It's something you gain if you have the special rule infiltrate or scout and since they will lose those 2 rules then they would lose the ability to outflank. Believe me, I hope they FAQ it and allow it, but as per the RAW it wouldn't fly atm. You are absolutely correct, and now I have to change one of my positions. I used to believe that a Saga of the Hunter hero could not join the Wolf Scouts and operate Behind Enemy Lines (still true), but claimed that the hero could probably join the Scouts and they'd both get to deploy via the standard Outflank chart. However, upon further review, based upon the above quotes from the rulebook; if an Independent Character without either Scout or Infiltrate (which a Saga of the Hunter Wolf Priest or Battle Leader still doesn't have) attaches to a unit with Scout/Infiltrate, then they lose these USR's. So, the Wolf Scouts would lose their ability to Outflank (both the conventional Outflank Move and the Behind Enemy Lines special variation), because they would no longer be considered to have either the Scout and/or Infiltrate rule, since the attached IC takes it away from them. Thanks GW designers. Time for an errata now - FAQ won't be good enough. V Actually the outflank is a special rule, it actually says so on pg 94 under "Mission Special Rules". If it wasn't its own special rule then the saga would have just given the Battle Leader Scout and Infiltrate, rather than Outflank. A special rule that must be declared during deployment. I looked at that also, but the issue is the fact that the IC does not share the same universal special rules as the scouts and since infiltrate, scout and move through cover all have an (*) they would end up losing all 3 of those abilities and their ability to outflank would then be lost also. Even if you want to argue that outflank is a "mission special rule" where it is listed, it still would not change the fact that it isn't a "universal special rule" and that is why it doesn't work. If I was looking at this from a RAI point of view I would completely agree that the Saga was meant to be used to attach to scouts, but until an FAQ comes out we just have to use the rules as written, not as we wish they were. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188525-saga-of-the-hunter-and-outflanking/#findComment-2233464 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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