Black Legion size (spoilers inside)

[minigun762]

So I was reading the first 50 pages of the Dark Creed book and some interesting information came up.

 

Spoilers!

 

 

So combined the 5 Dark Apostles are said to have approximately 9000 Marines under their control. This isn't the entire Legion but its significant.

However in discussion with the Black Legion Sorcerer, Marduk mentions that the Black Legion outnumbers the Word Bearers by about 10-1.

This means that at the minimum, the Black Legion is fielding almost 90,000 Marines.

 

Thats alot considering that the Legion was supposed to be severly damaged after the Horus Heresy when everyone fled to the Eye of Terror. I would have expected the Black Legion to have been much smaller but this means that they must pull in the majority of new recruits and renegades.

 

[Drudge Dreadnought]

That makes sense to me actually. The Black Legion would be joined by lots of renegades and lots of other legion's marines. And since they are not fragmented like the cult legions and are still crusading would probably have a very large recruitment program. They'd be making new marines as fast as possible.

[UltimateJake]

Feth's sake! That's a lot of marines. Well that means their are more to kill.

 

So I assume this would mean they recruit heavily, take in traitors from chapters, and all that good stuff. 90,000 marines and they still haven't managed to take Cadia.

[Atheist]

Well , time works for us , there's no need to rush .

 

We're like the guys at the Jack Daniels commercial .

 

It's good to live in the Eye of Terror .

 

It's beyond certain that we will prevail , at least , we will outlive the Imperials .

 

Let Abaddon grow his armies .

[minigun762]

I wonder if its because of the more difused nature of the Legion that they're better able to recruit new renegades or they actively go out and build their army much more aggressively then other Legions. Being fleet-based might be a reason for this, in addition to Abaddon being the only "active" leadership in the Eye at the time. People rally to power. Maybe if the Primarchs got off their daemonic asses, they could take their rightful place at the head of a successful Black Crusade.

[Sovereign]

90k Black Legion isn't bad, and is about right considering how serious a Black Crusade is supposed to be.

 

It's still about 1/10 of the nominal Loyalist force count.

[minigun762]

90k Black Legion isn't bad, and is about right considering how serious a Black Crusade is supposed to be.

 

It's still about 1/10 of the nominal Loyalist force count.

 

 

Well 90k is the absolute minimum. It could easily be 2x-10x times that amount.

 

That 90k comes from the comparison of 5 Dark Apostles. Considering that only 1 of those Dark Apostles are on the Council, that leaves at least 7 other incredibly powerful Dark Apostle's with their own Host.

[Possessed Marine]

Feth's sake! That's a lot of marines. Well that means their are more to kill.

 

So I assume this would mean they recruit heavily, take in traitors from chapters, and all that good stuff. 90,000 marines and they still haven't managed to take Cadia.

and of course marines from other chaos legions often pledge themselves to the warmaster, which helps the recruitment process, also go's to say that there probably are some WB's in the BL

[UltimateJake]

90k Black Legion isn't bad, and is about right considering how serious a Black Crusade is supposed to be.

 

It's still about 1/10 of the nominal Loyalist force count.

 

It may be about 1/10 of the Loyalists. But you are not including the other legions and the other traitors. Their are very well several traitors in the Maelstrom and enough everywhere. And the Word Bearers should have at least 30k. So you traitors aren't that outnumbered when you think of it.

[trolly]

hi,

 

This what i have in mind in OP first post.

5 x Dark Apostle = 9000, so per DA it would be 1800 (no wonder kol badar maybe have 100+ terminators).

And that not the entire legion.

How many DA does the WB have? much more than 15 IMHO.

Have you guys ever think of Legion rivalry.

I believe that the info that marduk have is just some blow-up from BL sorcerer.

That why Abaddon always failed.

 

cheers,

:no:

[Grey Mage]

Well of course theyre large- remember, there were supposedly 250,000 ultramarines before the world eaters attacked them?

 

And Horus was the Warmaster, Im sure he got alot of recruits during his crusades.

 

Last I recalled, the imperium had about a full third of its military power set in the area around the eye of terror just because of stuff like this.

[trolly]

hi,

 

Well of course theyre large- remember, there were supposedly 250,000 ultramarines before the world eaters attacked them?

 

word bearer you mean?

when WE attacked UM?

 

cheers,

:(

[The Nephilim]

The way I understand it, is the amount mustered by the five, (I'm about half-way through the book) isn't even a good chunk of their army. Remember they each of member of the Council has probably an equivalent sized force as Ekodas, and if I remember it correctly, Kor Phaderon's is larger still. And then on top of all of that, you still got the populations of Sicarus and Ghalmek, and the various outposts and dark crusades currently warring across the galaxy.

[minigun762]

The way I understand it, is the amount mustered by the five, (I'm about half-way through the book) isn't even a good chunk of their army. Remember they each of member of the Council has probably an equivalent sized force as Ekodas, and if I remember it correctly, Kor Phaderon's is larger still. And then on top of all of that, you still got the populations of Sicarus and Ghalmek, and the various outposts and dark crusades currently warring across the galaxy.

 

That was my point Nephilim. This grouping of Word Bearers is substanstial, but its far from everyone.

 

Doing some quick math, we're looking 20,000+ Word Bearers between this grouping and the other Council Members easy. That means 200,000 Black Legionnaires or 200 Chapters worth.

[Capt. Lysander]

90k Black Legion... What a horror to face- they aren't the only chaos warband... Not only that, but most of them are 10k year old veterans :cuss

[chillin]

WE ARE LEGION !!!!

[Grey Mage]

Ha, ha, ha :P.

 

But seriously, dont the chaos gods resurrect half the marines that fall anyways?

[Draeden]

Nope. Chaos Gods are fickle and unless you truely catch their gaze, they'll consume your soul and continue on when you die.

 

The only real exclusion is Thousand Sons, who, when their Rubrics get destroyed, their soul get bound into another suit of power armour. Effectively ressurecting the Rubric (Sorcerers don't get this though, Sorcerer dies, sorcerer stays dead).

[Magnus Thane]

1) It is a BL novel so nrs are to be taken with a grain of salt.

2) However the BL being the largest Legion doesn't surprise me given their leader, place among the other Chaos Marines and the insinuated recruitment drive / appeal in the fluff of the codex etc.

[The Nephilim]

Behold! Another BL nay-sayer! Seriously... There are more BL books than codices and I think I'm gonna side with them when it comes to numbers. Especially in the newer books.

[Askari]

I've said this before and i'll say it again. I don't believe most CSMs are 10k year old vets. The hevy casualties from the heresy and the fact that they had to have increased in size greatly since the heresy means that most Chaos marines are about the same age as loyalist marines. I don't believe any of the legions were more than a few tens of thousands of marines during the crusade or heresy. It makes no sense when you remember that the second founding comprised only about 50 chapters, only 50,000 marines and the loyalists most likely outnumbered the traitors at this point.

 

The Chaos marines have most likely expanded their numbers from less than 50,000 marines at the end of the heresy to a few hundred thousand after 10,000 years. Most of the traitor commanders in books are veterans of the heresy but it's never been stated that the men under their command are just as old.

 

Considering all the casualties that chaos marines sustain from fighting with each other and the imperium and the fact that their numbers have been increasing, the only logical conclusion is that the majority of chaos marines are relatively new recruits.

[The Nephilim]

In some of the legions, I'd agree with you, Askari, especially in the cases of BL and some of the smaller ones that need to kepe fresh numbers. In the case of some of the orthers, such as WB and AL, I'd say their ratio of vets vs recruits is in a larger ratio than some of the other Chaos forces.

 

As to the numbers, I think each legion varies drastically, but I'm sticking with my view points. None of the codices state how large the legions and warbands are, so I'm gonna keep with the BL fiction.

[minigun762]

I have no problems trusting most of what is said in BL sources, as long as its not too crazy.

 

With the size of the Legions question, we all know its going to be damn near impossible to get a hard and fast number. So the best we can do is approximate and ballpark it.

 

For example, the IA article for IW lists them at around 12k. Thats a far cry from the very conservative numbers we're getting of the current strength of the Black Legion especially considering statements of the Black Legion post-Heresy like this one:

The Legion's tactics have been shaped by its lack of numerical strength compared to other Legions, and commanders are adept at using their troops to the best effect

[Aqui]

I have no problems trusting most of what is said in BL sources, as long as its not too crazy.

 

With the size of the Legions question, we all know its going to be damn near impossible to get a hard and fast number. So the best we can do is approximate and ballpark it.

 

For example, the IA article for IW lists them at around 12k. Thats a far cry from the very conservative numbers we're getting of the current strength of the Black Legion especially considering statements of the Black Legion post-Heresy like this one:

The Legion's tactics have been shaped by its lack of numerical strength compared to other Legions, and commanders are adept at using their troops to the best effect

 

That last quote is what I remember from the Rogue Trader era rule books Lost and the Damned and Slaves to Darkness, and the main reason why I love the BL so much (even back then I was always a BL fan) They were (are) outnumbered due to the survivors' schism (as in everyone went their separate ways...) and also down to attrition (no readily available way to recruit initiates)

 

However, if the BL really does have that many troops..... :)

[Askari]

I don't see how it makes any sense for the Black legion to be outnumbered by another legion. The BL probably have he greatest supply new recruits, they have some of the best dark adepts and sorcerors to make berzerkers and plague marines, and they are considered the strongest legion by all accounts.

 

And the 12,000 man estimate for the iron warriors is pre-heresy. Pre-hersey they had 12 grand companies of about 1,000 marines each. After the heresy there have been many new grand companies created and split off so that the legion is now most likely well above the original 12,000, thoguh the average size of grand companies has probably fallen as warsmiths split off the form new grand companies and warbands.