Black Legion size (spoilers inside)

[minigun762]

I don't see how it makes any sense for the Black legion to be outnumbered by another legion. The BL probably have he greatest supply new recruits, they have some of the best dark adepts and sorcerors to make berzerkers and plague marines, and they are considered the strongest legion by all accounts.

 

I think the difference is that right after the Heresy, the Black Legion seemed to be in the weakest position outside of the Emperor's Children. They were without a Primarch, their Legion was devastated by the god switching back and forth and they generally got picked on by others.

 

This means that the Black Legion went from being one of the smallest Legions out there to (potentially) the largest in the 10k years after the Heresy.

Pretty impressive I think.

[Legatus]

There seem to be two different positions even among GW studio writers. One side says that Space Marine Legions were about 100,000 men strong on average, while the others say that Legions were about 10,000 men strong on average. The 100k figures got started by the BL "Collected Vision" artbooks if I am not mistaken, and got adopted by the Horus Heresy novels as far as I know, and even by some more recent GW publications. This Black Legion numbers are obviously based on these assumed Legion Strengths.

The 10k numbers are used in the Index Astartes series and in the most current Codex Space Marines, and they are coinciding more reasonably with the traditional and established number of successor Chapters that were created during the 2nd founding, so that is the number I prefer to go by.

 

 

Example of a GW source that refers to 100K: 4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines (page 7):

 

"Numbering hundreds of thousands of genetically enhanced warriors, with fearsome weapons and starships to carry them to battle, each Space Marine Legion was powerful enough to concuer worlds."

 

However, a generic strength of "hundreds of thousands" per Legion exceeds even the Black Library figures, so perhaps this was just a blunder, or perhaps it was meant to refer to the total number of Marines, who were divided into 20 Legions, and by mistake got rewritten into "hundreds of thousands... each Legion".

 

Incidentally, the Istvaan III account given in the same Codex (4thCSM) seems to go with the 10,000 numbers (page 12):

 

"On the planet's surface had been over one hundred companies of Space Marines drawn from the Emperor's Children, Death Guard and World Eaters Legions, still loyal to the Emperor. Of these, fully two-thirds miraculously survived the bombardment, thanks to warning messages they received from loyal comrades aboard the orbiting fleet of Warmaster Horus.

Whilst Horus resolved what to do with these survivors, Angron, headstrong Primarch of the World Eaters, made planetfall at the head of fifty companies of Space Marines."

 

The text does not give Legion sizes, only the numbers for the particular elements involved. There were 10,000 loyal Marines left on the planet (100 companies, a company equalling 100 men), Angron attacked with 5,000 World Eaters. If that text was based on the 100k Legion sizes that would mean that only about 3% of the Legions' members had remained loyal, and that angron then assaulted them with a mere 5% of his World Eaters. If it is based on the 10k figures on the other hand, it would mean that 30% of the present Legions' men had remained loyal, and Angron attacked with full 50% of the World Eaters. I personally find the latter numbers to sound much more reasonable.

Alternatively, the text meant "great companies" when it was refering to "companies", in which case it was obviously based on the 100k numbers.

 

 

Example of a GW source that refers to 10k: 5th Edition Codex Space Marines (page 6):

 

"All was not lost, for the Emperor still had the genetic records of his beloved Primarchs and from these were created the Space Marines - the Angels of Death. Mustered into great, ten thousand strong Legions of the First Founding, they were warriors of immense strength and unbreakable willpower, with an unflinching loyalty to the Emperor."

[minigun762]

There seem to be two different positions even among GW studio writers. One side says that Space Marine Legions were about 100,000 men strong on average, while the others say that Legions were about 10,000 men strong on average. The 100k figures got started by the BL "Collected Vision" artbooks if I am not mistaken, and got adopted by the Horus Heresy novels as far as I know, and even by some more recent GW publications. This Black Legion numbers are obviously based on these assumed Legion Strengths.

The 10k numbers are used in the Index Astartes series and in the most current Codex Space Marines, and they are coinciding more reasonably with the traditional and established number of successor Chapters that were created during the 2nd founding, so that is the number I prefer to go by.

 

 

Example of a GW source that refers to 100K: 4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines (page 7):

 

"Numbering hundreds of thousands of genetically enhanced warriors, with fearsome weapons and starships to carry them to battle, each Space Marine Legion was powerful enough to concuer worlds."

 

However, a generic strength of "hundreds of thousands" per Legion exceeds even the Black Library figures, so perhaps this was just a blunder, or perhaps it was meant to refer to the total number of Marines, who were divided into 20 Legions, and by mistake got rewritten into "hundreds of thousands... each Legion".

 

Incidentally, the Istvaan III account given in the same Codex (4thCSM) seems to go with the 10,000 numbers (page 12):

 

"On the planet's surface had been over one hundred companies of Space Marines drawn from the Emperor's Children, Death Guard and World Eaters Legions, still loyal to the Emperor. Of these, fully two-thirds miraculously survived the bombardment, thanks to warning messages they received from loyal comrades aboard the orbiting fleet of Warmaster Horus.

Whilst Horus resolved what to do with these survivors, Angron, headstrong Primarch of the World Eaters, made planetfall at the head of fifty companies of Space Marines."

 

The text does not give Legion sizes, only the numbers for the particular elements involved. There were 10,000 loyal Marines left on the planet (100 companies, a company equalling 100 men), Angron attacked with 5,000 World Eaters. If that text was based on the 100k Legion sizes that would mean that only about 3% of the Legions' members had remained loyal, and that angron then assaulted them with a mere 5% of his World Eaters. If it is based on the 10k figures on the other hand, it would mean that 30% of the present Legions' men had remained loyal, and Angron attacked with full 50% of the World Eaters. I personally find the latter numbers to sound much more reasonable.

Alternatively, the text meant "great companies" when it was refering to "companies", in which case it was obviously based on the 100k numbers.

 

 

Example of a GW source that refers to 10k: 5th Edition Codex Space Marines (page 6):

 

"All was not lost, for the Emperor still had the genetic records of his beloved Primarchs and from these were created the Space Marines - the Angels of Death. Mustered into great, ten thousand strong Legions of the First Founding, they were warriors of immense strength and unbreakable willpower, with an unflinching loyalty to the Emperor."

 

Nice references Legatus.

It sounds like its hard to even get it with a factor of 10 of the right answer, which I'm sure is frustrating for others as well as myself.

 

I'm a background nerd so I like to have some kind of idea of what is going on behind the scenes.

[Drakor_alive]

I am not suprised by this figure as for one even though they took crushing blows during the Horus Heresy we are led to beleive the legions had vast numbers of marines for all that crusading they were doing not mention they also have had 10,000 years to build back up

[LorgarXVII17]

The combined Hosts of Marduk, Belegosa and all of the others was around 9000, but did you forget all the other Hosts? If Marduks is the 34th, one can assume that there are at least 33 others, probably more than that. Likely, the Word Bearers number far more than 9000. This would only mean the Black Legion has even more marines. I still say my Word Bearers could take on any of Abaddons dogs.

[Badhaggis]

black legion are actually ment to be one of the smaller ones. "The Legion's tactics have been shaped by its lack of numerical strength compared to other Legions, and commanders are adept at using their troops to the best effect" i expect he was refering to the amount of allied warbands and such. the tue sons of horus part of the legion is probebly a lot smaller than many of the other legions. alpha legion is smaller but thats about it.

[Legatus]

The combined Hosts of Marduk, Belegosa and all of the others was around 9000, but did you forget all the other Hosts? If Marduks is the 34th, one can assume that there are at least 33 others, probably more than that. Likely, the Word Bearers number far more than 9000. This would only mean the Black Legion has even more marines. I still say my Word Bearers could take on any of Abaddons dogs.

Well, according to Black Library anyways...

[Magnus Thane]

I don't see how it makes any sense for the Black legion to be outnumbered by another legion. The BL probably have he greatest supply new recruits, they have some of the best dark adepts and sorcerors to make berzerkers and plague marines, and they are considered the strongest legion by all accounts.

 

I think the difference is that right after the Heresy, the Black Legion seemed to be in the weakest position outside of the Emperor's Children. They were without a Primarch, their Legion was devastated by the god switching back and forth and they generally got picked on by others.

 

This means that the Black Legion went from being one of the smallest Legions out there to (potentially) the largest in the 10k years after the Heresy.

Pretty impressive I think.

 

Time passes differently in the Warp, plus they are led by the Warmaster, which gives BL plenty of perks to lure in new recruits.

In the end this debate will go round and round without a conclusion. There are no exact nrs after all, fluff contradicts itself and gets rewritten constantly... regretfully.

[LordGates]

Don't forget that in Storm of Chaos, tens of thousands of space marine gene seed was taken by the IW for Abaddon.