Usefulness of Heavies in Tac squads

[minigun762]

So as a Chaos player, I'm always doubling up on specials and making my troop squads mobile.

However we can do like Codex Marines and take a Heavy in the same squads.

 

So my question to my weak Loyalist brother is, how much help is that Heavy Weapon really?

[Xeonic]

Well, the basic set of heavy weapons is free, and codex marines don't get a CCW to go with their bolt pistol, so a more static shooting posture works better with loyalists.

Thus heavy weapons are a must take for all codex marines, even if it's just the free missile launcher.

To put it another way, loyalist tacticals can tote plasma cannons, where chaos have to rely on oblits for that. How useful do you find plasma cannon to be? :sick:

 

EDIT: I'll get into it a little further, you can take a 10 man squad with a razorback, powerfist, special(flamer or melta usually) and combi weapon to match the special, combat squad down and leave your plasma cannon or lascannon in a vantage point. *Bam* scoring mini devestators.

Take sicarius, give them tank hunters and a las/melta/combi melta combo and unleash that S10 lascannon on hostile armor.

Heavy weapon tacticals are so good right now that it's hard to even fit devestators in a list anymore. :(

 

EDIT2: forgot to mention that as always, a tac squad with heavy weapon in a rhino on an objective can of course fire it if the rhino doesn't move. Thus you have rhinos that for a handful of points can drop plasma cannon templates.

[Grey Mage]

So as a Chaos player, I'm always doubling up on specials and making my troop squads mobile.

However we can do like Codex Marines and take a Heavy in the same squads.

 

So my question to my weak Loyalist brother is, how much help is that Heavy Weapon really?

For C:SM there is NEVER a reason to not take that missile launcher- it adds a huge amount of flexability to the squad, and all you lose is 1 bolter shot at 12" for a Str 8 AP 3 shot at 24+.

 

For chaos... its less of a deal- you have to pay for them for starters, and on top of it you have access to second special weapon, allowing you to double up on their effectiveness. I think the addition of the autocannon as an option is often overlooked, but it becomes a mute point with the more assault oriented disposition of C:SM squads.

 

But if I was making a firebase squad I think Id trade a Plasmagun for an Autocannon of Missile Launcher, just for the extra range, and IIRC the extra 5pts.

[minigun762]

Yeha thats about what I thought.

 

Chaos players often toy with the idea of Heavy weapons, but overall it seems like it runs counter to our playstyle.

[Xeonic]

I dunno, I like the idea of a quad autocannon(or mixed ML and AC possibly) havoc squad for rhino busting in larger point games. Roughly equivalent to the quad missile devastators only better. Same cost with 10 bodies, loyals get one BS5 heavy due to signum, chaos get...+1A each on the bodybags. I think chaos wins again. :)

 

I do admit I like to throw in an odd heavy weapon to take the BS5 though, a lascannon or PC that I can combat squad off.

[spartan249]

I'd rather have my tactical squads take two special weapons, to be honest. Having 1 heavy weapon isn't going to make or break my game, and tactical squads are one of the only real squads that are going to be using the special weapons to their fullest extent. I want two meltaguns or two flamers or two plasma guns for my drop pod tactical squads so they can actually be useful on the turn they drop.

[Grey Mage]

Theres always combi-weapons....

[spartan249]

10 points for one shot? I'd rather pay 10 points for a plasma gun to replace that useless bolter. Or 5 points for a full on meltagun. Or have 2 free flamers. That's a good day.

[JamesI]

But if I was making a firebase squad I think Id trade a Plasmagun for an Autocannon of Missile Launcher, just for the extra range, and IIRC the extra 5pts.

I tried that for chaos (plasmagun with autocannon or missile launcher). After some testing, I fouind I almost always prefered the extra plasmagun.

 

As for loyalists, if I got free missile launchers, I'd be adding them to squads (probably will get them ina few months when Codex BA comes out). Might not fire it all that much, but the added flexibiltity would be nice.

[Marco Polio]

Think of it this way- a ten man tactical squad with flamer and missile launcher costs 170 points. Which you can then combat squad, for maximum coverage. Can't think what Chaos get 170 points off top of my head, the codex is in the war room, any ideas.

[torgaddon666]

@ Marco Polio: I chomped through a 1500pts Chaos list with dual lash whips with a missile launcher, plasma weaps and a autocannon with 10 termies with calgar. result is I WON, plus I played with a killer HANGOVER.

[Marco Polio]

Definately depends on opponent. But as the missile launcher is free, and most versitile of all the choices I normally go with that in tac squad, along with a flamer for the boys going forward. Last time I played a double lash army the 4 combat squads of tac marines on the table, as well as 5 termies and 2 5 man combat squads of scouts, overwhelmed my opponent with targets for his nasty psychic powers. His head nearly exploded and I chalked up a decent victory.

 

Its the versitility of combat squads that adds to the usefulness of heavies in a marine army.

[General Retreat]

I seriously don't know how anyone can pass up a 5 point Plasma Cannon. Even if you don't use it, the threat of using it is intimidating.

[spartan249]

I can't pass the 5 point plasma cannon up, so I always use it XD

 

That being said, I'd always rather have a meltagun. I know I'm strange, so sue me D:

[minigun762]

I can't pass the 5 point plasma cannon up, so I always use it XD

 

That being said, I'd always rather have a meltagun. I know I'm strange, so sue me D:

 

That wouldn't be a bad combo actually.

 

Plasma Cannon, Meltagun, Power Fist, Rhino

 

Very all-purpose/flexible unit with a focus on MCs/light armor/MEQ/Terminators

 

Match them up with a squad like

Heavy Bolter, Flamer, Power Weapon, Rhino

and you have a good mix

[Xeonic]

I don't like that combo because if you're rushing into melta range you're not spewing plasma templates. However, that's where razorbacks and combat squads shine.

[spartan249]

o.o A tactical squad with a Pcannon, a Mgun, a Powerfist, and a Razorback/Drop Pod is exactly how I run my tactical squads, and they perform the best for me in this configuration. Termies don't DS anywhere near my tac squads if they can help it, and Vehicles keep away from the same squads, so I'm happy with it.

[mowglie]

The missile launcher isn't free. Any heavy costs you one bolter shot when you're moving in rapid fire range in addition to the points. Worth it?

 

Doesn't it depend on how you use your tactical squads?

 

The usual way I play mech SM is by getting into rapid fire range, disembarking, and rapid firing. The heavy weapon doesn't serve this purpose at all, and in fact makes my squad worse at the thing I want to do with it.

 

On the other hand, if you play more flexibly, the free missile launcher is pure gold. Let's face it, worse-case scenario you fire 17 shots instead of 18 - that's insignificant - but the ability to fire a krak missile out of your rhino hatch and pop a target you would have no answer to without the launcher could be priceless. Or you can hang back and thin that ork horde down with a frag missile from 18-24".

 

I would say that in general, a missile launcher is an insignificant liability, and a significant asset. I don't think it's quite a no-brainer though.

 

Frame the question differently. Would you rather have a heavy or a second special?

 

215 - Tactical Squad (10 models, flamer, flamer, combi-flamer, rhino)

 

I think I'd strongly prefer that to taking a heavy...

[Xeonic]

Wow, sounds like you should be playing chaos, or wulfen. :confused:

You're right though, to a point. The "free" heavy weapon costs you mobility, which is why I love/hate it. It's also why I started a chaos force(also more suited for an agressive mindset to begin with).

One bolter shot isn't worth so much to me that I'll ever give up my points free S8 shot @ 48" for it, in fact the "free" heavy weapons have forced me to adjust my tactics a bit in 5th.

Basically if the missile launcher gets fired once or twice per game and gets kills you wouldn't have gotten besides(say, light armor or speeder kills) it's worth taking even if you're playing agressively.

The real joy is of course the PC that cost a mere fistful of points though. It's almost always worth standing still to get off PC templates.

 

When blood angels get their new codex, I doubt they'll get heavy weapons for free because they're a different type of force.

[mowglie]

*nods* exactly. In all probability, you'll be sitting still one or two turns per game, and those missile shots are probably better than a single bolter shot on the turn you disembark.

 

And yeah, I should probably be playing Tau, or CSM/SW counts-as...

[minigun762]

I don't like that combo because if you're rushing into melta range you're not spewing plasma templates.

 

Well the way I was looking at it was to play based on the opponent's army type.

 

Playing a mech IG army, that PC isn't going to be very helpful so mount up and get close with the Meltagun/Power Fist.

 

Playing against hordies, blast them with that PC and possibly counter-charge once they're up close.

 

Because there is little overlap in the weapons, it lets you decide how best to use the squad in any situation.

[Gothical]

What do you think about chucking a Combi-Weapon onto that set-up?

 

A combi-flamer would mean you can spew high-AP death with the template, have short-ranged armour busting even on the move, and still be able to take on Hordes in a pinch.

 

Sounds pretty good to me actually (I might have to replace my MM/MG/CF setup - though I prefer PW to PF based on looks).

[minigun762]

What do you think about chucking a Combi-Weapon onto that set-up?

 

Combi's are a good way for Loyalist to have a back up weapon. I think the best version is probably adding either a Combi-Flamer for an insta-hit anti-infantry shot or a Combi-Melta for a better chance of killing an enemy vehicle.

[Grey Mage]

Frankly, I think with the new nid codex on the rise, loyalists in particular should look to having a good strong heavy weapon in each and every squad to get more wounds on the big stuff... it doesnt really hurt against the small stuff either.

[minigun762]

Has anyone had any success using the Multi-Melta in their Tac squads?

It seem that even outside 12", its a better anti-tank option then the Missile Launcher due to AP1 but I wonder if its just too short ranged to really be effective.