How to defeat mech guard in large games

[templargdt]

Hey guys, looking for some advice on this topic. If you are facing a large mech guard force how do you build a list to defeat it. It was this sort of list that blew through 'Ard Boyz and I'm starting to see more Guard players.

 

Consider something like this:

 

2 Command Squads with Plasmas in Chimeras, Master of the Fleet and Astropath

Psyker battle squad, in Chimera

Infantry Platoon, 3 squads in Chimeras with heavy weapons

Command Squad, 4 flamers, In Chimera

2 Special weapon squads with melta/demo

2 Vet squads with Meltas, Chimeras

2 Valkyries (to carry melta vets who give their Chimeras to the special weapon squads.)

Inquisitor with mystics

Several artillery pieces.

 

I'm not sure how to crack this nut. As I see it you have a few options:

 

1. Drop pod assault. Considering the Inquisitorial mystics backed up by the artillery pieces, this is probably a bad idea. Besides with the demo charges in valkeries(if they start on the boad) plus the plasma squads any infantry I drop pod assault is dead after they drop, so I'll waste a large amount of points to kill a couple Chimeras. Even Ironclads would be meat on the table if the Melta Vets start on the table. Also Ironclads (even with Vulkan twin linking their meltas) aren't going to kill a whole lot on the drop pod assault.

 

2. Outflank with Khan. Here the Master of the Fleet completely hoses you. Your reserves come in on a 5+ and you re-roll the board edge if the opponent doesn't like it. In my opinion you simply won't be able to generate enough mass as your reserves trickle in and you will get cut to pieces. The only out I think would be to run both Khan and Tigerius to get the reserve re-rolls, but you still have the re-roll table side issue, and you just droped 390 points on 5 wounds of models in power armor. Not good.

 

3. Suck it up and drive across the board hugging cover and using smoke launchers, probably alternating which vehicles are in front to cover the others while smoking. The Artillery, twin linked lascannons, Psyker squad and plasma guns are going to hammer you on the way in. Not a good idea if going second. Oh, and he has the reroll successful cover save order as well.

 

4. Reserve everything. Probably the only way to survive going second against the list. You still have the problem of coming in dribs and drabs from the Master of the Fleet.

 

Mulling it over, building the list in my head I really think you need Tigerius against this list. If you go second you're going to have to reserve everything or die. He also will give you a Hood against the Psker squad, which is good. If I'm spending 230 points on my first HQ, I'm not taking a second, probably even at 2500 points. The rest of the list I'm unsure of. I'm thinking avoid Land Raiders as they are 250 point melta vet magnets. Maybe a lot of tactical squads in Rhinos backed up by a lot of attack bikes.

 

What do you guys think?

[minigun762]

There are a few things that I think work well for killing IG

 

1) RifleDread + Combi-Predators = long range tank busters, use them to down those damn skimmers

2) Land Speeders with MM/HF. Either deepstrike in or just run up the board, fry a tank or burn some of the Command Squads as they hide in cover

3) Missile Dev Squad, hide in cover and makes for a durable flexible gun platform

4) Tacticals in Rhinos, sure they're going to get killed but even a few Marines in HtH combat will be an easy victory for the most part. Flamers/Meltaguns and Heavy Bolters/Multi-Melta/Missiles backed up by Power Weapons will good loadout.

5) Keep the super killy stuff like TH/SS Terminators at home. They're grossly overkill.

6) I wouldn't worry about Land Raiders, thats what they bring their Melta Vets for. Its one thing to lose a 35 point Rhino, its quite another to lose a 250 point Land Raider.

7) Ironclads in Drop Pods seem like very good distraction units. Use them in a similar fashion as your Land Speeders with Melta/Heavy Flamer. As long as you're in HtH combat, you'll be safe since can only bring S6 Power Fists.

[Vaktathi]

There are a few things that I think work well for killing IG

 

1) RifleDread + Combi-Predators = long range tank busters, use them to down those damn skimmers

2) Land Speeders with MM/HF. Either deepstrike in or just run up the board, fry a tank or burn some of the Command Squads as they hide in cover

3) Missile Dev Squad, hide in cover and makes for a durable flexible gun platform

4) Tacticals in Rhinos, sure they're going to get killed but even a few Marines in HtH combat will be an easy victory for the most part. Flamers/Meltaguns and Heavy Bolters/Multi-Melta/Missiles backed up by Power Weapons will good loadout.

5) Keep the super killy stuff like TH/SS Terminators at home. They're grossly overkill.

6) I wouldn't worry about Land Raiders, thats what they bring their Melta Vets for. Its one thing to lose a 35 point Rhino, its quite another to lose a 250 point Land Raider.

7) Ironclads in Drop Pods seem like very good distraction units. Use them in a similar fashion as your Land Speeders with Melta/Heavy Flamer. As long as you're in HtH combat, you'll be safe since can only bring S6 Power Fists.

 

This is all pretty good stuff.

 

As a CSM player and an IG player, I've found that people consistently tool to face marine armies and marine tanks, and that normally works well against Tau and Eldar too a lot, and now they've started to take flamers and blast weapons to deal with Orks. However IG are another bag altogether. When you are facing 15 AV12/14 tanks and skimmers in 2000pts with almost 80 infantry, replete with a couple dozen meltaguns, large numbers of lascannons, triple battlecannons, a dozen heavy bolters and a large number of heavy flamers, autocannons and multilasers, the game changes, especially when they don't care about the assault element.

 

Land Raiders stuff with deathstar terminator units are pointless against Imperial Guard, they aren't any killier than an equivalent number of basic SM's against most IG stuff, and aren't even too bad against tanks with kraks on everything. Dumping the 500-600pt megaunits is a must. They are just a target that IG will vaporize very quickly. The scariest thing for an IG player to face is a horde of Rhino's loaded with tac marines, because once across the board those tac squads are going to kill at least one unit a turn. Bring on the big scary characters, the megatank, the Über elite unit, that's fine, they are all only marginally killier than their weeniest counterparts when it comes to IG, and they cost 2,3 or 4 times as much and more, without a commensurate increase in defensive capabilities.

 

Multiple assaults are something I see SM players all too often fail to utilize. Almost every game at least one (usually more) opportunities for this occur. If you are assaulting an IG unit, hit it's transport too or the HWS on the level above it. Taking out mulitple units with one assault is really how things need to be done, not eating one unit a turn. 10 marines charging into two guard squads holding a ruin should attempt to hit both (and all too often SM players just won't) and will likely succeed in killing both squads with minimal casualties if they do.

 

 

 

Another word of advice is to avoid a drop pod reliant list. A competent IG player will take this into account. Having a couple drop pod units is useful (an ironclad or two to come in and melta something and hopefully survive another turn to do it again), but relying on it will see the IG player castle up, making it impossible to deploy anywhere you'd actually like to be, and leaving you with, at best, shots against your real targets with fat 4+ or 3+ cover saves or forcing you to spend that 180pt drop podding ironclad or tac squad to vent on a 50pt infantry squad before they eat it the next turn. Also beware that Mystics and Officers of the Fleet will greatly hurt armies that are over reliant on drop pods.

 

 

Additionally, don't fall into the trap of overfocusing on the command squads. IG aren't Vampire Counts, they don't crumble if the Officer dies. Orders are *nice*, they are *useful* but they aren't in any way *needed* or *mandatory* for an IG army to function, and many of the best IG armies (mechanized) won't really use them at all, and CMD squads will essentially be nothing more than 4 Special gun squads. I've had several opponents dump far more firepower than they should have into trying to kill a command squad, leaving other elements intact and unmolested to strike back.

 

Finally, many SM players simply aren't aware of just how much firepower an IG army can field, and are dumbfounded when their Land Raider and 3 Rhino's are all dead turn 1 and they've lost half their infantry because they thought a cover save from smoke would let them get across the table without needing to try to use terrain to block LoS or the like. *DO NOT* compete in a shooting war with Imperial Guard. We all know these players that want to make shooty death kill SM lists, and they work against other SM's, sometimes Eldar and the like, but they just don't against IG. You aren't going to win without a very significant assault effort, trying to compete in a shooting war will not work.

 

IG also become far more powerful the more points you add on with a single FoC than any other army due to the hugely expandable nature of their selections (not being limited to just 1 tank per FoC for example, but 3, or not just 1 squad of 10 dudes per FoC but an entire platoon with nearly 150 wounds and 6 tanks) so they keep adding bodies and guns where other armies end up just adding on extras and upgrades.

 

For a 2000pt force, this is actually what I'm currently fielding for my "I'm not playing you again" list.

 

CCS: 4x Melta, Astropath, Chimera w/Mutlilaser, Heavy Flamer

 

Elites:

Marbo

 

Troops:

PCS, 4x Melta, Chimera w/Mutlilaser, Heavy Flamer

Infantry Squad, Autocannon, Grenade Launcher, Chimera w/Multilaser, Heavy bolter

Infantry Squad, Autocannon, Grenade Launcher, Chimera w/Multilaser, Heavy bolter

SWS, 3 meltaguns (rides in Vendetta)

SWS, 3 meltaguns (rides in Vendetta)

 

PCS, 4x Melta, Chimera w/Mutlilaser, Heavy Flamer

Infantry Squad, Autocannon, Grenade Launcher, Chimera w/Multilaser, Heavy bolter

Infantry Squad, Autocannon, Grenade Launcher, Chimera w/Multilaser, Heavy bolter

SWS, 3 meltaguns (rides in Vendetta)

 

Fast Attack:

Vendetta

Vendetta

Vendetta

 

Heavy Support:

LRBT w/hull Heavy Bolter

LRBT w/hull Heavy Bolter

LRBT w/hull Heavy Bolter

 

 

That's 7 chimeras, 3 Vendetta's, 3 LRBT's, or 13 armored vehicles, and 75 Infantry. *21* Meltaguns, 9 of which can potentially strike within melta-range almost anywhere on the board being loaded in Scouting vendetta's (I've pulled this a couple times dumping meltaguns into an opponents Land Raiders turn 1), 3 Battlecannons, 1 Demo Charge, 7 Heavy Bolters, 7 Multilasers, 3 Heavy Flamers, 9 TL Lascannons, 4 Autocannons, 4 Grenade Launchers, 35 Lasguns.

 

Most SM armies aren't used to seeing firepower like that outside of Apocalypse. Those armies that are tend to take far less of the amazing characters and expensive elite units, and tend to just have lots of dudes prioritizing mobility.

[Allerka]

My all-biker army probably would have shredded that list. Since the new IG codex came out, I've never done less than out-and-out massacre or table any Guard army I've faced, even in tournaments. Though I imagine the 'Ard Boyz winner would have still had a shot against me, he clearly knew what he was doing.

 

In any case, my all-biker army negates most of the advantages mechanized Guard have. I have no transports for him to pop, I can get cover saves every turn from the nastiest of his guns, and then I can spam so many meltas in his face he's losing several vehicles a turn and other stuff is getting torn up in combat.

 

So, an all-biker list is a pretty sure shot to taking down Guard. But, obviously, that might not be an option for you, and other SM lists are definitely going to have a harder time.

 

One thing I can also suggest, if he uses combined squads at all (which he probably will for better/easier orders), engage that unit ASAP. If you can get into combat with them, even a Tactical Squad can probably win, and you can force LD checks against it, and there's nothing quite like charging into a 50-man unit, killing three of them, and then annihilating the rest of them because you ran down the unit as they fled. Even if that fails, you can still keep a huge chunk of his manpower tied up in combat for a few rounds, and he'll have a hard time wounding you without any power fists.

 

Pretty much what you need to do is get in his face. Guard is all about staying back and shooting you to death, so you need to get into his lines as quickly as possible. You'll have to weather at least a turn of shooting, potentially two, and you WILL lose stuff, but if you play it right, you'll get enough units into his lines to mess it up that he'll spend the rest of the game trying to run away and shoot you. Fast attack units like Bike Squads and Drop Pod units can help out with that, but don't rely entirely on them if he's got the MOTF.

[gettothegone]

RifleDread + Combi-Predators

 

 

These get my vote, as they're good against multiple things, not just AV12 transports!

[Grey Mage]

That's 7 chimeras, 3 Vendetta's, 3 LRBT's, or 13 armored vehicles, and 75 Infantry. *21* Meltaguns, 9 of which can potentially strike within melta-range almost anywhere on the board being loaded in Scouting vendetta's (I've pulled this a couple times dumping meltaguns into an opponents Land Raiders turn 1), 3 Battlecannons, 1 Demo Charge, 7 Heavy Bolters, 7 Multilasers, 3 Heavy Flamers, 9 TL Lascannons, 4 Autocannons, 4 Grenade Launchers, 35 Lasguns.

 

Most SM armies aren't used to seeing firepower like that outside of Apocalypse. Those armies that are tend to take far less of the amazing characters and expensive elite units, and tend to just have lots of dudes prioritizing mobility.

Yep... cheap, efficient, and killy is the way to go no matter who you play as or against.

 

Whats an LRBT, I got the Leman Russ part....

 

I do disagree with the DP comments youve made though, but mind the standard game around here is 1500pts so that may be skewing our veiws compared to each other. I find that a properly supported wave of DPs can be quite devastating to most IG lists, you just have to take proper deployment and target priority into account and play a much tighter game than against say.... orks.

 

I actually fear an all footslogging IG list more from a podding point of veiw than a mech or semi-mechanized list. Because while I can be fairly well assured of killing the units I target when I land its quite impossible to kill enough of the army to be a significant reduction in total firepower... the best I can do is usually target heavy and special weapon squads to protect my Dreadnaughts as much as possible and hope my armor saves hold out until the second and third waves hit.

 

Against semi-mech I can just target the real threats, like Executioners, Leman Russ's, and Chem Dogs. As soon as something has a shaken/stunned result I can move the heck on and hope to blow it up in a moment... because on the drop the first priority is forcing your opponents forces into a position you can as an army survive.

 

Against Full Mech I can drop in close though, and the IG player has to choose between getting a cover save and allowing me to hide in the hulks of his transports or spreading out and letting me target the threats I want to target. Sure, its a calculated risk... but dropping 3/4 inches away from an IG tank line, meltas on full power and prayers to the emperor intoned is alot better than waiting to die 10" away. Every vehicle disable in some way but not "explodes" is a cover save I get from the real threats that tend to be farther into the box formation they set themselves up in. On the other hand if they put more of their threats in the outer ring I can once again target the marine killers en masse... wich much defeats the purpose of the formation eh?

 

 

Edit: At 2k, against what was posted by the OP, Id probly run this list:

 

5 Units of GHs, 3 Melta Squads, 2 Plasma Squad in DPs.

2 Dreadnaughts in DPs

 

7 Swiftclaws+ Rune Priest on a Bike

2x 2 Typhoons

2x Multimelta Speeders

 

And a unit of Wolf Scouts kitted for Antitank duty. Drop in two Dreads and Two Meltahunters or 1 MG 1 PG during the first wave, rush foward with the bikes and the Stormcalling Rune Priest, and go for side armor or transports with the typhoons while the MM speeders hit anything that was deployed to far forward. If the enemy has more armor than Im seeing there *figuring you meant two artillery peices* Id leave out one dreadnaught for the stability of a third GH squad I think... but itd be a judgement call to make at the time of battle.

 

Edit: With C:SM, Id say two squads of scouts with Powerfist, Meltabomb, combimelta, and a LSS with HF are a must if your expecting alot of enemy armor- IG or no.

[FabulousRex]

I'ld suggest a few things, some of which are unfortunately not seen very often:

 

'Rifle' Dreads sporting 2 TL Autocannons are very nice here as they have pretty good odds of popping a Chimera a turn, and the IG general has to devote several units' worth of firepower to drop your Dread, due to the IG tendancy to focus fire because they don't trust their BS3. This creates an un-even unit to unit firepower trade off, because your 1 Dread will be taking down 1 of his units, while he'll be using 2-3 units to take down your 1 Dread. Take several of these suckers, combined with Rhinos all over, and you'll be taxing his AntiTank. NOTE: you can substitute simple TLLC Dreads for this, but they're alot more "swingy" because they only have 1 (albeit accurate) shot.

 

Bikers of any sort are a pain for IG, and can do a number on Tau while they're at it. The sheer speed of these squads can be quite upsetting for most any IG player, as 24" pretty much puts you in striking range insanely fast. Keep 'em cheap though, no need for a Powerfist unless you want a maxed-out 9man squad to run with an HQ. Just 4 guys and an AB all with Melta (including a MBomb on the Sgt) sets you back 190pts for some pure AT goodness that can capture objectives. That's a pretty damned good deal!

 

Tactical Terms w/Cyclone ML. A small 5-man unit packs a 48" dual-shot ML, and it takes some of the IG player's truly heavy weapons to take them out reliably. Just walk them up the board firing as you go, you've got good odds to down a Chimera or 2, especially if they hug a table edge and go for side armor. Mostly, they'll be a distraction to lure him out of hiding, as he'll probably devote Meltaguns to your Terms so his LCs can shoot your vehicles, but that means leaving his protective bubble of AV12...

[templargdt]

I'm not sold on the all biker army. Sure you're golden if you go first, but what if you don't? You're going to have to reserve everything or get smoked turn one from the Artillery. And then you're back to the 5+ reserve roll and in 'I need Tigerius' land. Along with your 160 point Captain/Bike/Relic Blade Captain to unlock the Biker army.

 

I find the massive foot horde army easy to beat with my Blood Ravens. I fight a blob hoard guy in my store probably once a month and always come out on top, and he runs the 50 man hoard of doom with Stracken, a Commissar and 6 powerswords and meltabombs. The blob squad is a points sink. I'm much worried about the Executioner/Demolisher LRBT he runs.

 

I'm seriously reconsidering my entire Blood Ravens army, since my 2 Land Raider Redeemers/TH termies just seem out of place fighting mech guard, which I think is in the ascendant. They're great against most armies I fight, but man do they stink in this fight.

 

A hoard of Rhinos is needed I think, along with either Rifle Dreads, Combi-Preds or Missile Launcher Devastators. But where in the world are we going to get our counter charge units to save our butts from Plague Marines, etc?

 

Second Look at Vanguard Vets in Rhinos?

[minigun762]

I'm seriously reconsidering my entire Blood Ravens army, since my 2 Land Raider Redeemers/TH termies just seem out of place fighting mech guard, which I think is in the ascendant. They're great against most armies I fight, but man do they stink in this fight.

 

A hoard of Rhinos is needed I think, along with either Rifle Dreads, Combi-Preds or Missile Launcher Devastators. But where in the world are we going to get our counter charge units to save our butts from Plague Marines, etc?

 

I think you're on the right track. There has been alot of discussion in the "how to make a competitive Codex Army" threat about this and I still stand on the point that Codex Marines can generate enough firepower that they don't NEED to have dedicated assault units.

Counter-assault units can be a big bonus though. The difference is that Counter-assault can normally wait behind your lines and hop out at the last minute to intercept a charge instead of trying to cross the board and force the engagement. Assault Scouts and Assault Marines are both examples of decent counter-assaulters. As long as you have a Power Fist, you'll be ok against things like Plague Marines.

[Allerka]

I'm not sold on the all biker army. Sure you're golden if you go first, but what if you don't? You're going to have to reserve everything or get smoked turn one from the Artillery. And then you're back to the 5+ reserve roll and in 'I need Tigerius' land. Along with your 160 point Captain/Bike/Relic Blade Captain to unlock the Biker army.

If you're going second, then just stay in cover. You get 4+'s instead of 3+, but it still gives you a shot at surviving. You're turbo-boosting the first turn anyway, so you can afford to stay out of sight. And I pay 215 points for my biker Captain, though I also play 1850-2000 points games, not sure what you play at.

[Vaktathi]

My all-biker army probably would have shredded that list. Since the new IG codex came out, I've never done less than out-and-out massacre or table any Guard army I've faced, even in tournaments. Though I imagine the 'Ard Boyz winner would have still had a shot against me, he clearly knew what he was doing.

really? I've never had a problem with Biker armies, especially if I have first turn (I actually can't recall the last game I've *lost* against Space Marines of any flavor with Imperial Guard, I don't think I have with the new IG codex). If I get first turn a third to a half the bikes are already dead, if they get first turn it's usually them sprinting forward to then meet tank shocks, tarpit assaults, and wall blocking with Chimeras, I end up losing the chimeras while the bikes try and get around them as everything else shoots the crap out of the bikes. I've never seen anyone *but* IG pack enough meltas to deal with 13 vehicles like that. Each Melta at BS4 has just over a 25% chance to kill a chimera with each shot, and about a 20% chance to kill a Leman Russ, so it's not usually the melta's, but the krak grenades and powerfists. Often a bike squad will melta a chimera and kill it, then be stuck there with their pants down after having killed a 55pt transport.

 

 

I find the bikes work best as a support unit, having one or two run amok, not en masse, as they suffer from the same problem that much of the other SM stuff like TH/SS termi's do against IG. Using a meltagun to kill a 25/30pt Space Marine works just as well for me as killing a rhino, likewise with a lascannon.

 

The all biker list seems to rely too much on getting first turn, (and god help you if the IG player brought a brace of Collossus guns or Bane Wolf's). If it goes first it's much scarier, but even then seems like it would require a lot of support, the bikes are very expensive, two bikes cost what a Chimera does, and I think suffer from the same issue as many of the other fancier SM stuff against IG.

[Koremu]

Things to remember about IG armour:

 

Weak Flanks. Can't be stressed enough. The reason Bikes work is because they will almost always be shooting at side armour.

 

AV10 rear. This means that any Marine is a threat to an IG tank in H2H.

 

Both of the above together mean that IG tanks that you get near to tend to have to move, or else they will die.

 

As a result many IG lists feature heavy duty counter units like Bane Wolves, Rough Riders or straight tarpit Infantry.

 

On the subject of Infantry, it is important to remember that a large IG Infantry platoon is the most immovable thing in 40k. A single unit with 55 wounds, Ld9, Stubborn and rerolls for morale tests takes a lot of moving, especially if the whole lot has a 3+ or 4+ cover save.

[templargdt]

Our games and tournaments locally are usually 2000 points. We did an 8 man tournament last week in our FLGS and the Mech guard player came out on top, and it wasn't really close. He didn't even pack the Inquistitor Drop Pod insurance since we locally ban allying in Inquisition forces (but Inquisition armies can ally in IG per the codex.) (For the discussion other players were two Nids, one footslogger guard, One space wolf, one Raven Guard, and yours truly coming in Third behind the Mech Guard and a Nid player.)

 

I'm really hoping that the Tyranid codex coming this month gives the IG guys fits and that we can own the Tyranids. Because bottom line I think the IG needs some sort of rock to their scissors at this point. I read the 'Ard Boyz batreps from the overall winner on BOLS and the games weren't even close.

 

If I do switch to a large force of Rhinos, I'm thinking of maybe going Tac Squads with Meltagun, Power Fist, Missile Launcher, Razorback and Sicarius-counts-as for Rites of Battle and Combat Squading everything. Kill points would be tough, but You could put good anti-horde/anti-light armor firepower down range while advancing on the enemy with enough force to kill them if you make it.

[minigun762]

If I do switch to a large force of Rhinos, I'm thinking of maybe going Tac Squads with Meltagun, Power Fist, Missile Launcher, Razorback and Sicarius-counts-as for Rites of Battle and Combat Squading everything. Kill points would be tough, but You could put good anti-horde/anti-light armor firepower down range while advancing on the enemy with enough force to kill them if you make it.

 

For straight killing IG, a Power Fist is actually overkill. With Kraks on almost everything, you can pop even Demolisher's AV11. Power Weapons already wound on 3's and get an extra hit so they're cheaper/better.

 

A mix of Meltas and Flamers will be nice, depending on how many tanks vs infantry he takes. Remember you can always sneak some Combi-Flamers in there. 1 shot weapon but its auto-hit which is nice.

 

As for Heavies, I don't like the Missile Launcher in Tacticals, its too "all-purpose" and I think it promotes a more "sit and shoot" mentality. I think Multi-Meltas and Heavy Bolters are both better options.

 

Mix my points from above and you could field squads like this:

Heavy Bolter, Meltagun, Power Weapon

Multi-Melta, Flamer, Power Weapon

(or take the anti-infantry and anti-tank weapons together)

 

I don't play Loyalists so take it for what its worth but the named HQs just seem SO expensive. For the Price of Cata, I'd rather take a Jump Pack Chaplain and a Whirlwind.

[General Retreat]

I'd vote for Sicarious. Too many good things to pass up if you ask me. Outflanking a transport full of Tactical Marines is, well, priceless IMHO.

[Koremu]

I'd vote for Sicarious. Too many good things to pass up if you ask me. Outflanking a transport full of Tactical Marines is, well, priceless IMHO.

The other funny trick with Sicarius is to give a Tactical Squad in a Drop Pod Tank Hunters... land them behind a Tank Squadron and throw down 15 shots rolling D6+5 for Penetration (plus 2 Plasma Gun shots and maybe a Plasma Pistol rolling D6+8...). AV 10 was a mistake, kiddies (and for Squadrons, AV facing is determined by the closest model in the squadron).

[Vaktathi]

How often do you see IG players actually *take* squadrons of anything bug Griffons? I never see it, simply because they *are* so ridiculously vulnerable as a result of the terrible squadron rules. Far more often than not you are getting off one round of shooting on a single tank.

 

As to the MM/HB over ML's, HB's against mechanized Imperial Guard are pointless. They are worthless against tanks (except the occaisional hail mary side armor chimera shot) and if you are firing at a 50-70pt infantry squad with one and forfeiting movement and assault with a tac squad, the IG player will thank you. MM's are decent, but you need to be close, and again if you forfeit movement and assault to let your 170-200pt tac squad fire one shot at a tank needing to be relatively close to even hit (or very close for max pen) the IG player again will thank you because chances are what you killed was cheaper than that tac squad, if you killed anything, and they now have that tac squad in sitting at perfect dumpling range.

 

The ML honestly gives you roughly the same effectiveness as both of these weapons, but is actually useful at a range where your only option may be to sit and shoot, and can hurt tanks from afar. Honestly, attempting to utilize a tac squad heavy weapon most of the time won't be as good an idea as moving, shooting specials, and assaulting or moving into assault position. The ML can do both AT and anti infantry, and can be used where you can't utilize better alternative actions.

[templargdt]

Yeah, I think the HB in a Tac Squad is a total no-go. Tac squads already do anti-infantry well enough I think and the HB won't impact a Chimera at all. MM maybe for the +1 to the table, but the range is poor. The ML gives me an anti-light armor option plus something against hordes.

 

I don't see any vehicle squadrons outside of 2500 points locally.

 

Some of the named characters in the Codex are totally worth their points. Vulkan and Kantor provide stupidly good bonuses to your army for above what a normal guy with their gear would cost (I think someone in another thread mathed it out and you paid something like 10 points for Vulkan's twin linking rule in exchange for Combat Tactics. Sheesh!)

 

Has anyone actually tried drop pods in to an IG mech army and had results? To me I think deep striking next to a serious IG army is a mistake thanks to the allied inquisitor. Even if the dude flubs the 4d6 roll to shoot whatever you drop before you even exit the pod whatever you drop on him next turn is going to die, period.

[minigun762]

Has anyone actually tried drop pods in to an IG mech army and had results? To me I think deep striking next to a serious IG army is a mistake thanks to the allied inquisitor. Even if the dude flubs the 4d6 roll to shoot whatever you drop before you even exit the pod whatever you drop on him next turn is going to die, period.

 

Well the Inquisitor normally packs Plasma for Terminators right? So drop an Ironclad on his head. AV13 will keep you save and a single Heavy Flamer can remove entire squads from the board.

[Resv]

Some notes on the Space Marine Biker list for a moment. I LOVE my Bikes and would go to the ends of the Earth to prove that they are one of the best units in the current codex. However, now that I have been playing against Mech IG and with my own IG army I can say there are some serious problems with a heavy Bike list against Guard.

 

Cover doesn't always cover...

This extends to all orders really, but "Fire on my Target" forcing re-rolls is pretty powerful against Bikes. No longer is Turbo Boosting the safest thing in town. "Incoming" allowing a unit in cover to suddenly sport a 2+ cover save is another kick in the teeth.

 

Big Men/Big Bikes

Like it or not Bikes and Templates don't get along to well. And with instant death off any wound of S8 or greater really puts Bikes into a bad spot. There are just to many big templates in the IG codex. The more you spread out your Bikes from one another the better the chances are of getting a few hits off. Double this when being hit by Artillery since you count the direction of the attack from the center of the blast template rather than the direction of the vehicle. Since it isn't too likely that you have moved a whole unit of bikes into cover this puts your unit in jeopardy with out the comfort of a cover save.

 

Terrain, Terrain, Terrain:

Something I have been noticing more and more lately is that many people play with hardly any terrain on their tables. I played this way for quite a while too and I was so sure that my Bike army was completely unstoppable. That was until I stared playing at my local store with all of their available terrain and my bikes couldn't just turbo boost into my opponents lines in turn one. This has meant ruins and buildings litter the field in every game .

 

Also, this extends to people who play with weak terrain; meaning 25% terrain but mostly gentle hillocks and maybe a few low lying walls. It is these cases where a fast army can get across the board in one turn and then start cleaning off the Guard presence. However, factor in a multiple story ruin or two and the dynamic can completely change. A player who simply fortifies their position during set up on the board can set up blocks and barriers to prevent a speedy assault. I know it seems silly but I always seem to lose Bikers to dangerous terrain tests.

 

My answer to dealing with Mech IG forces? Assault Marines are probably my favorite option right now. Really, anything that can get close and personal quickly is worth it's weight in gold. As others have said, Krack Grenades will make short work of every vehicle they can field. Volume is another element I have been looking at. Keeping units on the cheap so that I am able to field more is a rather new mantra for me. Bikes are great but they aren't the be all end by any means since a savy IG player doesn't need to do much to limit their effectiveness.

[templargdt]

I'm sort of in agreement with the Ironclad drop as the best of a bad basket of choices, but still uncertain. (The normal inquisitor support to the gunline is just a pair of mystics hanging out near the artillery battery, not a plasma cannon serrvitor, which is stupidly expensive in the DH codex. Whoever deep strikes you can hit with the artillery.)

 

Problem is (besides maybe getting hit with a STR 10 Ordinance weapon on your IC) you will kill at most a 55 point Chimera and then you're looking at all those meltaguns the dude is packing in the gunline. At least you don't have to worry about the autocannons or plasma guns. Even lascannons really aren't that bad if they're going against the AV13 and you have a cover save.

 

I think it may work if you drop the pod as close as you can to the gunline on the flank, and hide most of the IC behind the pod (hopefully he doesn't have meltagun guys on that side of the gunline.) Hit something with the IC's melta and try and survive the next turn behind the cover of the pod. If you live past the IG player's turn he's got a serious problem as you tear up his flank while your main force closes in. It's something, at least.

 

In over a year of playing 40K I've seen one guy field assault marines, once. I think the massive amounts of templates out there will simply own them, not to mention they get killed by lash/oblit spam. I'm going to be very interested in how they do the blood angels in that respect.

[Grey Mage]

Frankly the problem with assault marines is alot of people just like to charge them up the middle, its a horrid waste of their maneuverability. Note- what I have to say is mostly relevant on GW standard tables- those that have 25% covered in terrain.

 

Hide them. Move them onto the roofs of buildings and behind woods and hills.... and then use your greater speed and ability to wholely ignore terrain to jump over them and then hit your opponent like a ton of bricks.

 

Unless your using them as a distraction to let something else live theres no reason to put them directly in harms way. The reason they get shot at is because when they do get their they do a good job.

[General Retreat]

Yeah, for being such a "weak, underpowered" assault unit, people sure do grant Assault Marines a huge amount of target priority.

 

I think reports of their demise have been greatly over-rated. Sure, they aren't Genestealers, and they aren't Hammernators, but if they're ignored, they're still death for whatever they hit. Attach a Jump Chaplain and a Thunderhammer on the Searge, and no one can ignore them.

[Resv]

Point of order and an Edit on my previous post!!

 

"Bring it Down" doesn't work on T5 like I had written. I don't quite know where that one came from but I feel the need to take responsibility and point out that I was wrong. I will edit the post as necessary.

 

Sorry 'bout that!

 

Last night I was at my FLGS and we got to talking about this topic and the posts made here had B'n'C. We decided to see what kind of havoc we cold inflict on our various IG armies. I know that deep striking is on the outs due to Inquisition Allies but we had pretty good success using a combination of Ironclad Dreds in Drop Pods and then deep striking Assault Marines onto the beacons inside of the pods. This worked very well as a one two punch right into the guard lines. However it didn't work all the time, which is why support from the rest of your army becomes even more important.

[Koremu]

Yeah, for being such a "weak, underpowered" assault unit, people sure do grant Assault Marines a huge amount of target priority.

 

I think reports of their demise have been greatly over-rated. Sure, they aren't Genestealers, and they aren't Hammernators, but if they're ignored, they're still death for whatever they hit. Attach a Jump Chaplain and a Thunderhammer on the Searge, and no one can ignore them.

The thing with Assault Marines is that they are death incarnate if they get to pick their own target. Breaking the weak point of the line is how Assault Squads are supposed to operate. If allowed to do so their maneuverability and speed allows them to selectively crush appropriate targets.

 

The IG (especially) don't have much in the way of infighters who can deal with them in close quarter combat, so they tend to throw firepower in as a priority.