Facing a gunline Guard at 1k/1.5k points

[Grand Master Molusc]

edit: battle has now been played, see this post for a full report

 

Hi there,

 

I’m facing an IG playing friend at 1k points. We’ve been playing each other quite regularly and he’s got himself pared down to quite a regular list now. I can think of 3 possible strategies but first his (likely) list:

Command squad (so BS4)with 4 snipers, artillery strike guy and reserves delaying/outflank rerolling guy

Marbo (some evil no scatter DS, demo charging git)

Platoon with:
2 squads of 10 men with an autocannon and sniper rifle
2 heavy weapon squads with 3 autocannons
1 heavy weapon squad with 3 lascannons
Empty command squad

Veterans (again BS4) with 3 sniper rifles and a missile launcher

Leman russ battle tank with lascannon

2 griffin mortars (only AP4 but rerolling scatter)

Now his army is a very static gun line, and lots of vulnerable infantry with no commisars and I’m sure this is the key to beat him. Apparently commisars cost too much. Surprising lack of armour, but lots of (cowardly) troops for objective holding. I would have expected even the vets to hide in a chimera and shoot but I guess at 1k you have to make sacrifices.

 

My 3 strategic ideas:

 

1. Counter gun line. Whirlwind with incendiary rounds, dev squads. Drop pod a dread in his face on turn 1 or Vanguard jumptroops? Outflanking scouts to deal with the griffons/get into melee/pin his troops? get him running away or pinned

 

2. Razorback rush. Combat squad my tacs, leave 5 at the back with a heavy wep, bring 5 forward with a melta and power fist. Split his fire, he cant ignore the 5 at the back due to objective holding but the guys in his face need killing or he’ll get assaulted. VERY vulnerable to being popped by all those autocannons. Vindicator? Autocannons will have a hell of a time getting it

 

3. Drop pod assault. Dangerous at 1k points as so few things will come in. Also he’ll get a turn to shoot hell for leather at half my army

 

B&C, got any insight into the tactics I should go for?

 

Re any changes he’ll make he’s shied away from bane wolfs (poisoned gas tanks) at 1k points as they die easily and are expensive. (but dear god they kicked ass the first time they hit my lines. He took a special char to make them scout move, got turn 1, and was gassing all my devs in cover before i knew what hit me. Paaaaaain)

 

Has mentioned a valkyrie/vendetta but also said they’re very vulnerable to fire and cost as much as a leman russ when kitted out.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Try Shrike + Scouts if you just want to beat him. If you want all comers, an LR and some Ass Terms will multicharge through him.

[Koremu]

Charge headlong screaming into it with as many Power Armour bodies as you can cram into Rhinos. That list is weak, especially with that many Infantry without a Commissar.

 

Either that or rain of Pods. He's almost totally static, unable to reserve his Heavy weapons without losing their benefit anyway.

 

I wouldn't bother keeping anything at range.

 

My epiphany moment when reading the guard list was when I realised they had nothing that couldn't be killed by a Tactical Marine.

 

Also, Bike Squad.

[Grand Master Molusc]

Charge headlong screaming into it with as many Power Armour bodies as you can cram into Rhinos. That list is weak, especially with that many Infantry without a Commissar.

 

Either that or rain of Pods. He's almost totally static, unable to reserve his Heavy weapons without losing their benefit anyway.

 

I wouldn't bother keeping anything at range.

 

My epiphany moment when reading the guard list was when I realised they had nothing that couldn't be killed by a Tactical Marine.

 

Also, Bike Squad.

 

Hmm so rhino rush instead of razorback? I suppose the ideas was to keep some troops free to grab objectives but i see what you mean about not trying to outgun.

 

Bear with me if I'm being thick, but surely everything IG can field be killed by a tac marine in CC? (apart from ogryns but at 1k they cost a bomb)

 

Thinking ahead (we usually have 3-5 games rejigging the armies in a big session then dont play for a few weeks), I wonder how he'll rejig his list. Mechanised list? Smaller troops with special weapons mounted in chimeras, sentinals for the heavies and leman russes to force me to bring heavy firepower. If thats the case then i guess I should go for the static devs, vindicators etc? Or just counter his fast moving list with my own? Return to the razorback rush idea?

 

I'll admit I'm getting back into the game as I havent played much since 3rd ed so I'm a bit lost at sea...

[Koremu]

Hmm so rhino rush instead of razorback? I suppose the ideas was to keep some troops free to grab objectives but i see what you mean about not trying to outgun.

 

Bear with me if I'm being thick, but surely everything IG can field be killed by a tac marine in CC? (apart from ogryns but at 1k they cost a bomb)

I just task whichever squads lose their Rhinos first with grabbing near objectives... you don't really need to have a unit specifically for the job. Then again I rarely Combat Squad, so you may do things differently.

 

And yes, that's exactly what I mean. EVERYTHING in the IG list can be killed by Tactical Marines. All the vehicles are krakable, all the Infantry suck, and the close combar "specialists" are either very expensive, or are a charge-only one shot weapon.

[kaiserstole20]

How about a nice big squad of assault marines to follow behind the rhinos? Jump pack chaplain for an inexpensive HQ and multi-assault the hell out of 'em.

[Grand Master Molusc]

He cant shoot if hes being assaulted. rhino rush with jumpackers behind them. Excellent thats a plan for game no 1 :D

 

Looking forward to the following game I can see him going mechanised. I would guess something like:

command with snipers and ord bombard

veterans with 3 melta's in a chimera with a heavy stubber and extra armour
veterans with 3 melta's in a chimera with a heavy stubber and extra armour
veterans with 3 melta's in a chimera with a heavy stubber and extra armour

leman russ

then either a pyker squad in a chimera, or a 2nd russ. or mayb swap a vet squad for psykers but i dont see him wanting so few troops for objective holding.

 

I would think dreadnaughts (to keep mobility going instead of devs) to pop the chimeras, then melee him to buggery with jumpackers. The meltas are only 12" range. They wont get a chance to shoot if im moving 12 assaulting 6... whirlwind or two at the back? melta bombs on the jumpackers?

Any flaw in my ideas?

[unbeliever87]

He cant shoot if hes being assaulted. rhino rush with jumpackers behind them. Excellent thats a plan for game no 1 :D

 

Looking forward to the following game I can see him going mechanised. I would guess something like:

command with snipers and ord bombard

veterans with 3 melta's in a chimera with a heavy stubber and extra armour
veterans with 3 melta's in a chimera with a heavy stubber and extra armour
veterans with 3 melta's in a chimera with a heavy stubber and extra armour

leman russ

then either a pyker squad in a chimera, or a 2nd russ. or mayb swap a vet squad for psykers but i dont see him wanting so few troops for objective holding.

 

I would think dreadnaughts (to keep mobility going instead of devs) to pop the chimeras, then melee him to buggery with jumpackers. The meltas are only 12" range. They wont get a chance to shoot if im moving 12 assaulting 6... whirlwind or two at the back? melta bombs on the jumpackers?

Any flaw in my ideas?

 

That's a much better list! As a proper MechSM player that first IG list you posted shouldn't be giving you any problems.

 

In regards to facing the MechVets list above, you need lots of fast and flexible gun platforms. Land Speeder Typhoons are fantastic here, as they can take out Chimeras with their Kraks, and can then quite reliably take out an entire Infantry Squad each turn with their Frags and HB. Assault marines are good if you can protect them from that nasty LRBT. An Ironclad w/HF inside a drop pod would do wonders here. You can drop in behind the LRBT or CCS and cause havoc.

[Koremu]

The main problem with using a mix of Rhinos and Jump Pack Assault marines is that it gives the IG player a variety of targets to shoot at, and he will inevitably fire whichever weapons are best suited to target. If it's just Rhinos/Razors, you rob him of the ability to use anti-Infantry firepower early in the game.

 

On the other hand, once the Rhinos start popping you'd prefer to have a flood of PA bodies, and Jump Packers keep up well regardless.

[General Retreat]

How about this? (to take some of the best ideas from the thread and stick em together)

 

Chaplain, JP, MB

 

Tactical x 10 RL, MG, PF, RB

Tactical x 10 RL, MG, PF, RB

 

Assault Squad x 10 Flamer x 2, PF

 

Dreadnought, MM, HF, Drop Pod

 

1000 pts

 

 

The Dreadnought drops in on Turn One and goes for some early kills with the MM or HF while the Razorbacks power forward providing rolling cover to the Assault Squad w/ Chaplain. Rocket Launcher teams hold the home objective(s) and lay down some covering fire. Turn Two or Three, your Razorbacks and Assault Squad arrive to relieve the Dreadnought and clean up. Against weakened squads or heavy weapon squads, detach the Chaplain to charge a separate unit. You could also swap the Razorbacks for Rhinos and put a Deathwind Launcher on the Drop Pod and allow for full mech, but I felt like the TL-HB's would be a bigger threat to the Guardsmen.

 

Just my dos centavos.

 

Good Luck!

[minigun762]

It would seem that Whirlwinds are tailor made to be a cheap counter to IG gunlines.

You're wounding on 2's with the main missile or 3's and no cover save with the alternate. Add in the chance to pin their HWS or force them to run away (only LD7)

 

In fact a Dakka Predator and Whirlwind seem like a nice cheap addition.

[Brother Captain Josef]

I like your list General Retreat. A nice 'get-up-there-and-kick-his-teeth-in' approach which should do the trick without too much hassle.

 

I would take Rhinos over RB so you can stick deathwind m/launcher on the drop pod and you don't have to combat squad stuff if you playing a kill point game. Additionally if you gonna rhino rush him having the HB is pointless as you can't move 12" and fire, negating their effectivness as your whole objective is to close on him fast. You can still always leave a combat squad in your deployment zone if you are playing objectives anyways.

 

The deathwind also means he cannot ignore the drop pod which will force him to make a difficult decision when it comes to targets with those las cannons.

 

Happy stomping :)

[General Retreat]

Yeah, on reflection, you're right, Rhino's and a Deathwind Launcher would be a better way to go. The list has very little armor saturation compared to the number of lascannons and autocannons in the IG list. Slowing down to 6" a turn to shoot would be too much of a waste.

[Grand Master Molusc]

Warning: mega post ahead

 

So we had our 1k battle.

 

He went for a variation on the gunline -

 

CCS	4 sniper
master of ord

marbo	

platoon command	
infantry squad	autocannon, melta, power wep, melta bomb
infantry squad	autocannon, melta, power wep, melta bomb
commisar	power wep

platoon command	
infantry squad	autocannon, melta, power wep, melta bomb
infantry squad	autocannon, melta, power wep, melta bomb
commisar	power wep

storm troopers	hotshots, 2 meltas, airborne assault(rerollable deep strike scatter)

leman russ

 

I settled for a list very similar to general retreats _{ok i shamelessly stole it and passed it off as my own}

 

We went for a random mission and deploy from the rulebook. Ended up being a 4 objective pitched battle.

 

Turn 1

I get first turn. Combat squaded the tacs (2 troops in a 4 obj game seemed unwise). The heavy weps sat on 1 objective and were within running range of another, both in 4+ cover.

 

Ass & Razorback pegged it forwards, and the dread drop podded in. It scattered so its flamer was out of range of the gunline, but its MM could still hit the leman russ.

 

shooting wise all that could fire was the dread and 1 unmoved combat squad. combat removed the heavy bolter off the LR hull, dread MMed it, and stunned the crew.

 

IG turn 1

 

The gunline opened up. He had mobbed up his squads, and gave them "take it down" orders on the 2 razorbacks. they both went pop but the troops inside were unhurt, albeit more than 12" from his line. Completely ignore the dread (?!?). CCS snipers began their incompetent streak, hit nothing in the ass squad, but the orb bombard scattered and took out 3 of the 11 jumpackers.

 

 

Turn 2

Being more than 12" away was a pickle. On the other hand I knew the assault troops would be able to assault this turn, tying up half the firepower. With that in mind I decided to ignore 1 squad for shooting, and focus fire on the 2nd squad. The dread would see if the ML combats at the back had disabled the leman for another turn before decided who to kill.

 

Moved all forwards, dread in flamer or MM range (conversely he was now in range of those melta bombs and melta guns... if they got out of the difficult terrain. I figured hed shoot his guns)

 

Shooting wise, I began with the ML combats at the back. russ got stunned again (why won’t you die? :*( )

melta combats at the front opened up on 1 of the squads, but ofc they had cover saves. killed off 6 of the 20.

dread flames them, kills off another 4. Commisar executes the sarge and they hold! Upside is that’s a power wep gone.

 

Assault marines assault. 11 men are slaughtered. Then I realise the 6 power weapon attacks may hurt. 3 jumpackers go down. 7 is now 4 plus chap! They hold (damned commisars)

 

IG turn 2

 

Luck of the dice gods, both his DSers come in! I'm now in danger of getting pummelled.

 

but first orders: "take it down" on the dread from the remnant of the inf squad. dread is stunned through 2 TL autocannons and 2 TL meltas. (lucky eh?)

 

Marbo, the git, demo charges one of the 5 man combat squads and is in range to charge the dread next turn with his melta bombs. Then it scatters, kills 4 of the combat and marbo. decided to preserve the power fist sarge.

 

storm troopers arrive, within rapid fire range of the 2nd combat and the assault marines if they finish off the troops next turn. erk. 2nd combat squad is obliterated. 14 AP 3 shots and 2 meltas...

 

command squad try to kill the power fist guy, the snipers all miss (again), and the artillery bombard scatters off.... onto where marbo would have been had he not demo charged himself anyway!

 

Assault: Assault marines wipe out all but the commissar and sarge, in return i now have 2 assault marines and the chaplain.

 

turn 2 sitrep

 

Things are looking dire. end of turn 2 at least 2 more to go, half the troops are gone. On the other hand I have a assault squad chomping his lines, and that dread isn’t dead if stunned. Also still hold 2 objectives.

He’s lost a lot of his troops but I can see the assault troops finishing off the squad in my turn then him unloading the storm troopers into them. Leman russ STILL isn’t dead

 

turn 3

 

I need to finish off these troops quickly and move onto the stormtroopers – in melee they’re just like normal guardsmen. I take a gamble and walk the dread to the stormtroopers, ready to shoot and then assault to tie them up so my jumpackers don’t die

 

very little other movement. power fist guy wonders over to the half strength troop squad. unsure if he’s in charge range.

 

Pew pew, dread flames stormies, 4 go down. MM misses. He takes the ones nearest the dread away.... i think i just F*ed up --> dread cant assault now

 

In hindsight we realised the dead was stunned. These things happen, wed taken a break at the end of turn 2, and we'd both forgotten

assault: assault marines finish of the squad, but are at least sitting in cover.

 

IG turn 3

The leman russ can shoot and move for the first time! (this is when we realised the dread was supposed to be stunned. Decided not to go back and fix: that’s the start of a long slippery slope).

 

It rolls forward 6” to get a good shot on the guys hiding at the back.

 

He sends his 2 bare platoon commands forwards to his objectives.

 

IG player has a conundrum. He has 3 enemy units in front of him, and only 2 effective shooting squads. The command squads are full of lasguns and useless snipers. Battle cannon too dangerous at this range.

 

He decided to back off the stormtroopers and shoot the dread, heavy wepon the assault troops, and lasgun the power fist. The leman goes for 1 of the squads at the back.

 

Dread has both its arms blown off, assault troops are down to a 1 wound chaplain, AND THE POWER FIST LIVES! (yes the snipers missed. Hes now threatening to burn the snipers later outside). Decided not to use the artillery man due to 3d6 scatter and proximity to his troops

 

Leman russ scatters and hits nowt.

 

turn 4

 

Potentially the last turn of the game.

Technically im winning, but im in a very tenuous position. Time to tie up his troops! Power fist moves to assault the 2nd troop squad along with the chap. I’d like to tie up the storm troopers in assault but theyre playing cat and mouse with the dread.

 

2 squads at the back fire missiles at the command squads running out to get the objectives, take down 1 from each (frag scatter...) but its not the 25% so no morale test. I should have shot them at the same one in hindsight. Was hoping the bolters were in range.

 

Assault: dread isn’t in range of stormtroopers, the chap and power fist go for the last infantry squad. Chap kills 3, power swords kill him and power fist before he can hit. Damn.

 

IG turn 4

He’s now got to get objectives as the game may end.

 

The command squads sprint, 1 makes it to within 3”, the other doesn’t.

 

As it stands he needs to kill at least 1 squad to pull a draw. And he fires every damn thing at 1 squad. Thats stormtrooper hotshots, 2 autocannons, leman russ battle cannon, 4 snipers (WHO HIT! But don’t wound), artillery barrage, a few lasguns who were in range.

 

End result 1 squad is dead.

 

We roll the dice and game over.

 

 

A draw. 1 more turn and it would have been a loss. The again once you start saying that you can talk about all the dice rolls, DS timings etc.

 

My man of the match: Well the chap ate a lot of men... but the dread drew HUGE amounts of fire for 120pts. soits gotta be the dread

 

IG man of the match: Those commisars for keeping the troops firing and chopping away with the power swords

 

Dear B&C, how did I cock this one up?

[Koremu]

Certainly shows the power of the commissar. You should probably have softened up the Infantry slightly with some ranged firepoower before impact, but your hands were fairly tied on that point.

 

I don't think I would have combat squaded myself, but then again I would have used Rhinos. IMO Combat Squads aren't that useful because they fall down too easily to the kind of massed firepower the IG can muster. Full Squads last in position longer.

[minigun762]

I felt like you might have been over targetting the Leman Russ. Really all you need to do is stun it for the first few turns, then Krak it later in the game.

 

Example was when you fired your ML at it, I would have instead Fragged the infantry.

 

It was hard to tell from your report, but I really would have tried to get my Dread into HtH combat, even if that meant running it and not shooting. 1 Walker would have tied up an infantry blob for the entire game and PW would have meant nothing.

 

I also would have not stopped to shoot your Heavies, I think that squad would have been much more useful up close and personal, beating on Guardsmen with Chainswords.

[Grey Mage]

Against an army like hes been fielding *IE Infantry Heavy IG* Id reccommend the following list idea:

 

Captain- Bike, Relicblade- 165pts.

 

5 Bikes- Attack Bike, 2x MG, MM, MB- 215pts.

Tactical Squad- ML, PG, PW, Rhino- 230pts.

Scout Squad- Powerfist, Meltabombs- 105pts.

 

Land Speeder Storm- HF- 60pts.

Landspeeder- MM, HF- 70pts.

Landspeeder- MM, HF- 70pts.

 

Whirlwind- 85pts.

 

1000pts.

 

Shell him from afar, burn him out, and have 2 units in CC on turn 2 at the latest. Melt his tanks with your speeders or smack them around with a powerfist. The bike swill be horrifying in CC, as wounding on 6's with one attack base gaurdsmen will not be getting him very far, and the captains support will allow you to chew through two squads at once without worrying to much. Scouts are a match for an IG squad twice their number, and the potential for a first turn assault on the unit of your choice is solid gold.

[Grand Master Molusc]

Hmm thanks for the feedback.

 

Impact was quicker than I expected - battle plan got wrecked pretty quick but I think i still kept an overall idea going.

 

I appreciate what your saying about not combat squadding, however if I'd left the objectives bare then in 4 turns i wouldnt have had time to assault him and get back - and if i had completely annihilated the squads on his side i recon he would have been able to run those command guys over.

Who am i gonna prioritise with only 3 independant squads and a dread? the 4 troops and 1 tank blasting me, or a 5 man lasgun squad running about the place?

 

I tried to get the dread into CC. Scatter, stuns and cunning moves by him managed to avoid that happening. also he had melta bombs everywhere.

 

Grey mages army list:

 

I like the look of that. An issue i can see is the light arour - he was drowning in autocannons. Also i didn't know if he was goingt o bring extra tanks. I know he's been making soudsn about putting a chim with every inf squad at 1.5k.

 

 

Which is the next thing I was going to mention. We are planning a 1.5k battle. Again through cunning BS i have weedled his likely list out of him :lol:

 

command sq	regi standard, missile

command sq	regi standard, missile

platoon command	autocannon
infantry squad	autocannon, melta, power sword, melta bomb
chimera	heavy stubber, HK
infantry squad	autocannon, melta, power sword, melta bomb
chimera	heavy stubber, HK
infantry squad	autocannon, melta, power sword, melta bomb
chimera	heavy stubber, HK

platoon command	autocannon
infantry squad	autocannon, melta, power sword, melta bomb
chimera	heavy stubber, HK
infantry squad	autocannon, melta, power sword, melta bomb
chimera	heavy stubber, HK

storm troopers	7 hot shots, 2 meltas, spec ops

veterans	shotguns, 3 melta, melta bombs and demo charge, autocannon
harker	hvy bolter, infiltrate stuff

leman russ

 

things that stand out:

 

lots of armour esp all those chims with 4 weps. he's also avoided the mobbing and commisars incase he has to make a swift move in the transports. instead hes brung company banners for rerollabe leadership. a nice weak point.

 

Hes got 2 infiltrating units that could be quite horrific.

 

On the other hand with so much infantry whirlwind and land speeders would be good. However the mass of 6-7Str weps makes them very fragile.

 

If stuff is in rhino's the chims massive fire is avoided...

 

 

Ofc he could just be psyching me and is planning to bring a leman russes, heavy artillery, melta vets in chims, bane wolves and sentinals force xD

[Grey Mage]

Perhaps then you should just concentrate on building a very solid well rounding 1500pt force, and what he brings be damned.

[Grand Master Molusc]

Perhaps then you should just concentrate on building a very solid well rounding 1500pt force, and what he brings be damned.

 

Aye Aye, I get the impression hes feeling for a response fomr me - what I'll bring. I see your lies :lol:

[General Retreat]

I settled for a list very similar to general retreats _{ok i shamelessly stole it and passed it off as my own}

 

 

HAHAH! Very nice, Sigged!

 

Too bad it didn't work out a bit better for ya. Try the Rhino/Deathwind option next time, maybe. I'm a big fan of Razorbacks and Combat Squads, but it can work out against you, too. Glad to hear you were able to hold him to a draw at least. I find that in 1000 point games the whole thing can turn 180 degrees with just a few good/bad rolls. As you move up in points, the rolling vagaries tend to smooth out.

 

I agree with the Dread MVP. I've been using that exact set-up since the codex came out, and never been disappointed. Simple, cheap, and too effective to ignore.