Sternguard vs. Legion of the Damned

[Kyznetsovich]

So I've kinda been debating which would be better, Sternguard or Legion of the Damned. While I currently run Sternguard and enjoy them, I'm thinking Legion might be better since they are just shy of being terminator tough. Any tips or comments on this?

[spartan249]

It mostly depends on who you fight. Against the Plasma Cannon/Meltagun spam I did in 4th and do in 5th, Legion of the Damned would live longer but kill slower. Against Dakkafests with AP4 and above, Sternguard outperform.

[ShinyRhino]

As Spartan said, they fill different roles, which makes it harder to choose.

I've always said (and will continue to say) that Sternguard are a defensive, static unit. Their ammo variety allows them to take on any threat at a variety of ranges. This is best used from a defensive position. Pour fire into your enemy with various ammo types until they're wiped out, or vulnerable to a charge.

Legion are more of a fickle, reactionary force. You have to deep strike them, and once they land, they're slow-movers. This is balanced by their Relentless rule, which allows you to take things like Heavy Bolters or Multimeltas and fire on arrival, and in following turns after moving. There's no reason to drop these guys in your own defensive zone, unless you're being overrun.

Some folks will tell you to take 10 man Sternguard squads in a Drop Pod, with a bunch of combimeltas for some sort of alpha strike throwaway trash unit. I've never been a fan of this treatment of veteran Marines. Yes, it mimics some of the ability of a Legion squad, but costs you an extra killpoint (for the Pod) in an Annihilation mission, and is less durable to retaliatory incoming fire. Sternguard fresh out of a Pod are magnets for las/plas/Battlecannon fire, which will kill them outright. Legion at least get a 3++ save.

 

My opinion is biased, though. I prefer Legion for fluff reasons. ;)

[Kyznetsovich]

Yeah, I think against the crowd I normally face Legion might be better. I play alot of IG gun line players. They Simply fill their deployment zones with tanks and infantry and as soon as you get close enough to kill the first line of guys you hear, "First rank fire, Second rank fire!".

 

I see what you mean about Sternguard being a defensive unit. I'm gonna start converting another unit of them with just fancy old bolters and maybe a heavy bolter or two for defensive purposes, but as of now I play my five Sternguard as tank busters with melta weapons.

[General Retreat]

I really like the LotD, too. The two (fairly) obvious uses I can see for them is a) tank busters, or :( horde flamers. I'm thinking they might be efficiently used in a 6-man squad with Multi-melta/Meltagun/Combi-Melta, or Heavy Flamer/Flamer/Combi-Flamer.

 

You can go for the dangerous deep-strike positions with a bit more confidence with them, and you can put them down in a hot-spot, hoping to soak up big chunks of enemy fire with the 3++ save. They could later be used as a tarpit assault unit against a power-weapon squad (like Banshees or Honor Guard). They won't be thrilling you with combat resolution, but they won't fold to a single Banshee charge like a tactical squad. They have the same invulnerable save as the much-loved Storm Shield. Seems to me like you can drop them into the same type situation as the TH/SS Terminators, but when shooting would be more benificial than assault. Maybe they would do best as the shooting support unit to TH/SS Termies, since they can be dropped in to the same hot zone with a chance to survive.

[ShinyRhino]

Yeah, I think against the crowd I normally face Legion might be better. I play alot of IG gun line players. They Simply fill their deployment zones with tanks and infantry and as soon as you get close enough to kill the first line of guys you hear, "First rank fire, Second rank fire!".

 

This is the dangerous part for Legion squads. Massed small-arms fire. Theytake wounds just like normal Marines, and still only have a 3++ save. Stack enough lasgun shots on them, and they WILL go down.

[Xeonic]

I don't know about you, but I love the idea of a relentless plasma cannon or lascannon that doesn't have to hug cover to be effective.

Still, most of the time I'd take sternguard as a general close fire support option over legion, mostly due to transport options and overall firepower.

[LardO'Blood]

The 2 major advantages LotD have over sternguard are deep striking and 3+ invulnerable. Against an army like Orks the invulnerable save wont make much of a difference, if you're playing necrons the invulnerable will make a difference. It all depends on the army, a better question would be LotD vs. Terminators. I would say terminators because of close combat abilities and if they are TH/SS you have 3+ invulnerable and a 2+ armor save as opposed to the LotD's 3+ armor and invulnerable save. They would however as General Retreat said make excellent backup for terminators.

[Xeonic]

The orks in the area you play at don't have powerklaw nobs on every squad? ;)

I'd just like to point out that there's only one power weapon in the necron codex, and most everyone takes the cheap as chips upgrade to make it ignore invulnerable saves(which c'tan already do, and so do pariahs). Flayed ones muddle through with volume of attacks, and wraiths hope to survive with very powerful(but not powerweapon) attacks and a hefty invulnerable of their own.

The only three weapons in the Necron codex that benefit an invuln save are lords with staff of light(AP3 and a power weapon, but most people take the cheap up to make it ignore invulns anyways), hvy destroyer(not exactly numerous), and particle whip(AP3 w/short 24" range, can't use and reroll WBB).

 

Though I'm a little undecided on LoTD, I think I'll pick up a 5 man squad of the new models and use them vs other marines/chaos marines though(I'll probably convert a PC for them ofc). Not only are the new models friggen fantastic, they have quite awesome fluff associated with them. ^_^

For me that's enough to take them.

[spartan249]

Legion of the damned don't have any armor save. Unyielding Spectres states that their saving throw is invulnerable, which means that the 3++ is a modified armor save, not an additional invul save. Because of this, Psycannons WILL ignore LotD saves. Out of the friggin frying pan...

[Duce]

For me its sternguard hands down, cheaper in points mostly, and their ammo is more useful to me than a inv save. Though both sets fo models do look nice.

[Giga]

I'll go out and say Sternguard are pretty much always better.

 

This is mainly due to the fact Legion of the Damned are way overpriced for what they do. They're basically just tactical marines with an invulnerable save. Sure, they can get some move-and-shoot multimeltas and the like, but I just don't think that's quite enough to make them good. Certainly nowhere near as good as sternguard.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The chief problem for LotD is they are just 3+ invul Tac Marines with Relentless. As such, they will still die to massed fire, which is the preferred way of killing Marines nowadays (because of increased cover). As someone else pointed out, FRFSRF will kill them just as surely as a much cheaper (and scoring) Tactical squad.

 

By comparison, Sternguard bring their special ammo, improved close-combat ability, LD10, two heavy/special weapons+combi-weapons, and of course the ability to score provided Kantor is in the army. They can also buy a Rhino and deploy normally, unlike LotD who have to Deepstrike. It's not really a fair comparison IMO, Sternguard are far superior (I would argue Sternguard are in fact better than Tactical Terminators in many ways).

[Xeonic]

The only way sternguard are better in CC is because they're more mobile(transport, not slow and purposeful).

LoTD are relentless, so they can fire all weapons+ assault.

They have 2 base attacks(as sternguard).

Their sergeant is WS5.(!!!)

 

I agree they die to massed fire...but what doesn't?

The fact that they get their save irrespective of if or not it's a lasgun or lascannon aimed at them is enough in my book. :cuss

 

EDIT: they're also LD10 fearless, and in CC they don't need to fear power weapons.

[Kyznetsovich]

I like the idea about running them as support for my TH/SS Termies but it's kind of a big investment in points. Besides, I already run my termies around in a Land Raider Redeemer. Since the person I play most often is my friend who uses Tyranids. He likes to play Nidzilla, and prefers the Godfex setup. I played him yesterday and my TH/SS termies walked through 3 Godfex's before they were brought low. And I just use the Redeemer to get'm close, the cover them from large squads of hormagaunts.

 

Great information though. Certainly gives me a better idea of what I want to do. I think I'm just gonna stick to my Sternguard for now.

[Sanctjud]

It's not that they simply die to small arms fire. It's that it's more economical for the opponent to kill them that way.

And the majority of weapons in most armies is small arms.

You pay more for fewer MEQs.

 

Fearless is a double edged sword, worse for small squad sized units.

 

WS5 vet is moot.

 

I see them as a niche/fun unit. A niche that really doesn't need their services IMO.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

for we're warring at the game club on sunday afternoon, i think Sternguards are more apporetate(sP), i mean when the marines are cruise'n in on their strike barge... and the Weapon masters/ and lords of tactics are handing out blessed weapons... A vetern getting a bolter with speical issue ammo, is about 1000% more likly to happen.

Then say oh the chances of a near mythical Lost Squad of the Damn, shows up to save your ass from a horde of orks.

i've always felt that Lotd, should and only be part of champain style of playing. either that, or, i guess in a fluffy sense you could justify a Radical Insquistor with 3 daemon hosts and 2 Lotd squads... yeah that's some expenive fluff.

[Justicar Valius]

I can tell you honestly now I would much rather face legion than sternguard. Legion scatter more, have easier to deny saves for us DH (hail inulnerable ignoring weaponary! boo for lack of AP3) and bring less meltas.

 

Also I have never seen a list on this site, even now with the models out, with any legion in.

[Trel]

The LotD have the neatest rules and sound ever-so-sweet until you read their points cost. They are way too expensive for what you get and at all but the highest points costs, you're sacrificing way too much of your army. Sternguard have a broader base of applications and cost less.

 

In nearly all situations I can think of, a squad of Sternguard would be as, if not more, effective than an equally valued LotD squad.

 

If I were to re-write them, I'd give them 4 wounds and no armor save whatsoever. Then, being a little more resistant to massed fire, but still as succeptible to heavy weaponry, they have a different application and address a different need for the Marines.

[Malladrius]

My take on the lotd versus sternguard thing depends on if you can afford the points cost to bring a librarian to give them invul saves and GoI with your sternguard full of combimeltas in a pod. Doing this allows you to wreak havoc, albeit fairly fragile havoc behind enemy lines. I also personally prefer the sternguard because they are much easier to model than lotd and are a good deal more flexible.