A question about Bjorn and Ancient Tactician

[Rindaris]

Ok, so a 2k point tourney is coming up next month and my wife got me a FW dread to use as Bjorn, so I'm really considering fielding it then. But I thought of something in regards to Bjorn's Ancient Tactician ability:

 

Example:

 

Say I roll a 2 and my opponent rolls a 5. I use Bjorn's ability to reroll and get a 5. So we're tied and need to roll again. If I once again roll lower then my opponent, or tie, could I reroll again thanks to Bjorn?

[nurglespuss]

Nope, can't re-roll a die more than once, so, if you choose to use his ability, its been used. the 'draw' result is an effect created by Bjorns rule.

[Oldenhaller]

As you cant re-roll a re-roll I'd say that any further ties after you've made your initial re-roll are just dicing off and therefore cannot be rolled again

 

~O

[stinkenheim]

i agree with oldenhaller.

 

if your opponent rolls a 5 and you roll a 1. you decide to re-roll using bjorns rule and get a 5, you then have to roll off against your opponent(as per the normal rules when the score is tied) but can't re-roll this result if it is worse than your opponents... you could still try to seize the initiative (obviously no re-roll here)

[Arkaniss]

I suppose you could also both roll a 5 then dice off again and you get a 1 while your opponent gets a 5 you could then use the re-roll. However you use it you can never re-roll a re-roll ever. It's a one use at a time thing.

[stinkenheim]

if you tie on the first roll, then you could re-roll it using the ancient tactician rule. this would obviously only be usefull if the initail dice score was low as if your opponent rolled a 5 then chances are you would roll lower. should you tie with the first roll and its a high number (4,5 or 6) then your usually better off going with usual rule of both player roll again...

if the result of the second dice off is also a tie i would probably say that you could then use the AT rule to re-roll the result but some might not agree. the reason i would say you could is that i would treat it as a seperate result andnot a re-roll of the first... i must point out though that i don't take bjorn so this is how i would feel if my opponent did it against me and not what i would expect my opponent to allow me to do without first discussing it.

[Wildfire]

You should discuss it with each opponent before rolling, as not everyone will feel the same way. Personally, I'd say you could reroll every time, but that's me.

[Grey Mage]

The only way it works is if you treat each time you try to roll for the table as a seperate roll... otherwise what happens when you tie twice in a row? *Personally, Ive tied up to five times in a row*.

 

No, you dont both sit there and go "well, crap guess we dont play now" you just make a new roll and roll again. Theres no rerolling rerolls anywhere in the equation.

[Oldenhaller]

Not the case I'm afraid Grey Mage - roll offs are specifically defined as different from rerolls on p.2 of the BRB. For once they've been quite specific in thier wording and it tallies in both the setup and rules section of the book! It states that on a tie both dice are rolled again until one comes up trumps...so yes no re-rolling a re-roll as these are a roll off instead.

 

Interestingly (in my head at any rate) upon a technicality this rule doesn't actually do anything. At no point do you roll to choose who picks deployment, you roll for who goes first. It could be argued that it's a roll for table edge, but not for deployment zone :cuss

 

~O

[Grey Mage]

Not the case I'm afraid Grey Mage - roll offs are specifically defined as different from rerolls on p.2 of the BRB. For once they've been quite specific in thier wording and it tallies in both the setup and rules section of the book! It states that on a tie both dice are rolled again until one comes up trumps...so yes no re-rolling a re-roll as these are a roll off instead.

 

Interestingly (in my head at any rate) upon a technicality this rule doesn't actually do anything. At no point do you roll to choose who picks deployment, you roll for who goes first. It could be argued that it's a roll for table edge, but not for deployment zone :)

 

~O

 

Still this is the wording in the rulebook:

The players roll-off, and the winner chooses to go first or second.

 

There is no mention of subsequent rolls at all.

[Oldenhaller]

yeah - roll off as a term is described earlier in the book on page 2 under re-rolls and roll offs. The rule is;

If the rules require the players to roll off, this simply means that each player rolls a dice and the player highest result wins the roll off. If the players roll the same result, both dice must be rolled again until one player is the winner

As there's no mention of re-rolls in there (cleverly done GW) the bjorn's ancient tactician can only be used once as anything subsequent to it would be a re-roll of a re-roll

 

~O

[Grey Mage]

Ahh but then we get into weird things like "well since we tied the first time can I decide to use my reroll on attempt number 2 instead?"

[Oldenhaller]

Don't see why not as there has by that point not been a re-roll and it doesn't say it has to be the initial roll for turn/board edge/deployment

 

~O

[Grey Mage]

But a reroll is when you pick up the die and roll it again, as per the BRB. They didnt really avoid that logical fallacy if your going as written, theyve just intellegently ignored it.

[nurglespuss]

So basically, as usual common sense wins out, you can use ancient tactician once.

[Stormbrow II]

You re-roll the dice for first turn once as Oldenhaller says.

 

If you really want the first (or second) turn stick an Inquisitor with The Emperor's Tarot in there.

[SamaNagol]

You wouldn't be able to use the re-roll on a roll off if you drew.

 

You can only re-roll your initial dice roll. So if you roll a 6 and he rolls a 6, you're up ish creek.

[stinkenheim]

as i said, im with people who say you get 1 roll on AT regardless of the result of any previous roll offs.

 

basically if you tie 10 times in a row and then on the eleventh you lose, i say you can re-roll your dice... if you tie again then you don't get another AT roll, you can only use that rule once.

 

if you lose thought, well hope you can seize the initiative ^_^

[rahl02]

Ok, so a 2k point tourney is coming up next month and my wife got me a FW dread to use as Bjorn, so I'm really considering fielding it then. But I thought of something in regards to Bjorn's Ancient Tactician ability:

 

Example:

 

Say I roll a 2 and my opponent rolls a 5. I use Bjorn's ability to reroll and get a 5. So we're tied and need to roll again. If I once again roll lower then my opponent, or tie, could I reroll again thanks to Bjorn?

 

 

According to the INATFAQ that was written for adepticon yes, here's the quotes for it:

 

 

+SW.49B.02 – Q: If Bjorn uses „Ancient Tactician‟ to re-roll the dice to go first, and that re-rolled result is a tie between the players. When the players roll yet again to determine who goes first, can „Ancient Tactician‟ now be used again?

A: Yes it can [clarification].

 

From what they think, is when you use ancient tactician and you get a tie. You basically start the process all over as though you hadn't used the ability at all.

 

By what some of you say, that when you tie your "re-rolling" your chance. What happens when you "re-roll" your tie and you get a tie? You "re-roll" it. Well according to the BRB you have just now re-rolled a re-roll, which is a no-no. I don' t know how each of your gaming groups are, but I think EVERY one should have a copy of the INATFAQ with them and then talk about the changes that were addressed within it. Instead of having us all try and use RAW or RAI with in these forums. Because EVERYONE will have their 2cent.

[nurglespuss]

no, you've got a 'roll off' not a 're-roll' - thats the difference.

 

I think i've cemented my stance on not employing that FAQ.

[rahl02]

no, you've got a 'roll off' not a 're-roll' - thats the difference.

 

I think i've cemented my stance on not employing that FAQ.

 

Your still re-rolling on that roll off. What are you doing when you have to pick up a die and roll it again for what ever reason. That my friend is called a re-roll. No matter how you look at it your doing the same thing. If your having to do something again it's "re-whatever it was you were doing". I know where your looking at in the BRB, but it's the exact same thing your re-rolling on a roll off.

 

It seems GW is insisting that all of their "rules" don't matter they contradict themselves time and time again. In that same bullet as saying you cannot re-roll everything they go and and say yes you can. I call BS on the entire rulebook and say make your own rules for the game as you see fit.

[nurglespuss]

Not really, it specifically says roll-off. there are no rules for re-rolling a roll-off, so you simply can't do it. Thats about as 'RAW' [shudder] as it gets really. You have an opportunity to use Bjorns ability (at the initial rolling), you recieve and unfavourable result, you can initiate the ability, if this results in a draw, you both egage in a roll off, until a victor appears (ignoring 'seize the initiative' for now). I think, with the pretty clear rules provided, its as simple as that.

[stinkenheim]

as i have said, i would say the person gets one AT re-roll regardless of how many ties there are, thats how i have always played it (including the similar rule back in the old dex).

[Oldenhaller]

no, you've got a 'roll off' not a 're-roll' - thats the difference.

 

I think i've cemented my stance on not employing that FAQ.

 

My sentiments exactly. As there are specific definitions for Re-Roll and Roll Off which are applied to this then that ruling is just plain wrong

 

Will add this to the FAQ later today

 

~O

[nurglespuss]

Nice one Oldenhaller :)