Venerable with Infernocanon

[Torin]

Good day brother,

 

I was just wondering would it be possible to arm a dred or vendred with an infernocanon an have it droppod into enemy line. Is it legal to use it in normal game since the option is not in our codex. I find infernocanon to be very nasty vs most unit type.

 

Cheers.

[Chodjinn]

if it aint there in the codex, you can't have it. That's why I have an ironclad gathering dust on my shelf . . . lol. You might get away with it in friendly games

[stinkenheim]

am i right in thinking its from one of the Imperial Armour books by forgeworld? if so, i assume its usable in any marine army. some people say you need opponents permission but if i remember right you can take it without as it says you don't need permission at the start of the book.

 

obviously if you do take it you wont be able to give the ven dread a WTN or sagas but hey, thats the price you pay.

[Ullr Direfang]

not sure if you have to ask your oppenent or not but stinkenheim is right, you have to take the dred from the IA book it is in. there for only the options there could be used. i haven't seen an IA book in a while so i can't say what options are available or where they come from. also if you plan to run it, make sure you check rules for any tournaments you plan to play in. around here the FW models are allowed but IA rules/vehicle options are not.

[Grey Mage]

Its not in IA Update, but Id probly let you have it for +10pts because of the short range.... so talk it over with your buddies, and be nice about it.

 

Dont expect to bring it to a tournament though... cool idea, but no way to standardize the rules as of yet.

[Torin]

well that the thing, they have all sort of weapons in forgeworld but its not integrated together with 40k. I think GW should clerify these rules to avoid confusion. Like GM said "Dont expect to bring it to a tournament though". But would be nice to have it in normal games i would say. But they seem to have the rules and points for a pair of TL autocanon though.

[nurglespuss]

Or, just use it to represent twin linked heavy flamer arm for now, until you get the IA book. once you have that, you can use it (as Stinky says), but, again, not neccesarily in tournaments.

[LPetersson]

am i right in thinking its from one of the Imperial Armour books by forgeworld? if so, i assume its usable in any marine army. some people say you need opponents permission but if i remember right you can take it without as it says you don't need permission at the start of the book.

 

obviously if you do take it you wont be able to give the ven dread a WTN or sagas but hey, thats the price you pay.

 

If it's not in the Codex, then permission is needed. Pretty simple really.

 

If someone rocked up and started pulling IA rules out without asking me first I'd laugh at them first, and then wait patiently until they put a list together without IA stuff in it.

Or let them wait while I put together a list with IA models...

[stinkenheim]

this is from the introduction to the IA books. Im paraphrasing a bit on some of it but tis fundamentaly the same.

 

'... The rules here are (like the vhiles they cover) mostly variants of the codex versions. A pred is still pred regardless of mark and the codex rules apply. From my feedback it seems players have no difficulty including these IA variants in their games, its only when it comes to new models that problems of legality occur. The very idea that some are 'legal' and others not seems odd to me. All the vehicles n this book exist in 40k and are used against the Emperors foes. Its not a case of legality its an actuality. generally players should not pick and choose what equipment their opponent can and can't use. The idea that an Ork or Eldar could object to a land raider helios or tarantula sentry gun is strange.

In the past we have advised people to seek permission but this seems an unsatisfactory solution. Of course you need your opponents permission to play ny game, unless you intend to force people to play you. Eldar players don't feel they need permission to field an avatar, although each craftworld has just one, only woken in dire need. Using opponents permission system I believe too often people object feeling their opponent is getting an unfair advantage, which is nonsense. By all means ask permission, but how is it different to organising any game? Your opponent is, by agreeing to play you, giving you permission to use miniatures in your collection...'

 

The only forgeworld stuff you need permission for is the experimental rules as they haven't be playtested as much and are sometimes still quite off in what the do. The only FW models that i think give the opponent any real advantages are things like the titans and the special drop pod which is an assault vehicle for dreanaughts. the others are pretty tame in most respects and aren't that powerful, certainly no more than some of the options available in most new codexes. the plasma leman russ for example got a massive boost compared to the IA version and yet according to most of you I would need permission to play the weaker version.

At the end of the day it is simply a weapon option for an existing vehicl, is not massivly overpowered and limits the user to the upgrades he can purchase for the vehicle.

I have played many games againt people using IA things without permission and there has never been an issue as far as I am concerned. in fact I welcom the diversity it brings as it means we aren't just seeing the same cookie cutter army week in week out.

[nurglespuss]

Thats the whole point, permission is now no longer needed, thanks to the wording of the current IA books, whether its in codex or not. :)

[LPetersson]

this is from the introduction to the IA books. Im paraphrasing a bit on some of it but tis fundamentaly the same.

 

'... The rules here are (like the vhiles they cover) mostly variants of the codex versions. A pred is still pred regardless of mark and the codex rules apply. From my feedback it seems players have no difficulty including these IA variants in their games, its only when it comes to new models that problems of legality occur. The very idea that some are 'legal' and others not seems odd to me. All the vehicles n this book exist in 40k and are used against the Emperors foes. Its not a case of legality its an actuality. generally players should not pick and choose what equipment their opponent can and can't use. The idea that an Ork or Eldar could object to a land raider helios or tarantula sentry gun is strange.

In the past we have advised people to seek permission but this seems an unsatisfactory solution. Of course you need your opponents permission to play ny game, unless you intend to force people to play you. Eldar players don't feel they need permission to field an avatar, although each craftworld has just one, only woken in dire need. Using opponents permission system I believe too often people object feeling their opponent is getting an unfair advantage, which is nonsense. By all means ask permission, but how is it different to organising any game? Your opponent is, by agreeing to play you, giving you permission to use miniatures in your collection...'

 

The only forgeworld stuff you need permission for is the experimental rules as they haven't be playtested as much and are sometimes still quite off in what the do. The only FW models that i think give the opponent any real advantages are things like the titans and the special drop pod which is an assault vehicle for dreanaughts. the others are pretty tame in most respects and aren't that powerful, certainly no more than some of the options available in most new codexes. the plasma leman russ for example got a massive boost compared to the IA version and yet according to most of you I would need permission to play the weaker version.

At the end of the day it is simply a weapon option for an existing vehicl, is not massivly overpowered and limits the user to the upgrades he can purchase for the vehicle.

I have played many games againt people using IA things without permission and there has never been an issue as far as I am concerned. in fact I welcom the diversity it brings as it means we aren't just seeing the same cookie cutter army week in week out.

 

I have one word for that: Rubbish!

 

Their example of the Eldar Avatar is laughably weak. Is the Eldar Avatar in their codex? Yes. So they can field it...

 

I don't particularly care what the IA book says about permission. If it's not in the BRB or the army's relevant codex, it requires permission.

Not everyone can afford the cost of IA books or are even aware of them whereas everyone need their codex to play.

 

And it's funny you mention the assault drop pods, as those are exactly what I would like to use.

 

In short, IA is hardly standard issue, I have a hard time imagining that the drop pods where even playtested, and my previous comments stand.

Otherwise it's like bringing a knife to a gun fight, your opponent suddenly has a huge advantage.

 

I would like to use the IA rules, but as far as I'm concerned, it requires permission, and not surprisingly, not many people seem comfortably with that given that they don't seem that well tested.

 

Oh, and do tourneys normally allow IA rules?

[the jeske]

Oh, and do tourneys normally allow IA rules?

close to never. UK ones did allow it once , but they no longer do . I dont know about US , locals are different , but GT or same sized tournaments didnt.

[stinkenheim]

well looks like we have to agree to disagree thee as in my opinion, both using and playing against IA, they are not overpowered or gamebreaking and generally seem to have better balance than alot of things in current codexes Obviously there are always going to be things which seem gamebreaking or ovepowered but ultimately its the same regardless of the source of the rules.

 

I would not stop someone using them as i have already said, indeed should they wish to use it then i would welcome it and hope i could meet the challenge of stopping a unit/vehicle/model that I haven't fought against before.

there are also a few things which GW have taken from FW and incorporated into their codexes (take the morits pattern dreads- those with two twin linked autocannons- they were originally FW variants available only to DA and their successors)...

 

either way, i think its quite a sad situation that you have where because your friends or opponents are too scared to allow you to use themyou feel that no one is able to use them against you. i dont mean to sound like im insulting you there, but i honestly feel if you had palyed against them you would realise that on the whole they are overcosted and not too great.

 

yeah IA may not be standard issue, but then neither is calgar/lysander/avatars/typhus etc yet if you were to play against say 10 people with that respective army (marine/eldar etc) then chances are there would be alot of the lists that contained them. Im fairly certain there are more inferno cannon armed dreads in the imperium than there are calgars for instance.

The whole legality/permission arguement is much like the old system of IC needing permission where if playersw were worried about facing one they would simply refuse to allow them to be used despite them being in the codex. it is simply an issue of people fearing the unknown and thinking they are far more powerful than they are.

 

as ofr tournaments, i wouldn' know as i havent entered any and the mindset of tournament players is alien to me as i play to have fun with my friends and dont try to min-max my army to win at all costs. its also worth noting that some tournaments allow different things to others it depends on the organisers at the end of the day.

 

Hopefully my friend should get his megadread soon and then itwill be a regular thing in our games, am I scared no, i look forward to playing against it as it is a great model and seems like it has fun rules. would I stop someone from using a model because I wasn't sure what it could do, no, i would welcome it for expanding my knowledge of the game and forcing me to try different tactics.

 

All in all, if you played against me i would never have a problem and i think its a shame when people try and prevent you using certain models out of fear of them. Its a game at the end of the day, if you lose then it doesn't matter. if you feel the unit in question is too overpowered then talk to your opponent about it, make a houserule, maybe increase its cost or simply ask them not to take it as you feel its overpowered but dont dismiss it out of hand without actually seeing what they are like.

[Wispy]

I would never expect to be allowed to take IA stuff in tourny games, but club and LGS games? More power to you! No one can stop you and the worst your opponent can say is "I won't play with you under those conditions." If they're going to be unreasonable about that, then well... you sound like the kind of guy that wouldn't have much fun with that kind of opponent anyways.

 

edit that said: If you're going to be using IA rules on your stuff, at least have the courtesy to have the actual intended models and IA book on hand. Goes a long way to smooth over players who might not be so reasonable about IA stuff.

[Grey Mage]

1) While they may encourage you to use them with or without opponents consent- but they dont actually give you permission to have them in any battle.

2) They are not GW. They are a company owned by them, but that is not the same thing- Dawn of War may encourage players to bring 10 Tactical Squads to the battle along with six dreadnaughts but that doesnt mean you can do it in 40k.

3) Its rude. No different than bringing apocalypse formations to a fight, or deciding that its planetstrike and throwing down some bastions without talking to your opponent. Its simply bad form.

4) My copy of the Taros Campaign, and the seige of Vraks my friend here has, says nothing of the sort. They both explicitly talk about how this is a fun and flavorful book, and the lists inside are not nessecairily eyed for balance so your opponent should be consulted.

5) Tournaments do not allow them unless specificly stated- much like extra detachments, multiple codices, or titans.

 

So why on earth would you think that you can just walk into my basement on the invitation of our mutual friend to play a game and throw down IA without a so much as a "hey, I have something cool mind if I use it?".

 

I dont feel its much to ask. I dont even nessecairily want to know what the unit is exactly... just the book, that you have said book with you, and that its not a superheavy.

 

And Ill think alot less of you if you didnt have the courtesy to ask, and Itll be a while before I invite you back to be sure.

[Vlk]

Oh, and do tourneys normally allow IA rules?

close to never. UK ones did allow it once , but they no longer do . I dont know about US , locals are different , but GT or same sized tournaments didnt.

 

 

Well, not that it's of any use for you guys from USA and UK, but the biggest tournament here in Prague allows IA goodies... I'm thinking of buying myself some kinde of a drop-podish treat .)

[Evilbob]

I have to admit, I'm rather surprised at people getting kinda upset over a simple question. Forge World stuff is all very cool, and very expensive, and just adds a little depth and flavor to armies. In tournies (which I tend to avoid like a plague) you can't use the stuff, sure. But I own so much Space Wolf crap that some of it I don't plan on ever using. I just like how it looks, or it was a challenge to paint or assemble. If you go to a new store or show up at a gaming group you're not familiar with (aka someone invites you over to a friend's basement) you should probably ask permission just so you don't seem like a jerk. And even if they don't let you use it, they'll probably want to look at it and fuss over cuz it looks cool and they might not have seen that particular model up close before. In your individual game group, you've most likely been friends with those people for a while and have a general set of guidelines for what you play on a regular basis and will make your own rulings of what they want or don't want on the tables. My group for example didn't like using Forge World stuff at first. Mainly cuz if you could afford it, we hated you lol. We assumed that because it cost more than GW stuff it just HAD to be better. Not always true. We're all older now and make some decent money, so many of us have different FW models and love to use them just because we've been playing for years and it's a great variety to come up against models with new, cool rules or that just plain look kick ass with standard codex rules.

[Wildfire]

Thats the whole point, permission is now no longer needed, thanks to the wording of the current IA books, whether its in codex or not. :)

 

LOL! Not true at all. That's like saying I can make a homebrew codex and so long as I put in the words "doesn't need opponents permission" you have no say in it. Otherwise I'm playing every game with this:

 

Wildfire's Homebrew Marine Codex (may be used regardless of oppenent's wishes or tourney restrictions).

 

Unit type: Win Button

Cost: 1 point

Effect: Wildfire Wins

[nurglespuss]

wildfire, see the quoted section above, there is no argument.

[Torin]

Well guy from what i see, it not a problem using Forgeworld model for our games. But for the sake of sportmanship, just ask your opponent if he is comfortable with you using FW model. There is no harm if he says no. But IMO a player who want to improve his gameplay, he must find tougher opponent only then can he improve. Its all about having fun guys. Doesnt matter if the book says you dont need permission or not. Just be a sport an ask your opponent out of respect. May each fight end with a jug of ale.

 

cheers.

[Wildfire]

wildfire, see the quoted section above, there is no argument.

 

I did look at the quote. If you believe that is valid, then you must also agree it that my homebrew codex above, as it has the same comment. You'll get tired of me winning eventually.

[Grey Mage]

wildfire, see the quoted section above, there is no argument.

Yeah, there is- theyre not GW, they have no say in the matter, and they can encourage you all they want.

 

Heck,Ive encouraged players before to count the cat as a superheavy walker with AV 20 and 7 structure points with six D strength weapons... it doesnt mean squat.

[nurglespuss]

Wildfire & Grey Mage:

 

Unfortunately, both wrong in different ways: unlike a 'home brew' codex, forge world prublications are made with GW endorsement/permission, and utilise the extant copywrites owned by GW, and this is recorded in their publications, so that fails that misguided argument.

[Wispy]

Forge World is GW. They're a separate studio from their mainstream models, sure, but they're actually kicking ass in the exact same giant building in Nottingham as everything else.

[LPetersson]

wildfire, see the quoted section above, there is no argument.

Yeah, there is- theyre not GW, they have no say in the matter, and they can encourage you all they want.

 

Heck,Ive encouraged players before to count the cat as a superheavy walker with AV 20 and 7 structure points with six D strength weapons... it doesnt mean squat.

 

I have tried to get my friend to agree that his cat is a gargantuan creature, and if she jumps up on the table she destroys what she knocks over :-D

 

Forge World =/= GW. They're a separate studio from their mainstream models, sure, but they're actually kicking ass in the exact same giant building in Nottingham as everything else.

 

See what I did there? I highlighted the important bit...

Until it says in the Codices and/or BRB that you can take stuff from IA without permission you can't...

 

Of course, if you live in London and fancy a game, feel free to let me know and we'll see how you feel about those Venerable Dreadnoughts in Assault Drop Pods.

And is there anyone who will seriously claim that they were playtested?