Two Unknown Legions

[SamaNagol]

There's reference to the only other time all the Primarchs were gathered together before Ullanor and Horus' ascension to Warmaster as something they 'swore never to speak of again' in A Thousand Sons.

[Vas'Drakken]

I love this topic and I hope GW does one day; either admit they did not want to confuse II and 11 or finish the fluff.

 

But here are a few other things one the canister is broken but that does not necessarily equal dead, he could have

just been deformed due to early birth, struggled through life claimed his legion and failed when push came to shove

ie temped by chaos to make his life easier or just make the pain go away, who knows.

 

The other thing is the Grey Knights could be the other order and he is stored in a vault somewhere which goes

against what the Primarchs would want for themselves.

[The emperors chosen]

The Grey Knights are not a missing legion, the DH codex, and GW have both said that they were founded after the heresy

[Verythrax Draconis]

My 2, dirty, torn cents:

 

Possibility one: when is mentioned that "fully half" of legions felt to Chaos, maybe it's just nine - the 2 missing legions fought the Crusade, but we don't know if they were still around at the time the Heresy happened;

 

Possibility two: maybe the felt for the Chaos long time before the Heresy, and the Emperor himself deleted all info on them, since he wanted to keep all the remaining legions unaware of Chaos. By the time the Heresy happened, they weren't counted, cause they didn't "existed" anymore. If that's the case, I think the legions were completely wiped out. The "their separated tragedies was a warning, maybe" makes me think that at least one legion went Chaos before - and the Emperor didn't took the correct measures to keep the SMs protected from it. If their tragedies were really "separate", I would bet on mutation or alien friendship for the second legion.

 

Someone mentioned that they could not have gone mutinous, cause "brother never fought a brother before". I disagree, Never a brother fought a brother, AS FAR AS THE SMs KNOW. Maybe the Emperor just mentioned that something unspeakable happened to these legions, and that's it. It can even be one of the reasons Horus lost his faith in the Emperor, since he lied to him (and all marines).

[David the Despoiler]

That may be one of the reasons why the Emperor is so resolutely against Magnus dabbling in his Sorceries, he doesn't want a repeat of the past. Maybe their fall to Chaos was an accident, and Dorn only found out during the refurbishing of Terra because he asked dear old dad during some quality father son time.

[MajorKhaos]

It's really quite simple.

 

The two unknown Legions are there as placeholders for GW to use when they decide to make a decent MMOFPS game. The can have one on each side, with both legions having come across a way to ressurect / respawn players on a Daemon World. Either in a Order / Chaos fight, or just two factions slugging it out for eternity.

 

...possibly call the game Warhammer: Horus Heresy.

 

 

EDIT: GW can them make a shed load off the merchandising aspect of the game and tie it in to the Tabletop. Something they completely forgot to do with Warhammer Online.

[Simonius]

I posted this in another discussion of the same subject not long ago:

 

In reality (such as it is), even GW doesn't know what has happened to them. In the HH books they are dropping some fairly non-specific hints that don't really close or open any doors while they try to think up something good enough to satisfy the curious.

 

In universe, we need to be logical in our deductions, as far as we can, but we don't have enough information to draw any conclusions yet.

 

What can we say then.

 

According to fluff;

 

1. They WERE found - an assumption can be made that they were probably found quite early on in the Great Crusade as we have references/hints that they've been gone a while.

2. They WERE reunited with their legions - remember the legions existed before the Primarchs were found, the Emperor had all twenty of them with him at the start of the crusade made from the gene seed of their Primarchs but of Terran blood.

3. Conflicting fluff that they fought or didn't in the HH, the more recent being that they didn't participate in the Heresy but they DID participate in the Great Crusade at some point - now is this the legion, or the legion and their Primarch? Can't answer that as yet.

4. They are "lost" to us - Malcador's statement to Dorn's musing. This is the beauty of the english language as it is open to a number of interpretations entirely dependent on how each individual reads it. It is certainly not a definitive statement on whether they are gone, missing, dead, traitors, or whatever.

5. Something different happened to each of them - definitive statement of their "seperate" tragedies. Again tragedy can be interpreted in many different ways.

6. Were they forewarnings of what was to come? - Uncertain, as even Dorn who is thinking this is uncertain. Open ended musing is available on this with possible rebellion being top of the shop for at least one Primarch but not both due to the seperate thing above.

7. Destroyed by the Emperor for 6 above - Possible, but it is highly unlikely (but not absolutely impossible) that any space marine v space marine conflict took place, given how unthinkable various characters thoughts are on this. Although worth noting that these are not ever Primarch thoughts. (Just had a thought - maybe Horus found it easier to order marine v marine conflict as it was he who had gotten rid of one of his brothers). This does not rule out any other Imperial destruction of said Primarch and legion, say by the Custodes. Not likely to be Imperial Army though as this would have wider conotations in morale and keeping quiet about it terms.

 

I have ignored anything about Rubinek, Sigmar, gender and all that stuff as it has been either rewritten or denied by GW - but its your choice to believe it or not until they answer all the questions.

 

So we don't know a lot really, do we? I expect more veiled hints in future HH books, but I don't expect any of them to actually answer the question, they'll still be open ended. Until the day when someone in GW or a BL author comes up with an idea for them that is so astounding brilliant that everyone will be satisfied, happy and warmly content. Until then - happy debating, but none of us (including me) have a right answer, just occasionally some that are more wrong than others.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I posted this in another discussion of the same subject not long ago:

 

In reality (such as it is), even GW doesn't know what has happened to them. In the HH books they are dropping some fairly non-specific hints that don't really close or open any doors while they try to think up something good enough to satisfy the curious.

 

In universe, we need to be logical in our deductions, as far as we can, but we don't have enough information to draw any conclusions yet.

 

What can we say then.

 

According to fluff;

 

1. They WERE found - an assumption can be made that they were probably found quite early on in the Great Crusade as we have references/hints that they've been gone a while.

2. They WERE reunited with their legions - remember the legions existed before the Primarchs were found, the Emperor had all twenty of them with him at the start of the crusade made from the gene seed of their Primarchs but of Terran blood.

3. Conflicting fluff that they fought or didn't in the HH, the more recent being that they didn't participate in the Heresy but they DID participate in the Great Crusade at some point - now is this the legion, or the legion and their Primarch? Can't answer that as yet.

4. They are "lost" to us - Malcador's statement to Dorn's musing. This is the beauty of the english language as it is open to a number of interpretations entirely dependent on how each individual reads it. It is certainly not a definitive statement on whether they are gone, missing, dead, traitors, or whatever.

5. Something different happened to each of them - definitive statement of their "seperate" tragedies. Again tragedy can be interpreted in many different ways.

6. Were they forewarnings of what was to come? - Uncertain, as even Dorn who is thinking this is uncertain. Open ended musing is available on this with possible rebellion being top of the shop for at least one Primarch but not both due to the seperate thing above.

7. Destroyed by the Emperor for 6 above - Possible, but it is highly unlikely (but not absolutely impossible) that any space marine v space marine conflict took place, given how unthinkable various characters thoughts are on this. Although worth noting that these are not ever Primarch thoughts. (Just had a thought - maybe Horus found it easier to order marine v marine conflict as it was he who had gotten rid of one of his brothers). This does not rule out any other Imperial destruction of said Primarch and legion, say by the Custodes. Not likely to be Imperial Army though as this would have wider conotations in morale and keeping quiet about it terms.

 

This leads me to the conclusion that one was lost, either cut off from the rest of the Imperium for various reasons (Lost all navigators, exile, led by Chaos - will expand on last one in a minute) and Malcador cautions Dorn not to waste resources looking for them.

 

This might have happened for both of the Legions at seperate times. One might have been led away by Chaos when they started tempting Horus, and transformed them into servants for the Dark Gods later on. It is stated that Horus turned 'fully half of the primarchs to his side" as well as saying "all of the primarchs were seduced by Chaos, and fully hallf failed that test".

 

This leads to the idea that one of the Lost Legions came back to the Imperium, guided by the Chaos Gods, to be swayed by Horus. They may have been destroyed completely by infighting after that, they may have been destroyed by xenos. The last one comes from the belief that Horus needed to hold the Imperium together, and to protect it he needed a Legion to defend it while all the others were fighting loyalists.

 

Another theory is one slightly touched on, a primarch turned to Chaos before the rest and it was covered up. What if a primarch turned to Chaos but his legion didn't? A legion of Space Marines could take down a primarch, but it would be hard for them both. In their shame for their primarch, as well as their sadness of his loss (even though it was they who killed him) they pleaded with the Emperor to be destroyed. Thus, they were assigned to attack places that would be suicidal, and no more Astartes of that legion would be used.

 

Just some theories.

[Verythrax Draconis]

*very long post* :P

 

Very good!

[harial]

here are 2 interestings idea that no one has yet touched upon I think.

 

1) the planet that one of the primarchs was sent to was consumed by the tyranids and a primach became part of the hive.

2) The Blank Primach accidently landed on a tomb world and was turned into the first pariah?

[Divergent Reality]

here are 2 interestings idea that no one has yet touched upon I think.

 

1) the planet that one of the primarchs was sent to was consumed by the tyranids and a primach became part of the hive.

2) The Blank Primach accidently landed on a tomb world and was turned into the first pariah?

 

1. possibly.

 

2. probably not. pariahs are a human modification, not a thing made from the emperor.

 

besides, all 20 primarchs were found. they would have been 'lost' if that were the case.

[stinkenheim]

assuming that one of the pods was damaged before being sucked into the warp and the primarch within was dead, it could still have been recovered by the emperor and the primarchs body would have been 'found'.

Imagine if the pod was seen as it crashed on the planet, if it were a lowtech world it would be easy for the people to worship it as a relic of the gods. if the body inside were discovered then surely that would prove to those people that they were indeed the children of the gods created in their image.

then when the emperor or another primarch arrives to liberate the planet they hear rumours of the 'god'/'starchild' and discover the fate of one of the primarchs.

 

if that were the case then the passage about all the primarchs being found would still hold true, their legion may have been involved in the crusades but may have suffered from awful luck muc like one of the cured founding chapters (lamentors wasn't it) and they could have been destroyed in some way. thus they were beset by tragedy from the beggining and Dorn's quote could still hold true.

[Bartol the Unforgiving]

But we have to remember that Imperial authorities wouldn't strike the names of the legions from their records unless they did something particularly treasonous. One could argue that the Horus Heresy was also an act of treason as well, but the Heresy engulfed the entire galaxy and comprised half the remaining legions as well as numerous elements of the Imperial army and navy. The treason of two legions could be much more easily covered up by striking their names from the records.

 

As to the treason itself, it could range from anything to a fall to chaos, to xenos or non-imperial human sympathy, or just plain desertion. I personally like the fact that GW keeps the identity of the two legions intentionally vague and the authors of the Horus Heresy book series are honoring that vagueness. It serves for a lot of interesting debate and speculation on our part.

[Captain Blint]

I always assumed that the damaged Pod is what led to Magnus the Red's mutation... However I don't know much background on him so it may have been explained another way. Also, something I view as an inconsistency in the background information is that if the Emperor created 20 legions, and only 20 primarchs to lead them, then why

was it revealed near the end of Legion that the Alpha Legion has twin primarchs... could Omegon or Alpharius be one of the missing primarchs?

[Octavulg]

Blint:

No. But that could be a badly written book! That explains it all!

 

More seriously, Dorn mentions both of them as missing (but that they had previously been kicking around) when talking to Malcador in some book or other in the HH series.

[Bartol the Unforgiving]

I've never read anything by Dan Abnett that could be considered bad. Alpharius and Omegon are just twin Primarchs, the fact is not known outside the Legion (whether Horus or the Emperor knew is still vague, you'd think they would). Basically considered as one soul in two bodies.

[Indigo]

An age old topic that is always entertaining to join in on ;)

 

It has been said before but again to summarise, the only concrete evidence we have is that they DID take part in the Great Crusade therefore at some point they were "legit" Legions which served the Emperor. Everything else below is my own personal inference from the HH books and other source material.

 

It is highly unlikely that the two legions "rebelled" in the way Horus did. The HH was impossible to "cover up" and not one but two marine legions going rogue and turning on the Imperium would set a precedent and mean Horus' subsequent betrayal was no real surprise - something which is clearly contrary to the books.

 

I find the exact wording of the conversation Dorn & Malcador have to be interesting. Couple that with the wording on recent miniature releases... Dorn refers to the two legions as being "lost", Malcador likewise. Cue the arrival of the "Legion of the Damned", a legion whom only the Emperor knows the truth about... for me there is a distinct probability that the Legion of the Damned are one of the Lost Legions. It's possible that the LOTD are both missing legions, an amalgam, but I find that unlikely. The LOTD remain in the service of the Emperor but what happened to them is so anathema they are removed from all records. Given that there are only a handful of living people who could potentially know what they WERE, prior to being lost, knowing where/what they ARE 10,000 years later is unlikely to be known to any but the Emperor. The whole Fire Hawks chapter to me strikes me as being hand waving bull:cuss, frankly. LOTD being a Lost Legion fits with lore and more importantly, to me, feels right. They were not traitors - traitors are remembered and hated - but they needed records removed for some reason. However, the fact they are no longer a legion like others could be interpreted by the likes of Dorn as being a portent for the events of the HH, which he mentions in the Lightning Tower. He doesn't understand Horus's motivations, he doesn't understand how Legion 2 or 11 became the LOTD but could easily assume they are one and the same thing when clearly they are not.

 

The other Legion however is more mysterious. There are a whole host of things it could possibly be but to me the "lost" phrase again is interesting. Just because a legion has been scrubbed from history does not mean it is necessarily turned, or evil. The fact that those legions which DID turn is proof enough for me that they simply didn't change sides. For me, the most likely explanation is they were stationed permanently within the human end of the webway defending humanity for all eternity. The fact there is even a webway entrance there at all is unknown to 99% of the Imperium - assigning them to it then removing every single reference to them is the best way to keep that secret.

 

However, deep down, I think that GW simply haven't decided what to do hence the stories are inconclusive at best and contradictory at worst. But if they do have a backstory, I'd bet money on the LOTD being one of them. And I'd bet money they have nothing to do with the Tau - Jervis said they were introduced as a way of having a "friendly face" race in 40k, pure and simple.

 

Ego aside I like my own theories as they fit in nicely with established fluff and are consistent with the known behaviours of characters during and since the HH. I welcome any comments on them!

 

Thanks

[Verythrax Draconis]

I personally like the LotD theory, but the it's not an welcome idea around here ;)

 

If it could simply be a chapter, why call it "LEGION of the Dead", after all the Heresy and Codex Astartex fuzz?

 

I disagree about the 2 legions being rogue would conflict with HH fluff, since the traitor legions weren't deleted. I think that deleting those legions would matter BEFORE the heresy (that is likely to be the time of disappearance of both), since the Emperor is very secretive (or just sceptical) about Chaos, sorcery and the origin of mutation and chaos possession - that would put his "science is almighty" motto to the ground.

 

The Webway is also a possibility. They could have been deleted not mainly because the Emperor wasn't anyone to know about their mission/destiny, but to prevent Xenos (Eldar and DE mainly) from discovering the its existance.

 

And sure, "lost" can mean a lot of stuff, like Horus was "lost" to the ruinous powers :P

[Indigo]

But we have to remember that Imperial authorities wouldn't strike the names of the legions from their records unless they did something particularly treasonous.

 

I wholeheartedly disagree. Horus nearly kills the Emperor, is so close to doing so, yet he doesn't get his name struck from the records. If anything he's made even MORE infamous.

 

Therefore I'm pretty sure that if the only person in 39,000 years who comes close to killing the Emperor doesn't get scrubbed from history, some Legion running off into the hinterlands is not going to warrant absolute eradication from imperial records.

 

There are plenty of organisations in the world today who have no official record, I'm sure (but naturally can't prove it, seeing as how there are no records ;)), but are not "treacherous". Just highly secret, but still on the side of "good".

[Verythrax Draconis]

But we have to remember that Imperial authorities wouldn't strike the names of the legions from their records unless they did something particularly treasonous.

 

I wholeheartedly disagree. Horus nearly kills the Emperor, is so close to doing so, yet he doesn't get his name struck from the records. If anything he's made even MORE infamous.

 

Therefore I'm pretty sure that if the only person in 39,000 years who comes close to killing the Emperor doesn't get scrubbed from history, some Legion running off into the hinterlands is not going to warrant absolute eradication from imperial records.

 

There are plenty of organisations in the world today who have no official record, I'm sure (but naturally can't prove it, seeing as how there are no records ;)), but are not "treacherous". Just highly secret, but still on the side of "good".

 

Well, Horus involved the WHOLE Imperium the the biggest war in mankind's history. The Emperor (or the Imperial authorities, in that case) would be very naive to thing that it would be forgotten that easy, after all the rememberancer's work.

 

And the Traitors Legions threat is still very alive. It is wiser to keep them in mind all the time.

 

The 2 legions could had being renegades, but maybe they simply don't exist anymore since they "lost", so they could safely become an anathema, their treason being an unthinkable aberration at that time - until the Imperium witness how easy things could go from bad to worse and change the policy on it (inquisition, iron fist control over the population, imperial creed, etc)

 

Keep in mind that Dorn dialog they are forever lost. So they cease to be, caput. It's not like they went in a very secretive mission, and Dorn could call them back to do the Imperial bidding. And what happened to them, was surely sad - they consider it a "tragedy".

[Raulmichile]

I wholeheartedly disagree. Horus nearly kills the Emperor, is so close to doing so, yet he doesn't get his name struck from the records. If anything he's made even MORE infamous.

 

Therefore I'm pretty sure that if the only person in 39,000 years who comes close to killing the Emperor doesn't get scrubbed from history, some Legion running off into the hinterlands is not going to warrant absolute eradication from imperial records.

 

There are plenty of organisations in the world today who have no official record, I'm sure (but naturally can't prove it, seeing as how there are no records ;)), but are not "treacherous". Just highly secret, but still on the side of "good".

 

 

Keep in mind that although the Heresy is known for everyone from a player perspective, the heresy war in unknown for practically all mankind. Most people in the Imperium think that the Emperor simply ascended to godhood many millenia ago or sacrificed himself to keep mankind united at the dawn of the Imperium. Most people doesn't know who Horus is or what happened in the Heresy whatsoever. A big chunk of planets have little contact with Imperial bureaucracy except for the Ecclesiarchy and paying thites.

 

To me the lost legions maybe failed abismally and were wiped out in campaign alog with their Primarchs/ were lost in some cataclysmic event or in the warp; and as old Roman Empire did with his legions, they deleted their numbers if they failed horribly to keep the reputation and spirit the corps of the enitre army. I sincerily think that the two missing legions/chapters thing began as a way to give fluff some Roman related depth (they are Legions, and twenty after all :sweat: ) that was not really relevant but with the passing of years developed in a very interesting plot which GW has exploited to keep fans' minds flying.

 

My two cents.

[Verythrax Draconis]

To me the lost legions maybe failed abismally and were wiped out in campaign alog with their Primarchs/ were lost in some cataclysmic event or in the warp; and as old Roman Empire did with his legions, they deleted their numbers if they failed horribly to keep the reputation and spirit the corps of the enitre army. I sincerily think that the two missing legions/chapters thing began as a way to give fluff some Roman related depth (they are Legions, and twenty after all ;) ) that was not really relevant but with the passing of years developed in a very interesting plot which GW has exploited to keep fans' minds flying.

 

My two cents.

 

THAT's very interesting!

 

The Emperor is invincible, and his sons, the Primarchs, godlike. For them to be defeated is unthinkable!

 

B)

[Cohort]

My turn to jump in; this is a really good thread so far!

 

I think we need to look at the line, "Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded?"

 

Think about how The Nine fell:

 

1. Horus was tempted by chaos after being infected with a chaos virus

2. Angron rebelled against the Emperor's "tyranny"

3. Perturabo was overworked

4. Night Haunter was too brutal and radical

5. Magnus was a sorceror

6. Lorgar's faith was betrayed

7. Mortarion was virus'ed

8. Fulgrim was... tempted?

9. Alpharius Omegon turned "on his own" (xenos influence)

 

Which of these did no one see coming? Which could be "aberrations"? Which leads me to my next question, and the one we really need to ask: what are primarch's not supposed to do?

 

First, they aren't supposed to get sick. Second they aren't supposed to worship the Emperor. Third, they are expected to follow orders obediently and never quit. They also aren't supposed to blow up their home worlds, practice sorcery, and consort with xenos.

 

Which leads to the question: Which warnings should have been heeded?

 

First, Dorn is talking, and he knows how dangerous Night Haunter is, so its very likely that one of the primarchs was another vigilante radical like Konrad (or Angron.)

 

Second, and totally dependent on the time the "Lightning Tower" takes place, is that the other primarch could have been sickened, excommunicated for starting an Imperial cult, or became too powerful a sorceror. All three cases have precedents with Horus, Lorgar, and Magnus respectively, and Dorn knows about them, and Dorn does not know about Alpharius Omegon's plans with the xenos.

 

So, I think, including a few other ideas from other posts we can add: chaotic sickness, radicalism, faith in the Emperor (or another being), and sorcery to the list of definite maybe's.

[Indigo]

The 2 legions could had being renegades, but maybe they simply don't exist anymore since they "lost", so they could safely become an anathema, their treason being an unthinkable aberration at that time - until the Imperium witness how easy things could go from bad to worse and change the policy on it (inquisition, iron fist control over the population, imperial creed, etc)

 

True, but we have evidence that when the Thousand Sons went "renegade" the Emperor didn't cover it up and instead unleashed the Space Wolves on them. And in this case, at the time, they hadn't actually gone renegade and were just trying to do the right thing.

 

Keep in mind that Dorn dialog they are forever lost. So they cease to be, caput. It's not like they went in a very secretive mission, and Dorn could call them back to do the Imperial bidding. And what happened to them, was surely sad - they consider it a "tragedy".

 

I don't think Dorn knows where they are, or what they are doing. Just that they are lost.

 

I think that the only person who would know, truly, what happened to them, would be the Emperor. I think that, using my own guesses for the sake of argument, one somehow turned into the Legion of the Damned, and the other being sent into the Webway, the Emperor would simply not say what happened. Or perhaps his official line was simply "they are lost to us", making Malcador's statement simply an echo of the Emperor's story. They are not "lost" officially, but to the other Primarchs and the Legions they are which will dismay and anger them depending on individual disposition - e.g. Dorn regrets they are not there, Sigismund, who is a lot more hot-headed is angry at their perceived abandoning of the Emperor. But irrespective of their reaction, neither knows where they are or in what state.

 

Another explanation which is rather more mundance is one or both are simply lost in the warp. They can't be ever ruled out as returning, but can never be relied on. That to me is less likely as being lost in the warp wouldn't seem to justify Sigismund wanting to tear the statues down as things getting lost in the warp is relatively mundane.

[Indigo]

I think we need to look at the line, "Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded?"

 

Think about how The Nine fell:

 

1. Horus was tempted by chaos after being infected with a chaos virus

2. Angron rebelled against the Emperor's "tyranny"

3. Perturabo was overworked

4. Night Haunter was too brutal and radical

5. Magnus was a sorceror

6. Lorgar's faith was betrayed

7. Mortarion was virus'ed

8. Fulgrim was... tempted?

9. Alpharius Omegon turned "on his own" (xenos influence)

 

Which of these did no one see coming? Which could be "aberrations"? Which leads me to my next question, and the one we really need to ask: what are primarch's not supposed to do?

 

First, they aren't supposed to get sick. Second they aren't supposed to worship the Emperor. Third, they are expected to follow orders obediently and never quit. They also aren't supposed to blow up their home worlds, practice sorcery, and consort with xenos.

 

IMO none of these were expected. The fact that all of these were so shocking implies to my mind none of the above had occurred before the heresy. I can't believe any of them happened, otherwise the Emperor at the very least would have noticed and done something about it.

 

Which leads to the question: Which warnings should have been heeded?

 

I think this is a very good question.

But I think had one of the lost two done something echoed by one of the traitorous nine, the sheer level of shock would be much, much reduced. There is a great deal of emphasis on the actions of the traitors being exceptional - the first time it happens it's exceptional, but the second time is almost routine :D

 

First, Dorn is talking, and he knows how dangerous Night Haunter is, so its very likely that one of the primarchs was another vigilante radical like Konrad (or Angron.)

 

I don't personally agree but can follow your line of thinking.

 

Second, and totally dependent on the time the "Lightning Tower" takes place, is that the other primarch could have been sickened, excommunicated for starting an Imperial cult, or became too powerful a sorceror. All three cases have precedents with Horus, Lorgar, and Magnus respectively, and Dorn knows about them, and Dorn does not know about Alpharius Omegon's plans with the xenos.

 

So, I think, including a few other ideas from other posts we can add: chaotic sickness, radicalism, faith in the Emperor (or another being), and sorcery to the list of definite maybe's.

 

It's precisely because they have precedents that I don't think the lost two did something the traitor nine did. I think something happened to the two that

 

a) can be described as being "lost" in some sense of the word

:lol: is unique

c) can be considered traitorous AND remaining loyal depending on individual interpretation. e.g. Sigismund thinks no loyal marine should ever get lost in the webway because it is lax in service of the emperor, whilst Dorn knows accidents happen.