Two Unknown Legions

[Verythrax Draconis]

The 2 legions could had being renegades, but maybe they simply don't exist anymore since they "lost", so they could safely become an anathema, their treason being an unthinkable aberration at that time - until the Imperium witness how easy things could go from bad to worse and change the policy on it (inquisition, iron fist control over the population, imperial creed, etc)

 

True, but we have evidence that when the Thousand Sons went "renegade" the Emperor didn't cover it up and instead unleashed the Space Wolves on them. And in this case, at the time, they hadn't actually gone renegade and were just trying to do the right thing.

 

Keep in mind that Dorn dialog they are forever lost. So they cease to be, caput. It's not like they went in a very secretive mission, and Dorn could call them back to do the Imperial bidding. And what happened to them, was surely sad - they consider it a "tragedy".

 

I don't think Dorn knows where they are, or what they are doing. Just that they are lost.

 

I think that the only person who would know, truly, what happened to them, would be the Emperor. I think that, using my own guesses for the sake of argument, one somehow turned into the Legion of the Damned, and the other being sent into the Webway, the Emperor would simply not say what happened. Or perhaps his official line was simply "they are lost to us", making Malcador's statement simply an echo of the Emperor's story. They are not "lost" officially, but to the other Primarchs and the Legions they are which will dismay and anger them depending on individual disposition - e.g. Dorn regrets they are not there, Sigismund, who is a lot more hot-headed is angry at their perceived abandoning of the Emperor. But irrespective of their reaction, neither knows where they are or in what state.

 

Another explanation which is rather more mundance is one or both are simply lost in the warp. They can't be ever ruled out as returning, but can never be relied on. That to me is less likely as being lost in the warp wouldn't seem to justify Sigismund wanting to tear the statues down as things getting lost in the warp is relatively mundane.

 

I like the LotD/Webway idea, but I see a small (but big enough, maybe) flaw here: If they are simply "lost" strictu sensu, why delete them, or even worse, negate their primarchs a place of glory? Keep in mind that they fought the Crusade, so why delete them?

 

It would be much more non-sensical if they just got lost in the warp. I dont think the Imperium would dispose their heroes that easy. Treason or not, what happened needs to be at least something very shameful to justify such deletion. One thing is remove the records - it could have happened just for strategic secrecy - but remove the primarch statua would be a move like "spread salt in their lands so nothing will grow there and curse they family for the next generations like was done in middle ages.

 

So:

- LotD: very likely

- Webway: possible, but removing the primarch's statue?

- Warp: unlikely

[IronDuke]

My problem is with the LOTD theory is that there are no records of them appearing before the Fire Hawks Chapter vanished. If they were one of the lost Legions, you would expect them to pop up far more regularly, far earlier in the timeline (i.e. pre Fire Hakws), and in greater numbers than they do. Just my thoughts.

ID

[The_son_of_Dorn]

what about the illuminate and their plot to revive the emperor by finding all his naturally created children?

 

is it not possible that the whole endeavour of the illuminate is puppeteered by the 2 missing Primarchs? that they are the ones working behind the scenes the dispel the foul working's of corrupt members of the inquisition to reinstate the emperor and return the imperium to its former glory?

 

lest we forget all the current plot holes & possibilities.

 

- the only one who knows for sure is Tzeentch.............and the people at gw........ *sigh*

 

so many idea possibilities my head hurts thinking of them all.

 

 

Plus there are also 3 dead loyal primarchs - the rest are either missing or in stasis. (or possibally growing a new head on mars aka Feruss Manuss) - if another 2 were were to jump back into the mix youd have a level playing field for primarch wars ( i know alpharius is dead but Omegon is still out there some where)

 

either way no one knows for sure & i doubt they ever will :)

[Verythrax Draconis]

My problem is with the LOTD theory is that there are no records of them appearing before the Fire Hawks Chapter vanished. If they were one of the lost Legions, you would expect them to pop up far more regularly, far earlier in the timeline (i.e. pre Fire Hakws), and in greater numbers than they do. Just my thoughts.

ID

 

Don't forget that 40k is, besides the old USSR, the motherland of desinformation ;)

 

The Fire Hawks disappearance time slot could just be a coincidence. It's uncommon to the Warp to engulf a whole chapter like that, but people getting lost in the warp is not that uncommon. And of course, by the chaotic nature of the warp, they (LoTD and/or Fire Hawks) could ressurge anytime, really.

 

The focus in the Fire Hawks could just be thrown by GW to keep the doubt in the air. If they didn't mentioned the Fire Hawks, their origin would be pretty obvious, don't you think? ;)

 

And the size of the appearances doesn't really matter, I think - they are ghosts/spectres/whatever, how we can evaluate what should be expected from it? :)

[Indigo]

My problem is with the LOTD theory is that there are no records of them appearing before the Fire Hawks Chapter vanished. If they were one of the lost Legions, you would expect them to pop up far more regularly, far earlier in the timeline (i.e. pre Fire Hakws), and in greater numbers than they do. Just my thoughts.

ID

 

During the Heresy, if they did pop up it'd be in the middle of the biggest, most shocking revelation wars the Imperium had (and still has) ever known. Ghostly marines appearing out of nowhere would be easily mistaken for enemies - remember this is 99% of people's first experience of Chaos. I can only think that the LOTD must have actually been helping in the siege of terra but mistaken for their true origin. Or maybe Dorn/Khan/Sanguinus knew and understood and said nothing.

 

I think the lack of them in lore is more down to GW laziness in revisiting it truth be told. For me the Fire Hawks explanation was always a bullsh1t cop out, and the fact GW are retconning their background in the latest info about the LOTD is encouraging.

 

But agree, they are conspicuous by their absence.

[Indigo]

I like the LotD/Webway idea, but I see a small (but big enough, maybe) flaw here: If they are simply "lost" strictu sensu, why delete them, or even worse, negate their primarchs a place of glory? Keep in mind that they fought the Crusade, so why delete them?

 

It would be much more non-sensical if they just got lost in the warp. I dont think the Imperium would dispose their heroes that easy. Treason or not, what happened needs to be at least something very shameful to justify such deletion. One thing is remove the records - it could have happened just for strategic secrecy - but remove the primarch statua would be a move like "spread salt in their lands so nothing will grow there and curse they family for the next generations like was done in middle ages.

 

I see your point. So now it's incredibly unlikely that "getting lost" equates to the term "they are lost to us". I still think though that if the Emperor knew what happened, and I maintain it's unlikely to be something heretical because the concept of turning against the emperor is still so unbelievable to the remaining primarchs.

 

So consider the possibility that the Primarchs know one primarch has been damned (aka become the LOTD) - they are considered lost but not evil, they have just been damned for eternity by some means. Dorn doesnt hate them for this, Sigismund sees this as a failing of them and is angry.

 

So:

- LotD: very likely

Agree.

 

- Webway: possible, but removing the primarch's statue?

The more I think about it the more I agree - the LOTD for me is 99% certain, the webway was always the "only other thing I could think of" idea :D

 

- Warp: unlikely

Agree.

[Verythrax Draconis]

I see your point. So now it's incredibly unlikely that "getting lost" equates to the term "they are lost to us". I still think though that if the Emperor knew what happened, and I maintain it's unlikely to be something heretical because the concept of turning against the emperor is still so unbelievable to the remaining primarchs.

 

So consider the possibility that the Primarchs know one primarch has been damned (aka become the LOTD) - they are considered lost but not evil, they have just been damned for eternity by some means. Dorn doesnt hate them for this, Sigismund sees this as a failing of them and is angry.

 

While we agree about "getting lost", I think that's a vein that you are missing (unless I missed something being mentioned in the fluff, so it would be MY fault) is that we are taking for the granted that Dorn and Sigismund really knows what they are talking about. Maybe their opinion is based ow what the Emperor told them (and the other primarchs), second hand information. Or even worse, maybe they are just assuming something base on they own misconceptions.

 

And there's still my old theory that the primarchs betrayal is unthinkable because the Emperor prevented the other primarchs to know the truth.

 

PS: the rest of the LotD idea is nice. Maybe some "good" primarchs know who they are, but kept it untouched, cause it was something so unthinkable to some, or simply too strange to make other more thick-headed primarchs understand.

[douchie]

Here's my 2 cents worth.

 

The two missing legions were expunged, through rebellion against the Emperor or going against his will etc. Magnus was threatened with it if he didn't heed the Emperor's command.

 

All records were expunged to prevent other legions rallying to their cause by hiding the details of why & how they rebelled. Similar to the soul Drinkers, othes might see the flaws with the imperium & decide they're better of else where etc.

 

If that is a valid arguement, then we also need to look into why the HH legions were'nt deleted in such away.

 

The reason that the Legions in HH were not expunged, in my opinion is because, the rebellion got to such a point where everyone had to make a choice! Emperor or rebellion, you must decide! Therefore there is no need or indeed way to hide the details of the rebellion.

 

The Emperor was also 'killed' & therefore the legacy of Legions that rebelled was forever assured.

[Badhaggis]

id say LotD idea is good but im not so sure about the webway idea, didn't the emperor close it after magnus accidently let daemons infest it?

 

id say turning renegade but not in a chaos way is more likely. sure all the primarch embody different traits surely one could embody the greater good or something ^_^

[Verythrax Draconis]

I was enamorating this idea in the last hour or so... how about the second legion was just (gasp) pacifist?

 

Not pacifist as we know here, but the primarch in a first moment believed in the Emperor and thought that it was a great idea, but didn't like the ruthless way of doing things, and killing humans and aliens for "compliance"?

 

maybe he just instead of go rogue, just delivered himself and his legion to the Emperor, for him to kill them (prefered to die than continue the campaign).

 

It would explain why the legion was present at the crusade, how it felt from grace to the point of be completely deleted from the records, and didn't repeated any of the traitors' heresies.

 

The only question that would remain is that one about their destinies could be considered warnings of the things to come. My theories:

 

- for LotD: maybe that time it wasn't clear if the LotD was still loyal (not that really matters, they became an aberration enough to be execrated) so they could easily compare it to the transforming of the traitors legions to chaos, and see both as the same thing. At the first moment, LotD was just and aberration never seen before, now (by the time of Dorn's dialogue) they were an example of the ultimate betrayal that caught horus, too.

 

- for the "reluctant" legion: maybe Dorn is considering that the arguments presented by that primarch had some validity, afterall. By letting the legions act ruthlessly, the Emperor let the door open for the chaotic influence. A more moderated path could avoid several problems (even the future problems to be faced in the 41st millennium).

[Cohort]

Indigo, I read your post, and I follow you. I think there has to be something in between the Nine's transgressions and the Two's that could act as a warning and be unique.

 

Another ball in the "pacifist" court is when Horus strikes the primarch's cryo-tube, he did so because he was mad at the primarch for not "being all he could be." Untapped potential.

 

I'm thinking: pacifist, psyker, or sickly.

 

Oh, another funny thought. Remember the Emperor at the start of Horus Rising? Anyone ever thought he's one of them?

[Verythrax Draconis]

Indigo, I read your post, and I follow you. I think there has to be something in between the Nine's transgressions and the Two's that could act as a warning and be unique.

 

Another ball in the "pacifist" court is when Horus strikes the primarch's cryo-tube, he did so because he was mad at the primarch for not "being all he could be." Untapped potential.

 

I'm thinking: pacifist, psyker, or sickly.

 

Oh, another funny thought. Remember the Emperor at the start of Horus Rising? Anyone ever thought he's one of them?

 

Hummm... yes, the custodes could be the "missing" Legion. They are done by Emperor's geneseed. And deleting them would keep secret their origin, and lots of dirty things that could make it easier to find the Emperor's weak spot <_<

 

I think it's far fetched. But I like it :angry:

[Cohort]

I thought it was canon that the Custodes aren't a missing legion; they are made from the Emperor's geneseed (or just, genetic material.)

[Verythrax Draconis]

I thought it was canon that the Custodes aren't a missing legion; they are made from the Emperor's geneseed (or just, genetic material.)

 

Not necessarily canon, but usually ruled out cause they have the Emperor's geneseed. But I don't remember anybody considering as a primarch because of that :P

 

PS> but of course, the fluff about their destinies make clear that something bad happened to them - and that they aren't around anymore. So THIS would rule them out completely.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

'sighs'

 

 

I think that some people are saying some things that are just slightly...off.

 

They couldn't have been destroyed, because Malcador tells Dorn not to go after them. As flawed as Dorn is, I don't think he is so arrogant or stupid that he thought he could travel back in time or go into the realm of the dead.

 

They couldn't have gone traitor, at least not when that conversation was happening. Again, he wouldn't go after them if they turned traitor. Also, marines vs. marine combat shocked just about everybody; it wasn't something they had seen before.

 

These two things indicate that they were loyal and alive, but unreachable, or that the last they knew was that they were alive and loyal, but unreachable.

 

This would lead to the conclusion that they were literally lost, as in they simply dissappeared. Perhaps they ran away. Perhaps they were sent into the... one field, that was impossible to penetrate psychically. Whatever the reason, they were lost and missing, not destroyed.

 

It also says numerous times thaat "fully half of the primarchs failed that test", the test obviously being the test of Chaos. This might mean one legion came back and turned to Chaos after meeting up with Horus (or Lorgar), but was subsequently destroyed before being found by Imperials. This is because the records for these would have been restored if they had been found again, even if they were traitor.

[Verythrax Draconis]

'sighs'

 

 

I think that some people are saying some things that are just slightly...off.

 

They couldn't have been destroyed, because Malcador tells Dorn not to go after them. As flawed as Dorn is, I don't think he is so arrogant or stupid that he thought he could travel back in time or go into the realm of the dead.

 

They couldn't have gone traitor, at least not when that conversation was happening. Again, he wouldn't go after them if they turned traitor. Also, marines vs. marine combat shocked just about everybody; it wasn't something they had seen before.

 

These two things indicate that they were loyal and alive, but unreachable, or that the last they knew was that they were alive and loyal, but unreachable.

 

This would lead to the conclusion that they were literally lost, as in they simply dissappeared. Perhaps they ran away. Perhaps they were sent into the... one field, that was impossible to penetrate psychically. Whatever the reason, they were lost and missing, not destroyed.

 

It also says numerous times thaat "fully half of the primarchs failed that test", the test obviously being the test of Chaos. This might mean one legion came back and turned to Chaos after meeting up with Horus (or Lorgar), but was subsequently destroyed before being found by Imperials. This is because the records for these would have been restored if they had been found again, even if they were traitor.

 

The dialogue can simple be figurative. It's not like Dorn is really planning to go after them, but longing to idea that maybe if the things went in a different way, he could count on them. And Malcador just rebuke him since it's would be unthinkable since those had fallen from grace/disappeared/became something that could be considered an abomination for the Emperor's standards.

 

And, at least for LotD, if we consider it as a valid hipotesis, he could really try to locate them, anyway. Or just count with their fortuitous appearance in time of need, if he had saw them before that - what Malcador could consider as complete nonsense.

 

The fact that half of the legions had gone traitor doesn't help at all, cause like presented several times in this and other threads, we can't say for sure that those 2 primarch were still counted in the time of the heresy. If they were deleted before it, there's only 18 legions available. We don't know the criteria of the writer on that. And I really doubt that the HH series will present those 2 legions. If they were present by the time of the heresy, allowing that way that one of them turned to chaos, they would need to present them in the books. Like I said, I really doubt that will happen.

 

The test can be anything. A test of loyality to the Imperium or to the Emperor himself is more likely.

And of course, following the "pacifist" theory, the Imperium could easily count that primarch as failed. Of even the LotD one, since there's a possibility that such destiny could be considered something as chaos.

 

I see no logic in "delete" a legion just because it gone missing, to be ready to "restore" it, just in case they find them again. All primarchs went missing, and their legions were all accounted for and their names known even before they know if they could really get their primarchs back or not. And the Imperium glorifies the ones that fall (or get MIA, in that matter) in his name.

 

PS: here's a bit that I think was neglected in all discussions so far:

 

Sigismund had urged that the effigies of the traitors also be removed from the Investiary. He had offered to do the work himself. This, Dorn recalled, had made the Emperor laugh.

For the time being, the traitors had been shrouded. Their towering, draped forms seemed like phantoms in the blue darkness.

 

Well, it can change things a bit:

 

- so it could be something logical that traitors could had their statues removed.

 

- since the Emperor laughs at the idea, could imply:

 

a: that what happened to the 2 legions is something much more serious than treason (at least in the twisted mind of the Emperor, anyway).

 

b: Or simply that the Emperor thought that Horus rebellion would be something that he could easily put down, make them listen to reason, and everybody be friends again. Afterall, if the Lightning Tower events are closer enough to Mechanicum, they were in an advantage of 13 legions against 5. By the dialogue in Mechanicum, the treason didn't seem to be something that he cared much about - at that point, at least.

[Cohort]

I'm starting to get a feeling that one legion did get lost in the warp, and another went in after it, and also got lost.

 

Think about it, no one but the Emperor understood the warp at that point. Dorn didn't know just how dangerous it was. Malcador does, but that's because he's the Emperor's right hand man. Dorn is just starting to realize, along with everyone else, that the warp is dangerous and much more powerful than they thought (because the Emperor likely withheld the truth about the warp from them.) So when two legions get lost in it, and likely possessed/destroyed (or locked in the warp by the Emperor himself!) Dorn and the others think their loss is an aberration.

 

When things like that start happening more often, Dorn realizes he should have known how dangerous the warp was all along. He also thinks, still with his old Primarch > universe mindset that he could go in after them, bring them back, turn the tide of the heresy, but Malcador knows the truth, that Dorn is starting to figure out, and tells him that he can't.

 

Sigismund meanwhile thinks the Two are traitors because they left the crusade. One likely got taken by the warp (possessed or lost) and the other went in after it.

 

There is no treason, just mistakes made by primarchs who didn't know better. This also leads to the reason why the Emperor gave Magnus a second chance; likely guilt.

[Indigo]

Here's my 2 cents worth.

 

The two missing legions were expunged, through rebellion against the Emperor or going against his will etc. Magnus was threatened with it if he didn't heed the Emperor's command.

 

All records were expunged to prevent other legions rallying to their cause by hiding the details of why & how they rebelled. Similar to the soul Drinkers, othes might see the flaws with the imperium & decide they're better of else where etc.

 

If they WERE expunged, and the secrets hidden... who did the expunging? It took a legion of space wolves, adeptus custodes and sisters of silence to not-quite-destroy the Thousand Sons. Who expunged TWO entire legions would be my question.

[Indigo]

@Cohort - possibly, and you make a good argument, but I personally don't find it very.... satisfying. One Legion getting lost in the warp is a lot of stuff to lose. Two is just being careless :tu:

 

I also find it hard to reconcile "just getting lost" with Dorn's musings about the two lost legions being "warnings that could have been heeded". If they were accidentally lost it has little/no bearing on Horus' rebellion, nor does it strike me as being a useful warning for anything except getting better Navigators ^_^

[Karrious]

Ok all 20 legions took part in the great crusade but what if 2 were never reunited with their primarch?

They all set out from Terra with the emp and battled at his side in the crusade till they were reunited with their own primarchs.

But when our missing legions 1 or both found their primarch that primarch would not bend his knee 2 the emp or as others half said was a pacifist,alien lover, mutant or even already dead or had their own empire. after this the legions were disbanded or continued in the great crusade at the emperors side never being reinforced till they simply seized to be.

sorry about my none existent grammar. :lol:

[Indigo]

As regards the custodes being a missing Legion - too many quotes to include in one reply.

 

Canon on the custodes is not very cohesive. I've read articles that describe them as "being to a space marine what a space marine is to a man", and then the Tales of Heresy book says that no one in their right mind would predict the outcome of an encounter between a custodes and an astartes, implying to me that they are a lot more evenly matched. That a Primarch is more powerful than a custodes seems to be clear however.

 

Personally I like the idea of it, the concept of the custodes being a legion dedicated entirely to the protection of the Emperor. What I actually think, based on inferences from a range of often-conflicting source material, is that the custodes are the first of his gene-engineered "thunder warriors". The precursors to the sapce marines, slightly better but a lot harder and more time consuming to create. The space marines were the slightly inferior but much quicker and more reliable to create in bulk (hence we have 20 legions of astartes and about 1000 custodes).

 

My arguments against the custodes being a lost legion are basically

 

- they were with the Emperor from the beginning of the unification wars, pre-dating or at least equal to the earliest marine legions

- they have been described in some sources as being "better" than marines (i.e. "not the same" in my eyes)

- 20 legions are described as being on the great crusade, at the exact same time the custodes are protecting the emperor

- assuming that the emperor has 1000 odd custodes, then after ullanor decides to convert a legion into a "legion of custodes" this would not go unnoticed by the other primarchs.

- if a legion is converted to custodes, they're not "lost" to Dorn, assuming the conversion and relocation of 10,000 astartes to custodes could be hidden!

 

So as much as I like the idea, I can't see it working.

[Indigo]

Ok all 20 legions took part in the great crusade but what if 2 were never reunited with their primarch?

They all set out from Terra with the emp and battled at his side in the crusade till they were reunited with their own primarchs.

But when our missing legions 1 or both found their primarch that primarch would not bend his knee 2 the emp or as others half said was a pacifist,alien lover, mutant or even already dead or had their own empire. after this the legions were disbanded or continued in the great crusade at the emperors side never being reinforced till they simply seized to be.

sorry about my none existent grammar. :lol:

 

Quite a few sources say that all legions were reunited and all fought in the Great Crusade. Sadly I'm at work and dont have material to hand to give exact quotes but I'm 99% sure that this is the case.

[Indigo]

PS: here's a bit that I think was neglected in all discussions so far:

 

Sigismund had urged that the effigies of the traitors also be removed from the Investiary. He had offered to do the work himself. This, Dorn recalled, had made the Emperor laugh. For the time being, the traitors had been shrouded. Their towering, draped forms seemed like phantoms in the blue darkness.

 

Well, it can change things a bit:

 

- so it could be something logical that traitors could had their statues removed.

 

- since the Emperor laughs at the idea, could imply:

 

a: that what happened to the 2 legions is something much more serious than treason (at least in the twisted mind of the Emperor, anyway).

 

b: Or simply that the Emperor thought that Horus rebellion would be something that he could easily put down, make them listen to reason, and everybody be friends again. Afterall, if the Lightning Tower events are closer enough to Mechanicum, they were in an advantage of 13 legions against 5. By the dialogue in Mechanicum, the treason didn't seem to be something that he cared much about - at that point, at least.

 

I listened to the Lightning Tower again last night and that line about Sigismund a few times. It's not conclusive, but it sounds like it is SIGISMUND saying they are traitors, rather than it being Dorn, Malcador or the Emperor. If the Emperor thought they were an enemy I think he personally would have torn down the statues. The fact he is laughing it off suggests to me there is something of a personal joke that only he, Malcador and probably some/all of the Primarchs know. We know he is closer to some Primarchs than others, Horus and Dorn being the main two IMO, so maybe not all Primarchs know what happened.

 

But the comment about them being portrayed as phantoms in the blue light... I do wonder if that is a subtle reference to another legion of phantasmal marines :)

 

Other things to ponder.

 

- if they turned traitor, which I'm pretty sure they didn't, Horus would know. He would also no doubt attempt to recruit them and to date in the HH series he has not bothered.

- if they turned traitor, Dorn would hardly want them back - he does.

- if they were NOT traitor, Horus would no doubt factor them into a contingency plan. He IS the warmaster after all and would at least consider the option of them returning.

 

I do love this topic :lol:

[Verythrax Draconis]

Other things to ponder.

 

- if they turned traitor, which I'm pretty sure they didn't, Horus would know. He would also no doubt attempt to recruit them and to date in the HH series he has not bothered.

- if they turned traitor, Dorn would hardly want them back - he does.

- if they were NOT traitor, Horus would no doubt factor them into a contingency plan. He IS the warmaster after all and would at least consider the option of them returning.

 

I do love this topic :lol:

 

Very good points.

 

It fits my idea of the 2 legions somewhat fallen from grace, but their loyality is still unknown - Like Dorn thinking that he could count with them, but Malcador dismissing the idea - some people involved considered what happened to them something unforgivable (or at least irreversible) but others believe otherwise.

 

Putting it in the light of my favorite theories so far:

 

- LotD: they are "lost", but still around. And easily could be considered traitors to some, and some could beilieve that they could be brought back. And by the expanded Horus knowledge of the warp and chaos, he would know that the LotD wasn't available to him, either;

 

 

- Pacifist Primarch: he wasn't against the Emperor and the humanity, but just against the methods. He could someone that Dorn could rely. Afterall, if such primarch know that the Heresy would happen, choosing to side with the Emperor would be a no-brainer.

[Sixtyten]

I dont know if we will get much out from stating When they disappeared. Some of the chaps here have touched on it - what can they have done?

LOTD, sure. I think it fits.

Second one.My thoughts here are on stuff that are neither chaos nor.. emperor ( fist, what the :lol: is the clear counter-part to Chaos? Order? "who" is order then?) Well considering all faiths true. ei both the nightbringer isha and papa nurgle are real, there are a heck of stuff that the imperium would disagree about apart from chaos and being buddy with a xenos. Second idea is about the Illuminati. They fit. They wouldt be accepted by the Emperor but it wouldn't be acceptable to have them in any records. with this said I don't think that the Illuminati is THE THING but they is a path to explore further.