Dark Apostle Thirst Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 The LOTD, maybe they were a legion that got lost, and came back after the HH? I know at least one of them actually got lost. It is one of the only logical conclusions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188996-two-unknown-legions/page/5/#findComment-2283910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indigo Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I know at least one of them actually got lost. It is one of the only logical conclusions. I really do find the idea of a legion of 10,000+ marines getting *lost* quite crazily silly. In the 31st millenium mankind has bridged the gap between stars, created post-human super warriors and is led by nothing less than a god incarnate, but still has unreliable sat nav. Nah, just getting lost isn't dramatic enough (or statistically probable IMO). For something to warrant a massive Legion cover up, it needs to be properly epic not just "turn right, 100 yards, mind the black hole, doh!" :cuss Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188996-two-unknown-legions/page/5/#findComment-2283955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cohort Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 @Cohort - possibly, and you make a good argument, but I personally don't find it very.... satisfying. One Legion getting lost in the warp is a lot of stuff to lose. Two is just being careless :P I also find it hard to reconcile "just getting lost" with Dorn's musings about the two lost legions being "warnings that could have been heeded". If they were accidentally lost it has little/no bearing on Horus' rebellion, nor does it strike me as being a useful warning for anything except getting better Navigators ;) But losing two legions TO the warp, not necessarily IN the warp, does have bearing on the rebellion. Horus was tainted by the chaos gods, "the warp". Dorn didn't know about the gods; he didn't know what was in the warp. That's the danger that should have been heeded. I do not think the LotD are one of the Two. I've been reading about the Fire Hawks for like, maybe the last decade. They've never been hinted at even once as being a lost legion. I just don't buy it. And the reference to the two statues "standing like ghosts" is just make their absence more unnatural and eerie, not to hint at any connection to the LotD. And once again, Sigismund is hardcore. He'd call anyone who broke away from the crusade a "traitor". Furthermore, we know from many sources that all primarchs were found, reunited with their legions, and fought in the crusade. However, people still believe they weren't even found! How? We have two statues of them, other primarchs who remember them, and remember their names! They were found, dammit! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188996-two-unknown-legions/page/5/#findComment-2284182 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I do not think the LotD are one of the Two. I've been reading about the Fire Hawks for like, maybe the last decade. They've never been hinted at even once as being a lost legion. I just don't buy it. Sorry, you confused me now. You don't believe: -LotD = missing legion -LoTD = Fire Hawks -both ? And the reference to the two statues "standing like ghosts" is just make their absence more unnatural and eerie, not to hint at any connection to the LotD. Well, I understood that the "traitor's statues" where Horus, etc, draped in cloth (for the time being, as opposed to the 2 primarchs that had theirs removed), and those draped statues that looked like ghosts (???) I'm not a native english speaker, so maybe I'm losing some subtle meaning in the text :P PS: I agree with all the rest. People, let's attain to the possibilities that fits in ALL "official" info provided - and please correct me ASAP if I forget this rule myself too ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188996-two-unknown-legions/page/5/#findComment-2284205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laeradex Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 an interesting point that was brought up in a SW thread about prospero. Linky Perhaps this wasn't the first Legion Russ had been sent to destroy.... when i first read this, i was like, no way, but then it all made sense... possible? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188996-two-unknown-legions/page/5/#findComment-2284235 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I do not think the LotD are one of the Two. I've been reading about the Fire Hawks for like, maybe the last decade. They've never been hinted at even once as being a lost legion. I just don't buy it. Sorry, you confused me now. You don't believe: -LotD = missing legion -LoTD = Fire Hawks -both I think he means that: The LotD = the Fire Hawks The Fire Hawks/LotD have never been hinted at as being a Lost Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188996-two-unknown-legions/page/5/#findComment-2284238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 an interesting point that was brought up in a SW thread about prospero. Linky Perhaps this wasn't the first Legion Russ had been sent to destroy.... when i first read this, i was like, no way, but then it all made sense... possible? Can you say for sure that there's a source for that, Prospero Burns or other book? Is that "perhaps" uncertainity by the poster or only irony? I'm far from reading Prospero Burns right now... :/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188996-two-unknown-legions/page/5/#findComment-2284241 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I know at least one of them actually got lost. It is one of the only logical conclusions. I really do find the idea of a legion of 10,000+ marines getting *lost* quite crazily silly. In the 31st millenium mankind has bridged the gap between stars, created post-human super warriors and is led by nothing less than a god incarnate, but still has unreliable sat nav. Nah, just getting lost isn't dramatic enough (or statistically probable IMO). For something to warrant a massive Legion cover up, it needs to be properly epic not just "turn right, 100 yards, mind the black hole, doh!" :) Really? It hink you are missing just how vast space is. 10,000 + warriors is nothing. We have more than 30 times that amount on our planet. Heck, we have more than that in a country. We have more than that in a state (USA). So I don't find it at all improbable that they got lost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188996-two-unknown-legions/page/5/#findComment-2284257 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laeradex Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Can you say for sure that there's a source for that, Prospero Burns or other book? Is that "perhaps" uncertainity by the poster or only irony? I'm far from reading Prospero Burns right now... :/ no, i'm afraid i cant. its speculation over there.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188996-two-unknown-legions/page/5/#findComment-2284314 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indigo Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I think he means that: The LotD = the Fire Hawks The Fire Hawks/LotD have never been hinted at as being a Lost Legion. My understanding was he thought LOTD = Fire Hawks = NOT a lost legion. My position is that the Fire Hawks story was a cheap excuse to come up with some fluff at the time and essentially wasted the mystery and awe of the LOTD. I don't believe the Fire Hawks are LOTD at all, therefore I certainly don't think the Fire Hawks are a lost legion. Re-reading the marine codex though I've just spotted something else in the LOTD description... ...Others consider the Legion to be an extension of the Emperor's superhuman will, time-lost saviours or even the vengeful spirits of dead Marines I paraphrased the last section but the bit in bold is word for word. Time-LOST saviours. The plot thickens :P Also, r.e. the quote about "Perhaps this wasn't the first Legion the SW had been sent to kill". If that were true then Marines killing Marines wouldn't be anathema. It clearly is up until the point Horus goes loco, strongly suggestion Marines have never killed Marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188996-two-unknown-legions/page/5/#findComment-2284351 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Also, r.e. the quote about "Perhaps this wasn't the first Legion the SW had been sent to kill". If that were true then Marines killing Marines wouldn't be anathema. It clearly is up until the point Horus goes loco, strongly suggestion Marines have never killed Marines. Talking about it, there was any more hints about: - What caused the Emperor's Children to be reduced to small numbers, as mentioned in Horus Rising? - What's the Dark Angels mistery? Cause yeah, brother vs brother could be considered an anathema to marines that never had done it before - and if the envolved legions keep secret about it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188996-two-unknown-legions/page/5/#findComment-2284367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Hey! Who can, please take a look at page 7 of Codex Ultramarines (40k 2nd edition) ;) I don't think we can take much of that in consideration, cause of most of the text seems to be already retconned at the Horus Heresy books, but it's very, very interesting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188996-two-unknown-legions/page/5/#findComment-2284399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cohort Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I meant that I don't think the LotD are one of the lost legions. I believe they are the Fire Hawks, because that's what I have read for the last decade. And about them being "Time-lost", the Fire Hawks were, for a long time. I thought the draped statues in Lightning Tower were the two lost primarchs, not Horus. Am I wrong? I don't have a copy of it to listen to. I think the Children were reduced during the war on Murder and fighting against the Laeran. The only DA mystery I know of is if Luther was loyal and Lion'el was the traitor, or if Luther is still alive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188996-two-unknown-legions/page/5/#findComment-2284443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I thought the draped statues in Lightning Tower were the two lost primarchs, not Horus. Am I wrong? I don't have a copy of it to listen to. Here's the text in context: The second and eleventh plinths had been vacant for a long time. No one ever spoke of those two absent brothers. Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded? Sigismund had urged that the effigies of the traitors also be removed from the Investiary. He had offered to do the work himself. This, Dorn recalled, had made the Emperor laugh. For the time being, the traitors had been shrouded. Their towering, draped forms seemed like phantoms in the blue darkness. I think reproducing this part here still lies are the realm of fair use, no? I think the Children were reduced during the war on Murder and fighting against the Laeran. I don't think so, if I remember correctly, the comment about the shortage of Children happens way before the Murder incident. The only DA mystery I know of is if Luther was loyal and Lion'el was the traitor, or if Luther is still alive. I'm talking about the reason why the Dark Angels deeds during the Crusade were deleted. It is told in the old fluff, dunno if it's being retconned in HH, though. (sorry that I didn't explained better in my last post; I didn't remember what exactly it was, just that was something untold about DA :P now I just found the reference to it) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188996-two-unknown-legions/page/5/#findComment-2284452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cohort Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Thanks, Verythrax. So, I guess there were "traitors", and didn't just "get lost". I still think their fall is tied to the warp. It has to be; that's the warning that wasn't heeded. Oh, I didn't know about that. Thinking about it, I wouldn't be surprised if Fulgrim culled his own legion. I'd guess its because the DA are very, very secretive. They probably deleted the records themselves after Luther's betrayal to hide the existence of any of the Fallen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188996-two-unknown-legions/page/5/#findComment-2284463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 - What caused the Emperor's Children to be reduced to small numbers, as mentioned in Horus Rising? - What's the Dark Angels mistery? The Emperors Children suffered a major geneseed flaw that devastated their numbers early in their history, before even being reunited with their primarch. It is why they are so obssessed with perfection. This is outlined breifly in Fulgrim. The DA mystery is that half of the legion rebelled and half remained loyal. Most of the traitors were destroyed, but those that escaped were (and still are) living testaments to the DA's failure and shame. Just clearing things up :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188996-two-unknown-legions/page/5/#findComment-2284465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 - What caused the Emperor's Children to be reduced to small numbers, as mentioned in Horus Rising? - What's the Dark Angels mistery? The Emperors Children suffered a major geneseed flaw that devastated their numbers early in their history, before even being reunited with their primarch. It is why they are so obssessed with perfection. This is outlined breifly in Fulgrim. The DA mystery is that half of the legion rebelled and half remained loyal. Most of the traitors were destroyed, but those that escaped were (and still are) living testaments to the DA's failure and shame. Just clearing things up :P Great, thanks ;) It shots down another 2 theories :D PS: wait... so brother fought brother before, and treason already happened! So a tree that falls without anyone to hear it make no sound, afterall - at least in 30k :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188996-two-unknown-legions/page/5/#findComment-2284468 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 - What caused the Emperor's Children to be reduced to small numbers, as mentioned in Horus Rising? - What's the Dark Angels mistery? The Emperors Children suffered a major geneseed flaw that devastated their numbers early in their history, before even being reunited with their primarch. It is why they are so obssessed with perfection. This is outlined breifly in Fulgrim. The DA mystery is that half of the legion rebelled and half remained loyal. Most of the traitors were destroyed, but those that escaped were (and still are) living testaments to the DA's failure and shame. Just clearing things up :D Great, thanks ;) It shots down another 2 theories :D PS: wait... so brother fought brother before, and treason already happened! So a tree that falls without anyone to hear it make no sound, afterall - at least in 30k ;) I think you misunderstand, the DA thing happened after the DA arrived late to the Seige of Terra :P Again, just clearing things up :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188996-two-unknown-legions/page/5/#findComment-2284491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 I think you misunderstand, the DA thing happened after the DA arrived late to the Seige of Terra :P Again, just clearing things up :D :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188996-two-unknown-legions/page/5/#findComment-2284495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cohort Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 I forgot about that. I just remembered my IA: Emperor's Children; they did suffer from a fatal flaw early on. Makes you wonder, if they had one, and someone fixed it, why couldn't they fix another flawed legion? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188996-two-unknown-legions/page/5/#findComment-2284514 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 I forgot about that. I just remembered my IA: Emperor's Children; they did suffer from a fatal flaw early on. Makes you wonder, if they had one, and someone fixed it, why couldn't they fix another flawed legion? Because technology gets lost very easily :angry: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188996-two-unknown-legions/page/5/#findComment-2284539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
pueriexdeus Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 Here is what really happened. Rick Priestly and the original GW conspirators sat down to list the possible names of 40K Legions. Number's 2 and 11 were just not cool enough and got erased. Well I'm sure you can figure out what happened next, a few pints, several dart games, some more pints, and they forgot to get back to them. Now early the next day an appointment was set with the printer, reams of paper, pictures and lists of one kind or another filled the editors desk, and the list simply got printed as is. Go ahead, look at it, you can see the smudging of the pencil eraser. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188996-two-unknown-legions/page/5/#findComment-2284594 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indigo Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 Go ahead, look at it, you can see the smudging of the pencil eraser. I sadly suspect the bulk of what you said was true. R.e. that last line though, I have often thought the smudging looks like something you can do in photoshop and if it was possible to scan it in and see if it's possible so see a pattern in the smudging and undo it. If we could I bet it doesnt give the name of the legion but instead just an easter egg "well done" type message <_< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188996-two-unknown-legions/page/5/#findComment-2284811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cohort Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 Does anyone have a scan of the old RT book? I've got to see this for myself. EDIT: I checked out the old RT book, and there's not a legion listing in there. Where was the first one printed? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188996-two-unknown-legions/page/5/#findComment-2285558 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 Here is what really happened. Rick Priestly and the original GW conspirators sat down to list the possible names of 40K Legions. Number's 2 and 11 were just not cool enough and got erased. Well I'm sure you can figure out what happened next, a few pints, several dart games, some more pints, and they forgot to get back to them. If Ultramarines, Word Bearers, and Alpha Legion were cool enough, I shudder to think what they erased... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/188996-two-unknown-legions/page/5/#findComment-2285948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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