Power Weapons for Tactical squads

[Warprat]

Power weapons are a bit of a disappointment to me. Not quite hitty enough against high toughness targets. But a power weapon with plasma squad is OK. Your almost always going to want to stand still, or move and rapid fire. Your going to get charged, more than being the charger. A power weapon gives you a chance to hit first, and then die...

 

Warprat ;)

[minigun762]

This is particularly true of sergeants, who are veterans with enough experience and leadership skills, they're assigned to lead less experienced brethren to battle. In other words, sergeants have a much higher responsibility then most other members of the 1st company. For them to stoop so low so as to use some weapon "because it's their preference" is unacceptable to a serious marine force.

 

Fluff wise, I think that Power Weapons would be much more common as they're a better multi-tasking weapon whereas the Power Fist seems to be purely about killing tanks or MCs.

 

Then again if we built a fluffy army, it wouldn't revolve around 3 units spammed over and over. :D

[greatcrusade08]

in every story ive read the sergeants and vets usually carry PW's, fists are few and far between usually replacing a lost limb

[Koremu]

in every story ive read the sergeants and vets usually carry PW's, fists are few and far between usually replacing a lost limb

Sure, but in the fluff Power Axes are good at cutting through vehicles (comparative to Power Swords).

[mowglie]

Then again if we built a fluffy army, it wouldn't revolve around 3 units spammed over and over. :)

 

I have a bit of a problem with that in 40k. You look at the codex astartes and it's supposed to be the most awesomesauce manual for waging war that exists.

 

Then you look at fluffy options like e.g. sergeant with bp/chainsword, devastator squads with very mixed weapons, etc that totally suck on the table.

 

I think GW should go to a little effort to make the mechanics reflect the fluff... Even if the fluffy option is not the absolute indisputable best (as the codex astartes is supposed to be), then at least it should be functional.

 

On-topic, I generally go for fists in tacsquads because I don't like paying to lose bolter shots for extra attacks in the unlikely circumstance where I get assaulted by something that the squad can actually handle (and power weapon + bolter/combi-bolter is a pretty poor combination for the points you pay).

 

A power weapon says "I'm going to deal you a wound before you strike, so long as you strike after I4"

 

A power fist says "You'd better wipe me out, or I'm insta-deathing your T4 IC."

 

Your opponent has to play around a power fist much more than they do a power weapon, imo. The PW makes them marginally better at something that they still suck at. The fist gives them a dangerous ability that they did not have at all before.

[Gothical]

On-topic, I generally go for fists in tacsquads because I don't like paying to lose bolter shots for extra attacks in the unlikely circumstance where I get assaulted by something that the squad can actually handle (and power weapon + bolter/combi-bolter is a pretty poor combination for the points you pay).

 

A power weapon says "I'm going to deal you a wound before you strike, so long as you strike after I4"

 

A power fist says "You'd better wipe me out, or I'm insta-deathing your T4 IC."

 

Your opponent has to play around a power fist much more than they do a power weapon, imo. The PW makes them marginally better at something that they still suck at. The fist gives them a dangerous ability that they did not have at all before.

 

When taken in isolation this is true.

 

I'm a player who prefers Power Weapons to Power Fists in my Tactical and Devastator squads. The ability to swing at Initiative is greatly valued when I play anything that's *not* a Marine, and when playing Marines it's still ok - not as powerful as a Fist, but still kills more effectively than a chainsword. The rest of the squad is equally generalist, with a Plasma Gun and Missile Launcher.

 

But then I never run these units on their own - I have something waiting nearby with Thunder Hammers, Power Fists or Meltaguns, so I am simply not concerned about an IC or Monster or Dreadnought engaging the unit in hand-to-hand.

 

ICs are less of a worry - the Power Weapon may inflict a wound (depending on Inv. saves - or direct all attacks at the IC's retinue), but then (as I don't use Vulkan in my Salamanders) the squad can elect to fall back from combat (almost certainly lost) and fill the squad/monster/character full of plasma and krak missiles.

 

If I would lose too many men by this method, then I pile whatever support unit is nearby into the fray - usually a Command Squad or Terminator Squad, providing me with far more PF attacks than the lone Sergeant brings, making it far more useful. And since the "support" units are all units I want to bring to the table anyway it's not like I'm losing out with this method.

 

So...PWs because they're cheaper, handy against non-Marines and I just don't need the Fist in the squad.

[Gaz1858]

I go for fists as i take Ironclads and more than once has an unfortunate Tactical squad with PW found itself unable to do anything to it. The Sgt has to take a power weapon of some sort IMO, i go for the Fist

[Cadarn]

Unless we're talking space wolves, or some particularly distinguished heroes (such as Calgar, Vulkan, etc.), Space Marines should have whatever gear best suits the current situation. Codex Space Marines are an organized army, the best of the best troops. Their veterans are proficient with every weapon and can make great use of whatever weapon best suits the mission at hand.

 

This is particularly true of sergeants, who are veterans with enough experience and leadership skills, they're assigned to lead less experienced brethren to battle. In other words, sergeants have a much higher responsibility then most other members of the 1st company. For them to stoop so low so as to use some weapon "because it's their preference" is unacceptable to a serious marine force.

 

Those veterans who find themselves unable to adapt to every style of combat are usually seconded into Sternguard (for those more inclined to shoot stuff) or Vanguard (for those more inclined to assault thingies), which is where they can have a pick of gear and use whatever they want.

 

Disagree on this. For starters, take a look in C:SM and the illustration of the whole of the UM 2nd company. Each of the sergeants is equipped differently, indeed as are the squads. And my sergeants can still adapt. While they may only have a power weapon, they may also have a plasma pistol or melta bombs. The specialist may have a melta or plasma gun. The tactical squad as a whole is the weapon. Yes, without a PF they will suffer if they get charged by a monstrous creature or a Walker, but then it is my responsibility, and that of the rest of my army to make sure that doesn't happen.

 

Sure, but in the fluff Power Axes are good at cutting through vehicles (comparative to Power Swords).

 

That's a hangover from 2nd edition where Power Axes were the premier anti-vehicle weapon, as strength was not the defining factor in a weapon's armour penetration but a bizzare combination of dice including D4, D12, D10 etc. At least one of which you were sure not to own.

[Koremu]

Sure, but in the fluff Power Axes are good at cutting through vehicles (comparative to Power Swords).

 

That's a hangover from 2nd edition where Power Axes were the premier anti-vehicle weapon, as strength was not the defining factor in a weapon's armour penetration but a bizzare combination of dice including D4, D12, D10 etc. At least one of which you were sure not to own.

I'd reflip that and say those rules were there because Power Axes were supposed to be better at tearing through armour. And I played from RT days, so yes I do remember the dice. In fact I have the second edition wargear book on the shelf. Power Axes had an AP of D6+D12+6 (when wielded in both hands) compared to the Power Swords 2D6+5

[Giga]

For starters, take a look in C:SM and the illustration of the whole of the UM 2nd company. Each of the sergeants is equipped differently, indeed as are the squads.

It's just a showcase. It's there to look fancy, so it needs to have as much stuff on show as possible.

 

Codex marines are a prolific elite army. They are issued their equipment. They aren't a bunch of drunken barbarians who use certain weapons because "it suits their style and personal history". Codex marines aren't even the sort of dudes that have things like "style" - they do whatever they need to do in order to utterly, mercilessly crush an opponent in a quick, surgical strike. The only exceptions to this rule are the most important guys in a chapter, such as captains, chapter masters, librarians, chaplains, and masters of the forge, and even they have certain equipment they are required to take.

 

Of course, there probably are some codex sergeants around who use the equipment they "like" the most (Pasanius and his heavy flamer come to mind), but they are rare exceptions, rather then the rule. Having one sergeant who uses some outlandish equipment combo is alright, if you want to add some flavor to the squad at question and to show this one rebellious guy who is tolerated because he gets the job done, but having sergeants go around picking their own gear "because it's their style" sounds like something a marine who respects the codex astartes would never do. Again, it's one of the things that makes Space Wolves unique.

[Koremu]

See, I prefer the concept that the Sergeants are sufficiently respected and honoured that the Company Captain trusts them to select their own wargear (and the special/heavy weapon combo for their squad) to fit the mission profile.

 

The Captain might say something along the lines of "Veteran Brother Metli, take your squad and prepare to scourge the upstart xenos from their pitiful fortifications", whereupon the Vet Sgt assigns a Flamer to one of his guys, and picks up a Combi-Flamer and a Power Fist and heads out.

 

Captains don't really need to micro-manage their company. Subordinates are there to handle most things like that, while the Captain observes and retains oversight - while of course still being able to step in full force if necessary.

[Giga]

@ Koremu

 

What you suggest here is exactly the sensible, codex astartes thing to do.

 

The sergeant picks (or is issued) the gear that best suits the mission at hand. He doesn't take a plasma pistol and a chainsword "because it's his style". He takes a combiflamer and a powerfist, because that's what best suits an assault on a fortification.

[minigun762]

The sergeant picks (or is issued) the gear that best suits the mission at hand. He doesn't take a plasma pistol and a chainsword "because it's his style". He takes a combiflamer and a powerfist, because that's what best suits an assault on a fortification.

 

Yeah but in the BL novels, it seems like every third Marine has a special weapon hand crafted by master so and so due to incredible feats of mega-honor on the battlefield of bad place and said Marine wouldn't dare use anything else besides his uber crafted ancient relic of importance. :D

[Koremu]

The sergeant picks (or is issued) the gear that best suits the mission at hand. He doesn't take a plasma pistol and a chainsword "because it's his style". He takes a combiflamer and a powerfist, because that's what best suits an assault on a fortification.

 

Yeah but in the BL novels, it seems like every third Marine has a special weapon hand crafted by master so and so due to incredible feats of mega-honor on the battlefield of bad place and said Marine wouldn't dare use anything else besides his uber crafted ancient relic of importance. :D

I think that cheapens the import and significance of them myself...

[minigun762]

I think that cheapens the import and significance of them myself...

 

I agree 100%

Its annoying when Scout Bob has a 9,000 year old Power Sword because he hopped over a stream and punched an otter in the face.

[mowglie]

The sergeant picks (or is issued) the gear that best suits the mission at hand. He doesn't take a plasma pistol and a chainsword "because it's his style". He takes a combiflamer and a powerfist, because that's what best suits an assault on a fortification.

 

Yeah, I very strongly agree with this.

 

I take the ultramarines illustration in the codex to be all the guys posing with their favourite guns, not with exactly the wargear they'd get deployed with - there are too many "wrong" combinations there - particularly in the devastator squads.

 

The "fluffy" thing to do is to build your list to crush your tainted, heretical, xeno opponent beneath your power-armoured boots. I'd expect the codex astartes to require no less of me! ;)

[IanV]

Just a thought:

 

W/o the charge LC=PW,

 

W/ the charge LC>PW, plus you've got your off-hand available for combi-bolters.

 

W/ models with greater than 2 A base LC>PW.

 

I really don't see the point of taking PWs. Better looking? ;)

[Koremu]

Just a thought:

 

W/o the charge LC=PW,

 

W/ the charge LC>PW, plus you've got your off-hand available for combi-bolters.

 

W/ models with greater than 2 A base LC>PW.

 

I really don't see the point of taking PWs. Better looking? :P

Tactical (or Bike, or Devastator) Sergeants can't take Lightning Claws.

 

Or Thunder Hammers.

[IanV]

Ummmmm....

 

By the power of Jesus, I see the light!!!

 

But seriously, this pretty much tells the whole world that I use nothing but fists and couldn't care less for PWs :jaw:

 

Continue the discussion brothers while I slowly sulk away...

[CF Scout]

For my Crimson Fists:

My Primary Power Weapon in a squad is almost always a Power Fist, hell I have a Scout Sergeant with a Power Fist. Auxiliary Power Weapons in squads are Power weapons.

 

Basically all my Squad Leaders get Power Fists. Chaplains, Librarians (force weapon), Company Champions, Tech marines, all get power Weapons. My Captains tend to have Power fists, but I am beginning to lean toward giving them thunder hammers.

 

The only gross exception to this is my standard Terminator Squad, where the sergeant has a Power Weapon.

 

My non-counter assault scouts have normal scout weapons, and my Dev Squad sergeant no power weapon, just a storm bolter.

 

My Standard Bearer also has a Power Fist.

 

For my Emperor's Children:

Power Weapons all the way, I take advantage of the initiative bonus, and am really reluctant to lose that. I will get fancy with lightning claws on some of them.

 

Seeing as they have all been taken to the warp (dumped in green stuff to be stripped, repainted, and rebuilt), I am very tempted to go crazy with the pairs of lightning claws (Lord, Terminators, Chosen). Then make up for their loss of firepower with Noise Marine support, A Las Pred, A Dakka Pred, Landraider (dedicated for the termies), and a vindicator.

 

But then again, I play two marine armies, and want them to be very different so one is very powerfisty, one is very power weapony, to suit their different styles, and my choice on how to differentiate them.