A "Crazy Like A Fox" Daemon Hunter proposal

[Inquisitor Fox]

I was ruminating this idea around in my head the other day and thought I'd shoot it out on the boards to see if it has merit.

 

I propose the following theoretical listish organization of units for use in modern games:

 

HQ: Either Inquitor Lord w/ retinue or GK Hero w/ retinue

Elites: Unit of GKT

Troops: all units of IST's w/ melta and transport

FA: teleporting PAGK

HS: Land Raider(s) if applicable

 

The theory is this: Field experience has suggested that mechanization of small IST squads with melta's pops enemy transports and is mobile enough to score. In fact, it has been mentioned (often by number6) that in a sense the IST's are more or less the only real valid troop choice. My own thoughts has been a teleporting unit of PAGK's could easily contest enemy objectives at the last minute, and have a better than average chance at having at least a single model present within scoring range of the objective by the last turn to contest any applicable enemy held objectives.

 

I mentioned in a thread in the Army List section that most bat reps I've read have objective based games usually at a tie or within one objective... utilizing this twin approach of scoring with cheap units and contesting via teleport should help give Daemon Hunters a much needed edge. Previously all thought seemed to point towards the FA entry of Grey Knights as being "wasted or not as efficient as a troops entry," however this line of thought ignored the scoring nature of IST's and was trying for a pure Grey Knights list.

 

It seems that with the gradual evolution of thought that pure Grey Knights lists don't work as well now, that the role of the PAGK's themselves should be re-examined.

 

Thoughts and debate?

[ntgcleaner]

Although I certainly do not have as much experience as, say, you and number6, I would agree that this is a good means to certain games. I don't think it would be viable to all comers and I will try to explain why:

 

Against shooty armies:

The bad:

Of course, this all depends on the setup, but let's say you are playing Eldar or Tau, or something of that nature. You have maybe 2 or 3 rhino's running around trying to contest territories and kill their big baddies. If all goes well in your favor (first turn, you don't blow up, even second turn...) you have a very good chance of getting to their expensive units... BUT you have an even better chance of getting blown to pieces before you can even reach their Railguns or Bright Lances. I don't know if you are deepstriking your terminators also, but in my experience, with shooty armies like these, when you deep strike, the terminators just look dumb standing there for a turn getting shot at with things like wraithlords (I think) or broadsides/crisis suits (force a 4+?!?)! Worse case scenario, you lose 1-2 Rhino's per turn which makes your IST's footslog... and we all know what happens to them when they can only move 6", especially against such a fast army.

 

The good:

Let's assume coming to the end of the turns, you still have one MAYBE two rhinos and you may have gotten some good shots off at their baddies. You still have to worry about getting to the right place and getting their guys off of the objective. So, you DS your PAGK and maybe your GKT's and if all goes well, you destroy anything standing just by shooting (If not, you should have SOMETHING left over to MSA (Full turn of Moving shooting and Assault) next turn... So now you hold the territory that was theirs from the beginning, or early in game. Now, you have to worry about making sure your Rhino's don't die trying to get to the other territory. Let's assume you did and you disembark and use the rhino for pure cover. Great, if we're at the end of the rounds, this sounds like a great idea.

 

Against Assaulty

 

The Bad:

with these Assaulty Armies, you should be able to almost out-maneuver them, though I can't say that they wont have plenty of guns to take out those rhinos pretty quickly. IMO, cheap units are cheap because they aren't as tough. But, you can move around and of course use cover, just watch out for those surprise units that have a quick way to get to you. Everyone prepares for Mech lists with 5ed., so you will be seeing a bunch of assaulty squads with lots of stuff that can kill you if they get to you and they will use your rear armor no matter what when they assault. If you ever happen to pop your head out of your rhino, I would assume that most assaulty units would be able to smash all over them, which leaves it difficult to put your Rhino in a perfect spot to still get those melta gun shots on their big boys.

 

The Good:

your maneuverability with a meched list. Move around, get out of the way, TANK SHOCK! (At extreme precautions) and just try to run circles around them. When time comes, your DSing units will be able to DS with little to no worry (if you position them right) of being killed. Sure, Assault me all you want! Just make sure its, at least, on my power armor! Your terminators, whatever you decide to do will take out any squad in front of them.

 

 

How I would modify (for my taste)

 

Let's assume points allowed, I can do what I'm about to suggest. If you are solely trying to take objectives, Make sure you have at least one LR. This guy can also be GREAT cover for your Rhino. Stuff the LR full of Terminators and your BC and assist your Rhino(s) in doing their job (hopefuly we can field 2 in a 1500). If you really want to DS your PAGK, Make sure your LR and Rhino clear the spot of something that can strip your PAGK on landing, then rush to the other end of the table. Remember, DSing can make a beautiful silver unit look dumb, especially when you are in rapidfire range... Use your LR and Termies to assault something that can potentially take out your Rhino, these termies MAY be sacrificial. Get them to something that WILL take your rhino(s) out before your rhino crosses their path, if nothing more than to tie that unit up until the Rhino passes safely... kind of like a better smoke launcher, but it's more of an 'insta-save'.

 

- OR -

 

Stuff your LR chalk full of a 10Pack (PAGK), and don't DS them (I know the whole purpose is to make a reason to make DSing PAGK's useful... but I really don't see it when you can move 10 at a time and still be able to shoot and assault). Just make them another scoring unit on the table right off the bat. Play around in cover for a while taking pot shots at the baddies, assault if you NEED to, but ultimately, use them for clearing off the objective. Remember the Grenades on your Justicar, JIC (just in case) they are the position to use them effectively - It will be good to have those I would imagine. Your LR is basically taking all of the fire (Hopefuly) while your Rhino's can get into position to take out other tanks with their meltas. IMO, 8/10 IST's are almost useless... besides giving those two meltas a couple wounds to shrug off. Take out the big guys until the last minute, or until you need your GKT's to DS onto the table and create more distractive cannon fodder. Hopefuly, they can live through a round of fire and, if we're lucky, be able to MSA (A full turn of Move Shoot AND Assault) something! I have DS'ed my Terminators (usually 6) in every game I've played and they have done one thing for me: DESTROYED full units, one after the other.

 

A couple of personal notes: I HATE taking less than 10 PAGK's and more than 6 IST's. I Always DS my Termies, and because of careful positioning and fairly good scatter, they always come through for me. They are a HUGE obstacle for ANY army to get through and if they are ignored for any reason, that opponent will pay. Sometimes 6 Termies is 1 too many. Maybe consider taking 5 so after you drop the 10pack off at their destination, the LR can swing by and take them wherever... assuming it's still alive.

 

I actually would love to hear what you think of this, since this would technically be my first "written tactica"... If we want to take it that far.

[number6]

I think the idea is totally viable. In the armies I've been playing, however, I never seem to have the points available for more than 1 unit of PAGKs. I mean, if I'm taking one land raider, I have to take two just for redundancy. That's a big chunk of points outside of the required 3+ IST Troops selections. So the best I've been able to do is take 1 unit of power-armoured GKs, and I almost always take them 5 models w/2 pscyannons for two reasons.

 

1. To provide a bit more shooting to the army. Very little long-range firepower, which is problematic. :D

2. To sit on a home objective and score it. ISTs need to be moving around and, assuming any survive, are usually only able to contest/claim objectives late game. Having one in hand from the get-go frees up the rest of the army to kick ass from turn 1.

 

I don't know what to do to get around this problem. If you're not inducting IG, you pretty much have to take 2 raiders. If you're inducting IG, you have to spend enough points to get a decent platoon, a selection of heavy weapons, and chimeras. Pretty soon, your points are all spent again. :(

[Aidoneus]

So, INP, you're suggesting something like the following (just to get a concrete example of your concept):

BC: psycannon

4 GKT: psycannon

 

6 identical squads of...

6 IST: 2 melta

Rhino:

 

6 FAGK: 2 psycannons

 

8 FAGK: Incinerator

 

By my math, this should come out to 1500pts exactly (assuming you use the 35pt Rhinos in the IA2 update). It boasts 6 mounted, vehicle-killing, scoring units as well as 3 deep-striking, infantry-killing units to contest.

 

On the whole, it seems like a viable idea. I'd have to try it out to see if the theory translates to actual play, but I can certainly see the merits. My one concern is that it is extremely limited against horde armies, particularly close combat ones, which would make many 'Nid and Ork builds highly problematic.

[Inquisitor Fox]

That's pretty close to my idea, Aidoneus, so that'd work just fine as a concept test :)

 

To up points (to say 1850 or 2000) I'd start adding Land Raiders to that proposed list, and/or a second Termie squad by reducing the size of the BC's retinue and shuffling them over into a second unit, and/or shaving down the IST's to buy a few more termies for that second squad.

 

Tactically though, the proposed list fits into my initial concept. On paper it seems anti-tank light (mostly due to reduced range), however we aren't necessarily going for tabling the opponent. Instead it's more a surgical strike and objective claiming army. I'm not sure how to get around the close combat horde army problem, besides possibly arming some of the IST squads with flamers as opposed to meltaguns. If we assign even one or two squads to flamer duty (leaving 4-5 anti-armor units and gaining 1-2 anti-horde units) that also free's up some points to play with, possibly buying a second incinerator for the 8 man Grey Knight unit.

 

EDIT: One additional thought is if we need to add the customary anti-deep striking Inquisitor w/ firebase unit as a second HQ or Elites choice. This would be theoretically in the more enlarged version with the extra points, though I think with the concept those extra points may be better spent on additional Terminator units.

[number6]

If either of you two get games in under this concept (I am unlikely to do so anytime soon what with me taking my Tau army to a Con next month and with Adepticon following up after), do please post your results and continued ruminations.

 

My concern is actually not the anti-armour part. I think that's OK. What I think the army lacks is ranged fire support and protection for the combat troops. Perhaps these aren't as limiting as I am prone to believe?

[Inquisitor Fox]

Unfortunately I simply don't have the models to test it at all :cuss I've got 5 Terminators w/ 2 psycannons, 40 ISTs (2 meltaguns, 4 grenade launchers, 2 flamers currently.. plans to buy another 2 meltas), then vehiclewise a single Land Raider and one Chimera I could borrow from my Guard.

 

I might be able to sub enough Marines for a counts as for the PAGK if an opponent doesn't mind, but I just don't have the transports to actually test the idea myself. I'm not sure how I'd get my hands on that many Rhinos to try it out :) Maybe if I use cardboard boxes sized off my new Exorcist...

[Inquisitor Fox]

Alright, I've worked up a list that I have the models for, however I think it's a 'weaker' list than the list Aidoneus posted. The perk is, I can test this list if someone doesn't mind me substituting Space Marine models for Grey Knights. All vehicle point values using IA2.

 

HQ: Inq Lord w/ psycannon, emperor's tarot

3 gun servitors (2 hvy bolter, 1 multimelta), 2 sages, 2 mystics, 2 familiars

 

(HQ transport) Land Raider w/ extra armor, HK missile, pintle storm bolter, searchlight, smoke

 

Elites: 5 termies: brother captain w/ thunder hammer, psycannon, 1 termie w/ psycannon

 

Troops:

10 IST: vet srg w/ hellpistol, power weapon, 2 meltaguns, krak grenades

10 IST: vet srg w/ hellpistol, power weapon, 2 meltaguns, krak grenades

10 IST: vet srg w/ hellpistol, power weapon, 2 meltaguns, krak grenades

(Troop transport) Chimera w/ multilaser, hvy bolter, pintle hvy stubber, HK missile, dozer blade, extra armor

10 IST: vet srg w/ hellpistol, power weapon, 2 flamers, krak grenades

 

(intending to steal the Land Raider from the Inquisitor Lord)

 

FA:

6 GK w/ justicar, 2 psycannons

8 GK w/ justicar, 2 incinerators

 

Total Points: 1998

 

Yes, it's a worse list, but at least it'll let the concept be tested, right? Albeit with a bit of count's as and an opponent that doesn't mind...

 

Now to try and get a game or two this month *sigh* Oh the limited time from a newborn... :)

 

EDIT: adjusted grenade launchers to meltaguns as per later posts. Oh for the lack of additional vehicle models in my collection...

[number6]

Count the grenade launchers as meltas, and you're good to go. Drop some ISTs from those units -- starting with the vet sgt upgrades -- and give your Inquisitor a Chimera, too, while you're at it. ;)

[Inquisitor Fox]

The problem there is that a ) I would need a second Chimera for that, and b ) I need the ride for the Inq to be the Land Raider, otherwise without redoing the points and placement of the Termies I can't take one. Granted I could just call the 'thunder hammer' a 'nemesis force weapon' and call it good without having any points issues, and then reallocate the Land Raider to a Heavy Support choice..

 

Then it's just the problem of only owning one Chimera :)

 

I was figuring that if I was stuck fielding some of the IST's as foot sloggers, the longer range of the grenade launcher may help over the shorter range of the melta. Though I would need the melta for anti-tank issues... so you're probably right with that substitution. I'll make a note in the list :)

[Aidoneus]

Unfortunately, I think a very major and central part of your concept lies in having the ISTs be a mechanized force. Once you lose that, you're without a huge part of your strategy. So I'm not sure how telling that test would be.

 

Myself, I'm actually limited the other way: I have plenty of GKs and rhinos (assuming I proxy my Chaos rhinos), but I don't have enough ISTs. I may be able to borrow some regular guardsmen from my IG friend, and do it that way. We'll see. I unfortunately get to play very few actual games lately, so it's hard to tell.

[Inquisitor Fox]

The next major purchases for my Inquisition forces (WH and DH both) are scheduled to be two Chimeras and two Valkyries. If I sneak two box sets of Grey Knights into the lineup, then a few blisters, that should give me a relatively decent mechanization pool of possibilities.

 

Without having all four units be mechanized, the plan would be to do an infantry advance towards a close objective, swing the mechanized portions towards a further one, then contest with the deep struck contingent, in sort of a three arms approach. It probably won't be as good as a true all mechanized force though it should give the glimmers as to how effective the last minute contest via deep struck forces will be.

 

Sadly everything in time, especially with a adult with family budget as opposed to a college gamer budget :)