Gentlemanloser Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 they ruled (and rightly so as its a stupid idea) that units charging a squad with counter attack would not gain the bonuses from defensive grenades as well as the bonuses for charging... As opposed to a defending Squad with Defensive Grenades and Counter Attack getting the bonuses for defending and charging (now with added FC goodness!). It's still an ill thought, lop sided ruling. Heh, I wonder what a unit with Defenisve and Offensive Grenades, with Counter Attack and Furious Charge, in Cover, being charged from an attacker also in Cover, would get to use? ;) I wonder if Defenders Charging into Combat in Cover using Counter Atack should get the I penalty? ;) rune priests wouldnt hit themselves with the power as it isnt passing throug them. Doesn't have to pass through them. Just has to touch them. And the FAQ corroborates this. Don't misunderstand me, I'd never rule that it hurts the casting RP, but unlike Flamrs and the old version (Fury of the Anchients), JotWW can hurt friendly minis it 'touches'. And it touches the casting RP... That's the issue that needed clarifying. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189118-so-did-the-sw-faq-answer-your-questions/page/11/#findComment-2244816 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kjarl Bluetooth Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 rune priests wouldnt hit themselves with the power as it isnt passing throug them. Doesn't have to pass through them. Just has to touch them. And the FAQ corroborates this. Don't misunderstand me, I'd never rule that it hurts the casting RP, but unlike Flamrs and the old version (Fury of the Anchients), JotWW can hurt friendly minis it 'touches'. And it touches the casting RP... That's the issue that needed clarifying. Sorry - anyone who thinks that the RP who casts JoTWW needs to test as well needs to find another game to play. I suggest SNAP - try "rules lawyering" the rules for that!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189118-so-did-the-sw-faq-answer-your-questions/page/11/#findComment-2244844 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 rune priests wouldnt hit themselves with the power as it isnt passing throug them. Doesn't have to pass through them. Just has to touch them. And the FAQ corroborates this. Don't misunderstand me, I'd never rule that it hurts the casting RP, but unlike Flamrs and the old version (Fury of the Anchients), JotWW can hurt friendly minis it 'touches'. And it touches the casting RP... That's the issue that needed clarifying. Sorry - anyone who thinks that the RP who casts JoTWW needs to test as well needs to find another game to play. I suggest SNAP - try "rules lawyering" the rules for that!! I agree. However, when seeing your name, I can only think of a Space Wolf slashing and shooting across the battlefield while appearing to talk to himself about what he should be picking up at the grocery store for dinner. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189118-so-did-the-sw-faq-answer-your-questions/page/11/#findComment-2244851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 I think some folk missed the long geomoetry thread (either here or in OR?) about lines and touching. It was an issue bought up by JotWW a while ago, and to be honest it's more of a grey rules area that requires FAQing than Arjacs Thunderhammer (to which I think there is utterly no justification for it to be used as anything *other* than the shooting profile given. No Ranged TH attacks. Seriously, Melee properties don't apply to Ranged attacks.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189118-so-did-the-sw-faq-answer-your-questions/page/11/#findComment-2244864 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kjarl Bluetooth Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 However, when seeing your name, I can only think of a Space Wolf slashing and shooting across the battlefield while appearing to talk to himself about what he should be picking up at the grocery store for dinner. Sorry - don't get the joke. I think some folk missed the long geomoetry thread (either here or in OR?) about lines and touching. RAW vs RAI RAW = test to fall down his own hole RAI = he doesn't Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189118-so-did-the-sw-faq-answer-your-questions/page/11/#findComment-2244915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 However, when seeing your name, I can only think of a Space Wolf slashing and shooting across the battlefield while appearing to talk to himself about what he should be picking up at the grocery store for dinner. Sorry - don't get the joke. I think some folk missed the long geomoetry thread (either here or in OR?) about lines and touching. RAW vs RAI RAW = test to fall down his own hole RAI = he doesn't Actually the Geometry thread hes talking about showed how mathematically the line segment didnt touch him. Anyways, "Bluetooth" in the US atleast, is a wireless system that allows you to talk on your phone using a small ear peice, its handless and often times cant be seen by people behind you, or on the wrong side... wich results in others seeing you walking around a grocery store talking to the misses about what to bring home for dinner. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189118-so-did-the-sw-faq-answer-your-questions/page/11/#findComment-2244935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kjarl Bluetooth Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 In the immortal words of Homer Simpson..........Doh! Really slow on the uptake. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189118-so-did-the-sw-faq-answer-your-questions/page/11/#findComment-2245120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillen Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 Some of these needed to be cleared up. Ajacs hammer did not. It's a Thunderhammer that has a set profile to be thrown 6" with a stated stat line. Anyone saying it's stil got stun is being thick headed. It's that plain and simple. Read the intry and comprehend. It's still a strength 10 AP 1 so it gets a plus 1 on the damage chart. What more would you really need? And someone tring to say the power kills the caster is obviously a bad spot and looking to cause trouble, so a trouble maker at best. Really stupid at worst. What this thread was intended for was things not cleared up. And it has turned into a troll all you can whine bar. They should close this sucker already. Can anyone think of something that is really confusing and needs an answer from GW? I can't think of any. Some of these needed to be cleared up. Ajacs hammer did not. It's a Thunderhammer that has a set profile to be thrown 6" with a stated stat line. Anyone saying it's stil got stun is being thick headed. It's that plain and simple. Read the intry and comprehend. It's still a strength 10 AP 1 so it gets a plus 1 on the damage chart. What more would you really need? And someone tring to say the power kills the caster is obviously a bad sport and looking to cause trouble, so a trouble maker at best. Really stupid at worst. What this thread was intended for was things not cleared up. And it has turned into a troll all you can whine bar. They should close this sucker already. Can anyone think of something that is really confusing and needs an answer from GW? I can't think of any. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189118-so-did-the-sw-faq-answer-your-questions/page/11/#findComment-2245136 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ullr Direfang Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 They should close this sucker already. .... second the motion.... again.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189118-so-did-the-sw-faq-answer-your-questions/page/11/#findComment-2245147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 they ruled (and rightly so as its a stupid idea) that units charging a squad with counter attack would not gain the bonuses from defensive grenades as well as the bonuses for charging... As opposed to a defending Squad with Defensive Grenades and Counter Attack getting the bonuses for defending and charging (now with added FC goodness!). Are there any units with Defensive Grenades that also have the Counter Attack USR? Off of the top of my head I can't think of any. I can't see how this ruling is bad at all - a squad charges a unit and uses their Offensive Grenades to suppress the defending enemy as the charging unit assaults them. However, the defending unit surprises their attackers by hurtling themselves from cover and launching an unexpected counterattack. The unit that initiated the initial assault cannot now transition to their Defensive Grenades (if they happen to have them), to help protect them from the counterattack. This seems intuitive to me, and it follows RAW, as Defensive Grenades work against assaulting enemy units only (a counterattack is not an assault). V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189118-so-did-the-sw-faq-answer-your-questions/page/11/#findComment-2245459 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baragash Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Are there any units with Defensive Grenades that also have the Counter Attack USR? Off of the top of my head I can't think of any. Imperial Guard Veterans + Snare Mines + in range of Straken = FC, CA & DGs. There might be a way of doing it with the new Nid Codex if you get the right gribblies in range of the right MCs, I only skim read it last night though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189118-so-did-the-sw-faq-answer-your-questions/page/11/#findComment-2245604 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schertenleib Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 rune priests wouldnt hit themselves with the power as it isnt passing throug them. Doesn't have to pass through them. Just has to touch them. And the FAQ corroborates this. Don't misunderstand me, I'd never rule that it hurts the casting RP, but unlike Flamrs and the old version (Fury of the Anchients), JotWW can hurt friendly minis it 'touches'. And it touches the casting RP... That's the issue that needed clarifying. Sorry - anyone who thinks that the RP who casts JoTWW needs to test as well needs to find another game to play. I suggest SNAP - try "rules lawyering" the rules for that!! I agree. However, when seeing your name, I can only think of a Space Wolf slashing and shooting across the battlefield while appearing to talk to himself about what he should be picking up at the grocery store for dinner. Thanks Ramses. Now I have coffee on my monitor again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189118-so-did-the-sw-faq-answer-your-questions/page/11/#findComment-2245980 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Imperial Guard Veterans + Snare Mines + in range of Straken = FC, CA & DGs. That's what I was thinking of, but it was more a nod to the Future (and not sure if any Daemon Combination can get it as well :/). a counterattack is not an assault No, it's far better. Has all the benefits of assaulting, and ignores any Terrain and Defensive Grenades. Counterattack now has none of the drawbacks associated with Assaulting, but every single benefit (bar choosing who you attack of course! :P ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189118-so-did-the-sw-faq-answer-your-questions/page/11/#findComment-2246595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Counterattack now has none of the drawbacks associated with Assaulting, but every single benefit (bar choosing who you attack of course! :) ) Well, Counterattack is great, and is one of the best USR's to have. Since all Space Wolves get it, we have a huge advantage over many other forces. However, it is still usually better to assault, rather than counterattack, as an assaulting enemy still gets their extra attack for charging, too, and might get other benefits like Furious Charge (Orks and Blood Angels, for example). By the way, what are the drawbacks associated with Assaulting? V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189118-so-did-the-sw-faq-answer-your-questions/page/11/#findComment-2246630 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Assaulting through cover is one.... umm, cant really think of any others. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189118-so-did-the-sw-faq-answer-your-questions/page/11/#findComment-2246639 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarapham Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Assaulting through cover is one.... umm, cant really think of any others. Not having to worry about defensive grenades. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189118-so-did-the-sw-faq-answer-your-questions/page/11/#findComment-2246645 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Assaulting through cover is one.... umm, cant really think of any others. GM, I wouldn't think of that as a drawback to assaulting, so much as a benefit to being in cover. Depends on your perspective, I suppose. V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189118-so-did-the-sw-faq-answer-your-questions/page/11/#findComment-2246646 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 *Shrugs* Either way, getting the charge off doesnt have much in the way of drawbacks for anyone. Counter-attack you have to pass a leadership test atleast. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189118-so-did-the-sw-faq-answer-your-questions/page/11/#findComment-2246647 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildfire Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Anyways, "Bluetooth" in the US atleast, is a wireless system that allows you to talk on your phone using a small ear peice, its handless and often times cant be seen by people behind you, or on the wrong side... wich results in others seeing you walking around a grocery store talking to the misses about what to bring home for dinner. Ironically enough, it was named after Harold Bluetooth. Harold Bluetooth was a Danish king that conquered most of Denmark and Norway, if I recall correctly. I'm guessing that's where Kjarl got his name from. In any case, a drawback of assualting is that you can't use rapid-fire weapons prior to doing so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189118-so-did-the-sw-faq-answer-your-questions/page/11/#findComment-2246829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinkenheim Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 and a draw back of waiting to get counter attack is that you are subjected to a full round of incoming fire in the opponents turn. its very situational as to which is better, if something like a carnifex is approaching then sure sit back rapid fire with bolters and melta/plasma etc and then brace for a charge from a wounded beast... if orks or gaunts (many of which can have furious charge) are closing then charge them. deny units any advantages they wold gain from things like furious charge at any oppurtunity as it makes your life easier and you will take fewer wounds in the ensuing combat Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189118-so-did-the-sw-faq-answer-your-questions/page/11/#findComment-2247128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglespuss Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Exactly, just basic tactics. Charge is always better than charged. Defensive abilities are a bonus, but offence is the best defence etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189118-so-did-the-sw-faq-answer-your-questions/page/11/#findComment-2247197 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildfire Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Exactly, just basic tactics. Charge is always better than charged. Defensive abilities are a bonus, but offence is the best defence etc. Usually, but not always. Counter-charge makes double-tapping a rapid-fire weapon into enemy ranks to thin them out first a bit better than it is normally. For instance, I wouldn't want to send my 10 grey hunters into a squad of tactical termies. I'd rather rapid-fire my plasma guns and bolters into them, and then meet the charge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189118-so-did-the-sw-faq-answer-your-questions/page/11/#findComment-2247211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 It's situational. I'd not call receiveing a charge a drawback for a counter attackign unit, becuase in all likelyhood, you'd not just be sitting there doing nothing. Maybe you charged, assaulted and wiped out a squad last turn. Then you get charged in the next. The drawbaks for Asaulting are indeed Terrain (Difficult/Dangerous Terrain Tests, and the inherant I penalty) Defensive Grenades, and to a lesser extent Rapid Fire/Heavy Weapons. Counter attack offers all the benefits of Assaulting (Extra attack, Furious Charge) while ignoring those drawbacks above, *and* on top lets you also utilise Defensive Grenades to render your opponents charge worthless anyway (well the extra attack, not so worthless if they also have FC, but I hope you get the point!). It's just too much in favour of the defender, who gets absolutly everything, while GW ruled it away by not wanting the Attacker to be able to 'double dip' into offensive and defensive abilites. It's a silly, lop sided ruling that is only going to cause issues in the future. Especially if things like the Tyranid Codex can really utilise it... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189118-so-did-the-sw-faq-answer-your-questions/page/11/#findComment-2247956 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Reread the thread, saw who gets the abilities... *sighs*. IG need all the help they can get I suppose. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189118-so-did-the-sw-faq-answer-your-questions/page/11/#findComment-2248008 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freman Bloodglaive Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 If this game actually rewarded close range fire fights a la second edition, we'd spend a lot more time at 12 inches shooting the crap out of each other. As it's degenerated into a game of "run up and hit them with a pointy stick" we spend far more time in combat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189118-so-did-the-sw-faq-answer-your-questions/page/11/#findComment-2248160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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