Are Special Characters useful anymore

[Vassius]

I once used Ahriman in a Thousand Sons army, 1500pts, against Space Wolves. A nice fluff game. Worked very well. He and a squad of 8 Thousand Sons + the sorcerer were confronted with assault terminators and a unique Char from the Space Wolves codex, but I don´t remember the name.

Before they entered close combat, Ahriman and the sorcerer caused 3 Spawns, so the terminators weren´t useful.

So i must say, Ahriman is expensive, but in case he can use Gift of Chaos (and he can do that 3 times in a turn, very nice )

he gets his points fast and can prevent being killed with a powerfist.

[Cale]

The sniping of those Characters can be prevented if you keep notice where that Powerfist is hiding. Just keep him 3"+ away from that guy.

 

This doesn't work. The powerfist gets a pre-combat pile-in move, which it can pretty much always use to get close enough to your character, unless you base it with a guy from the squad--which requires your opponent to be an idiot.

 

So, no. Unless you're playing against idiots, you can't really protect your character from the fist.

 

I once used Ahriman in a Thousand Sons army, 1500pts, against Space Wolves. A nice fluff game. Worked very well. He and a squad of 8 Thousand Sons + the sorcerer were confronted with assault terminators and a unique Char from the Space Wolves codex, but I don´t remember the name.

Before they entered close combat, Ahriman and the sorcerer caused 3 Spawns, so the terminators weren´t useful.

So i must say, Ahriman is expensive, but in case he can use Gift of Chaos (and he can do that 3 times in a turn, very nice )

he gets his points fast and can prevent being killed with a powerfist.

 

How? Gift of Chaos goes off at the beginning of your turn, and has a range of 6". You'd have to be within 6" of three terminators at the beginning of your own turn to pull this off--which means your opponent was an idiot to not charge you with those Terminators on his prior turn and kill Ahriman with their wealth of powerfists before he had a chance to do it.

 

Again, a tactic that only works against idiots, and thus a tactic that isn't worth much at all.

[Persephone 66]

I'm actually using Fabius in the army I'm putting together. It's a medical/industrial rock themed list with noise marines so he's actually a perfect fit. I've got him enhancing 2 squads of CSM's. I like him.

 

I'm considering building another Chaos army around him that more accurately fits the fluff.

[Vassius]

Oh, the tactic I used with Ahriman was well planned. My opponent wanted to get in close combat with Ahriman, but i stopped his Landraider close enough, so he has to go with out it, and then Ahriman does the rest.

So I don´t think it´s an tactic against idiots, you can stop any Landraider with a matching weapon, (and I always have good luck doing this). So I think Ahriman could work very well, ´cause not everyone thinks he can be such a dangerous enemy.

They always fear the demon princes.

I don´t want to say Ahriman is good for his points, but if played in a good combination, he can do much damage.

My example should only prove this.

 

In the end, it is my opinion that all the Chaos unique Chars are not so good like their counterparts from the Space Marines.

Only Khârn seems to be worthy at all.

[Cale]

Stopping the Land Raider doesn't even come close to cutting it, Vassius. Even without a Raider, in order for it to work, one of two things would have to happen:

 

Either

A: You would have to bring Ahriman & co. to within 6" of the Terminators on your turn, then the Terminators would have to both refrain from moving to be more than 6" away from Ahriman and refrain from charging him. This would require your opponent to be an idiot.

 

or,

 

B: You would have to bring Ahriman & co to within 12" of the Terminators on your turn, then the Terminators would have to both move to within 6" of Ahriman and refrain from charging him. This would also require your opponent to be an idiot.

 

 

The point is that Ahriman has to be inside the Terminator's charge range at the beginning of your own turn for it to work. That means that your opponent could have charged on the turn before--or easily backed up out of range and still shot--but decided not to do so--and only an idiot would decide to do neither.

 

The only way you can force the Terminators to accept Gift of Chaos before getting into combat with Ahriman & co is to charge them with some other unit before or on the same turn as Ahriman gets within 12" of those terminators. Then, that unit has to hold out combat on your round and probably your opponent's round, too, before it comes back around to your turn and you have a chance to use Gift of Chaos on those Terminators. Locking in them in combat is the only way you can prevent them from charging or running away from Ahriman while he maneuvers himself to within 6" of them.

 

Gift of Chaos could be a very potent power if it were used during your shooting phase, or during your assault phase. Being used at the beginning of your turn, though, combined with its severely limited range, really neuters it. You really only get to use it in combat, and after the first round or two of combat at that.

 

You example doesn't "prove" anything, but it does suggest that either your opponent was an idiot--or that you were breaking a rule somewhere. It certainly doesn't demonstrate that Ahriman can deal a lot of damage, especially since killing three Terminators with four Gifts of Chaos is more than double the expected return (which is 1.22 spawned terminators)

 

 

Edit:

 

You could also, I suppose, roll Ahriman & co. up in a Rhino to within 6" of the Terminators. Then, they'd have to choose between charging your Rhino (and possibly ending up within 6" of Ahriman at the beginning of your next turn) or moving away from the Rhino to get out of range of the power (which should almost always be possible). It's fair to say that even an opponent who isn't an idiot might mess up and decide to charge the Rhino.

 

Of course, he might also just blow up the Rhino with shots, then charge Ahriman's squad, and if the Terminators manage to wreck the Rhino, they probably annihilate the whole squad by preventing their disembarkation--so, the Rhino option is not all that great, either.

[Ashe Darke]

Ohhh come on Cale that's not fair. The termies could fail a difficult terrain test and not get in :)

[Cale]

Maybe.

 

If Ahriman moved to within 6" of them, the probability of the Terminators failing to charge would be exceptionally low.

 

If Ahriman failed to move within 6", all the Terminators would have to do is not move to within 6" of Ahriman at all, which would make a lot of sense if they were going to end up in a situation where they'd be likely to fail their difficult terrain test to charge.

 

So, sure. I guess it's possible that GoC could be useful if you get sort of obnoxiously lucky, without requiring your opponent to be an idiot (though, depending on how lucky you'd have to get, it might require your opponent to make a mistake).

 

GoC is still an unexceptional power, and the 'tactic' of trying to get it off before you get into combat is still a lousy one.

[Ashe Darke]

I know, I was with you on it. GoC should not be a part of any reliable tactic.

[Vassius]

I know, I know. Gift of Chaos has a low range an it is not very good for a useful tactic. Thats why I play it only in fluff games.

Gift of Chaos can be a surprise for a opponent in a Thousand Sons squad, but not more.

 

Another thing I miss is a PSI Matrix for Ahriman or somthing that can block enemy psionic attacks. Every Space Marine scriptor has it, but the Master sorcerer of the Thousand Sons has none ? Such an abillity would make him more useful.

 

Or why can´t Abbadon or Typhus have a personal guard, like terminators with special rules. FnP fpr Typhus guard, for example. Or 3+ invurnable save for abbys guard ?

 

What do you think ?

[Cale]

I know, I was with you on it. GoC should not be a part of any reliable tactic.

 

Ah, sorry. I'm too literal, sometimes.

 

I know, I know. Gift of Chaos has a low range an it is not very good for a useful tactic. Thats why I play it only in fluff games.

Gift of Chaos can be a surprise for a opponent in a Thousand Sons squad, but not more.

 

Another thing I miss is a PSI Matrix for Ahriman or somthing that can block enemy psionic attacks. Every Space Marine scriptor has it, but the Master sorcerer of the Thousand Sons has none ? Such an abillity would make him more useful.

 

Or why can´t Abbadon or Typhus have a personal guard, like terminators with special rules. FnP fpr Typhus guard, for example. Or 3+ invurnable save for abbys guard ?

 

What do you think ?

 

I agree completely. Ahriman (and other chaos sorcerers as well) should have some psychic defense mechanism. Like Runes of Warding or the new Shadow in the Warp, maybe. It's a little sickening that they do not, when it seems like everyone else does...

 

I could see the personal guard thing, too, though I'm not sure why Abbadon's guard would have better invulnerable saves than he does. Maybe FNP, T5 terminators for Typhus (at 40 points, base, with normal options but no icons) and 4+ Invulnerables, A4, T5, I5 terminators (champions with all four marks) for about 60 or 70 points a piece for Abbadon with normal options (but again no icons).

 

Could be a cool way to make (those two) special characters (at least) more interesting. Probably wouldn't actually make them better, though, since their main drawbacks is already expense and needing a land raider for transport. Adding an expensive retinue would solve neither.

[chillin]

Another thing I miss is a PSI Matrix or somthing that can block enemy psionic attacks. Every Space Marine scriptor has it,

 

I have never understood why chaos, even TZ, master of sorcery, has no protection from enemy psy attacks ??

Ever s/m army has it but chaos, those closet to the warp and heritics who have no rules against of fear of psy pwrs and making packs with daemons and chaos gods have none, makes no sense.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Psychic powers also need to get stronger to justify how much psychic defense there is around. Consider doombolt. If you are fighting people with psychic defenses you are probably better off putting a combi weapon on your sorc instead.

[Ridmasta]

Ive just finished 2000pts of Black Legion, i built a custom abbadon at the start of december and decided he had had to have a whole army!

 

He is an absolute beast, but can get thunder hammered into paste :)

[Hellios]

You make good points cale but I fear you over simplify things. I can't say in this specific example but what if Ahriman wasn't the biggest threat. Also within a unit of thousand sons I personally would have no problem getting him into combat. 1ksons can take a beating and Ahriman and or the squad sorcerer can dish out a bit of pain and survive and then start spawning. I do agree if it was a shooting or assault phase power it would be more dangerous... then I could deepstike and spawn on the same turn ^^ rather than take a turn of fire before I spawn.

[Cale]

You make good points cale but I fear you over simplify things. I can't say in this specific example but what if Ahriman wasn't the biggest threat.

 

It's difficult to imagine the situation where there was sufficient threat, sufficiently placed to force terminators to within 6" of Ahriman yet dissuade them from charging him.

 

Can you think of even a single example of such a situation? If not, I think you might be over-complicating things =P.

 

Also within a unit of thousand sons I personally would have no problem getting him into combat. 1ksons can take a beating and Ahriman and or the squad sorcerer can dish out a bit of pain and survive and then start spawning. I do agree if it was a shooting or assault phase power it would be more dangerous... then I could deepstike and spawn on the same turn ^^ rather than take a turn of fire before I spawn.

 

Yes, and getting into combat is the best way to get GoC to work. The post to which I responded was talking about getting GoC off before getting into combat. Getting a few GoC's off once you're in combat is much easier.

 

Of course, one of the main points in the thread is that the SCs, excluding Abbadon, but including Ahriman, are pretty vulnerable to powerfists. It doesn't do you much good to get Ahriman into combat if he's just gonna get fisted to death before he has a chance to cast GoC anyway, and if you charge, they'll have two rounds of combat in which to do it before it comes back around to the beginning of Ahriman's turn.

[chillin]

, i built a custom abbadon He is an absolute beast, but can get thunder hammered into paste ;)

 

Don't put him in hth with a squad of T' hammers. Massed fire and/or avoidng is the way to deal with T' hammer squads, not trying to slug it out with them, even if you have abby.

Welcome to the Black Legion.

[Hellios]

You make good points cale but I fear you over simplify things. I can't say in this specific example but what if Ahriman wasn't the biggest threat.

 

It's difficult to imagine the situation where there was sufficient threat, sufficiently placed to force terminators to within 6" of Ahriman yet dissuade them from charging him.

 

Can you think of even a single example of such a situation? If not, I think you might be over-complicating things =P.

 

Also within a unit of thousand sons I personally would have no problem getting him into combat. 1ksons can take a beating and Ahriman and or the squad sorcerer can dish out a bit of pain and survive and then start spawning. I do agree if it was a shooting or assault phase power it would be more dangerous... then I could deepstike and spawn on the same turn ^^ rather than take a turn of fire before I spawn.

 

Yes, and getting into combat is the best way to get GoC to work. The post to which I responded was talking about getting GoC off before getting into combat. Getting a few GoC's off once you're in combat is much easier.

 

Of course, one of the main points in the thread is that the SCs, excluding Abbadon, but including Ahriman, are pretty vulnerable to powerfists. It doesn't do you much good to get Ahriman into combat if he's just gonna get fisted to death before he has a chance to cast GoC anyway, and if you charge, they'll have two rounds of combat in which to do it before it comes back around to the beginning of Ahriman's turn.

 

There are ways to avoid being fisted if you study the dark knowledge within the book of Magnus. Thousand sons often do far better receiving a charge than charging themselves.

 

I find it rather easy to imagine a situation where Terminators might do that, however this depends on the entire battle and can not be look at on an individual basis. In the Art of War if your opponent is to have choices as far as it is within your control you want all of them to be bad so whatever he decides it works in your favour (or so you hope) and those most skilled at this art make their opponents think they have the upper hand while they in fact walk into the grinder.

 

It's true I would never rely on being able to GoC any enemy before I had survived a world of hurt, but it is possible to pull of such manoeuvres without your enemy being an idiot... then again surviving a world of hurt is what the 1ksons do.

 

I also agree that firsts are dangerous by they can be neutralised. You say your opponent would be a fool to allow you to engage his fist with something else but wouldn't it also be fair to say your a fool to let him engage his fist with Ahriman it's all swings and roundabouts. You can't just consider two units out of two armies that is like comparing the usefulness of a part outside of a machine as a whole. I'm sure you know this already but everything has it ups and downs so it all depends on what your doing. Sometimes a 250pt Land Raider is worth throwing away at other times that will cost you a game.

[Ashe Darke]

Well if you hide him at the back, he's got 6 inches of movement where he has to get into base contact. It's gonna be hard to keep him 6 inches away from the enemy if attached to unit that is getting charged.

[Hellios]

Well if you hide him at the back, he's got 6 inches of movement where he has to get into base contact. It's gonna be hard to keep him 6 inches away from the enemy if attached to unit that is getting charged.

 

Defeating a tough opponent is rarely easy... that's why they are called tough.

[Cale]

There are ways to avoid being fisted if you study the dark knowledge within the book of Magnus.

 

What ways?

 

Thousand sons often do far better receiving a charge than charging themselves.

 

Sure.

 

I find it rather easy to imagine a situation where Terminators might do that, however this depends on the entire battle and can not be look at on an individual basis.

 

Name one. Provide whatever context is necessary to explain it.

 

In the Art of War if your opponent is to have choices as far as it is within your control you want all of them to be bad so whatever he decides it works in your favour (or so you hope) and those most skilled at this art make their opponents think they have the upper hand while they in fact walk into the grinder.

 

Yay, more vague hand-waves! Maybe someone won't notice that this has absolutely no content and accidentally think you're saying something worthwhile!

 

It's true I would never rely on being able to GoC any enemy before I had survived a world of hurt,

 

Good. There may be hope for you yet!

 

but it is possible to pull of such manoeuvres without your enemy being an idiot... then again surviving a world of hurt is what the 1ksons do.

 

Describe a method for doing so. Provide whatever context is necessary to explain it.

 

I also agree that firsts are dangerous by they can be neutralised. You say your opponent would be a fool to allow you to engage his fist with something else but wouldn't it also be fair to say your a fool to let him engage his fist with Ahriman it's all swings and roundabouts.

 

No, it wouldn't be fair to say that you're a fool to let him engage his fist with Ahriman. Actually, it's very difficult to prevent his fist from getting at Ahriman. Shockingly enough, the converse is also true: it's very easy to get your fist in a position where it can swing at Ahriman. It's not "all swings and roundabouts." The rules do, in fact, present a very lop-sided arrangement where it's easy to get powerfists against ICs and difficult for ICs to avoid them--which is exactly what I and lots of other people have been saying for a while.

 

 

You can't just consider two units out of two armies that is like comparing the usefulness of a part outside of a machine as a whole. I'm sure you know this already but everything has it ups and downs so it all depends on what your doing.

 

There are all sorts of legitimate comparisons you can make between units, whether in different armies or not. These can be made--and can provide useful results--within a wide range of contexts, including the context of an unknown opponent and even an unknown friendly army.

 

Again, you haven't managed to say much at all, here, but what seems to be your main point is actually, clearly wrong. You can consider two units out of two armies. You can do it and gain useful information about either or both units. The assertion that you can not is, frankly, laughable.

 

Sometimes a 250pt Land Raider is worth throwing away at other times that will cost you a game.

 

Obviously, if by "throwing away" you mean "placing in a position where it will likely die, but has some sufficient chance of doing something sufficiently important in the meantime."

 

 

You have basically provided no specific advise, or, really anything concrete at all here. You've asserted that fists can be avoided, but refuse to specify how. You've suggested that a good player only presents his opponent with options which are bad, which is true to a degree, but little more than psuedo-intellectual posing when presented without a specific context. You've made a couple of assertions which are incorrect.

 

You haven't, actually, provided anything of any value at all throughout your entire post. Why did you even bother writing it?

[Bodacious2182]

If the psyker was around a land raider, the land raider was blown up, and the occupants failed a pinning test then at the beginning of the next CSM turn the power could be used against the occupants.

[Cale]

Yeah, I don't think that counting on Terminators getting pinned in a Raider explosion comes anywhere near a reliable mechanism for getting off a GoC before getting charged, regardless of circumstances.

 

It's a good thought, though. It could certainly come up.

[JamesI]

I have to agree with Cale. GoC is not going to help often before combat occurs (there are circumstances but they are very situational).

 

GoC when in combat is great, if you can survive long enough to pull it off.

[Ashe Darke]

Don't forget they might just deep strike right in front of you :)

[Cale]

Yeah, again, though, they'd have to choose to Deepstrike right in front of you or get fairly unlucky with their Deepstrike scatter. That means it only works if they mess up (by choosing to come down within 6" of Ahriman) or if it's the result of an occurrence which is insufficiently likely for it to be anything close to a reliable approach.

 

 

GoC when in combat is great, if you can survive long enough to pull it off.

 

This is why GoC is a much better choice on Aspiring Champions or Daemon Princes than it is on Sorcerers (or Ahriman). Powerfists just represent too much of a threat to gibbable ICs, and they're just not sufficiently likely to survive long enough to pull it off against other marine armies.