Ashe Darke Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 I thought the wink would imply I was being silly and still with you on it being a non-tactic by pointing out 'never gonna happen' scenarios that might make it valid. I'm gonna need a new way of conveying my silly I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cale Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 Yeah, or I need to loosen up. One of the two. :) No worries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atheist Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 You cannot deep strike and do GoC . GoC is done at the start of the turn , while deep striking is done at the start of the movement phase ( Reserves rule ) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 I meant the terminators DS right in front of the Sorcerer, fulfilling the criteria of being silly :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atheist Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 Oh , my bad , sorry . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sandbot Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 Yeah, or I need to loosen up. One of the two. :P No worries. :lol: I'm with loosening up. You just tried tearing apart poor Hellios for responding to your post. GoC for me is useful for 2 things: 1. An anti-assault surprise inside of a T-son squad (AP 3 bolter or spawndom, you pick) 2. a rhino drive-by Even when you do use it for these two situations, you'll still encounter all of the problems outlined by Cale. Nonetheless, neither of these situations can really justify the usage of Ahriman. Although personally I would rather take a DP just because it gives me a few extra left over points for more rubrics or lesser daemons. Not to mention a DP can add a little more anti-vehicle to a list that has enough problems against vehicles already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cale Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 I'm with loosening up. You just tried tearing apart poor Hellios for responding to your post. I guess I was a little harsh with him. I pretty much agree with everything else you said, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 I'm with loosening up. You just tried tearing apart poor Hellios for responding to your post. I guess I was a little harsh with him. I pretty much agree with everything else you said, too. The problem is cale that all war is intellectual until it hits reality. I could train in Martial Arts for years and know how to defeat every possible attack and be able to preform what is required however I could still be beaten by someone who knows far less. I however can't tell you how they would beat me because it could happen in anyway. I could make examples but you could just say that could never happen however war isn't like that. It's how Math hammer alone can't win games for you although it can give you an advantage if you know what your doing. I'm a damn good fencer (classical not sport) and I've trained people who are international standard now. However not a single one of them fights entirely like me in fact I think I'm Unique in my style although I'm certainly not the best in the world or even my country by any means. However unlike most trainers who train progressively harder and more complex moves and forms. I only teach the basic moves (that many people already know when they come to me) which I consider to be the blocks that make up all other moves. I get them to try to perfect those individual building blocks and then get them to do exercises to improve those and then to spar to apply them. As they practise more they start doing more complicated moves or some stay basic but perfect it to a degree that they will beat people who at first glance seem to be more advanced. The reason I do this is because everyone has their way and the best way is to realise how to do thing by yourself by application rather than just being told what the best thing to do is in any situation. If you don't expand your mind you will never improve physically. So yes you are right that I am vague but whatever example I give you... you can rip it apart because it is theoretical however if that example was to occur in a real game there is nothing you could do. So rather than criticising me for being vague why don't you think how it is possible to do what I say, you might not agree that is is worth doing what is required to achieve that end but that is the path you chose... that isn't the same as the path not being there. I once thought that doing a press-up with one thumb was impossible but someone did it and I realised then it could be done... I worked out how eventually... some might not think it's worth it... that however is opinion. Oh WWI became the mess it was because people thought they could write something down and it would happen however if you have read or would like to read the vaguely intellectual work "On War" By Carl von Clausewitz you will see that things are very simple yet complicated at the same time. You can rip me apart all you like but that only shows you don't understand which is when we look at it not my fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cale Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 I "ripped you apart" because your post was vapid and lacked useful content, not be cause I didn't understand it, and that certainly is your fault. =P All the rest, about war and fencing, is pretty much irrelevant. 40k is similar to neither war nor fencing, and there are precious few analogies that can be made between them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 the only way for a termi unit to be in range of ahriman and not kill him in hth is . If ahriman is siting on an objective with a unit of 1ksons and the termis are non scoring and have to kill him , ahriman is in difficult terrain . termis move try to assault and fail . this is the only way how a unit of termis can be 6" away from ahriman before he moves and without him being dead or in 2 turn of hth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmic Archmage Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Or the aforementionned deep striking terminators. I know what your thinking, no one will knowingly place his terminators within 6 inches of a GoC model, but scatters happen. Just last week, a GK Grand Master scattered with his retinue within 6 inches of Ahriman. You can be certain that Ahriman spawned that GKGM and proceeded to wipe the floor with the rest of the termis in the subsequent assault. So yeah, keep in mind I am not defending GoC as a reliable tactic, just providing and example of where it shined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
empchildrenbob Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Khârn and huron are the only two worth their points abaddon is for big games only Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Chaos_Brute Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 How is this on 3 pgs? Khârn is the only one worth considering, and that's only if you want to run some gimpy Mono-Khorne build :P The others all suck. ALL of them. And GoC "tactics"? Really?? I agree with Cale (and like his style), btw. Hope he starts posting here more often :devil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sandbot Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 How is this on 3 pgs? Khârn is the only one worth considering, and that's only if you want to run some gimpy Mono-Khorne build :)The others all suck. ALL of them. And GoC "tactics"? Really?? I agree with Cale (and like his style), btw. Hope he starts posting here more often :) GoC has its shining moments (and its fun if your tzeentch). As a result there are tactics to make it useful if your really determined to use the power or just want to have fun. I mean, 24/7 lash gets boring after a while. I'm in agreement about all of our SC sucking just because there are better and more cost effective HQs at our disposal. By that I mean you might as well buy a DP. Nonetheless, it doesn't stop people from playing with them or for just having fun with them, so theres still stuff to talk about. ...I still would never use Ahriman, no matter how much I enjoy his background. Cale reminds me of Legatus in that they both make interesting arguments with people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 As a result there are tactics to make it useful if your really determined to use the power or just want to have fun. m8 how can you speak about tactics when to actually use it , you either need a bad opponent or someone who doesnt know how to play ? I'm in agreement about all of our SC sucking just because there are better and more cost effective HQs at our disposal. no man EC are mid tier options , spawn making does not work at all . never. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Not every game is a tournament game Jeske :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Chaos_Brute Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 But any discussion about tactics is about playing effectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Sandbot was on about using it for a laugh which doesn't have to bring effectiveness and reliable tactics to the table. Sometimes it's fun when things fail, take Long Bombs in BB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cale Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 You both definitely have points (and man, is it rare that I say that). By default, we have to presume that any discussion of tactics is about playing effectively: i.e. optimizing the probability that you win the game. But, it is certainly possible to discuss tactics which are primarily designed to be entertaining or funny or something else, as long as it's made pretty clear that that's what you're talking about--and I think Sandbot made it pretty clear that that is, indeed, what he was talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Well my point was the it some times feels like Jeske forgets that not everyone plays on a highly competitive level a lot of time. But you are right that this is a thread about effectiveness and well yeah Ahriman - GoC. Nah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sandbot Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 As mentioned earlier, I was mainly talking about it for fun games or otherwise (ex. a person just wants to find ways to best maximize GoC), not competition. In all honesty while I love GoC because of the many different ways it makes my opponent's faces contort into amusing hapes, I can never see myself using it in a tournament game (or a competitive game period). If I wanted something to bolster my Sons in CC its always going to be warptime since its more flexible, reliable, and consistent. Tactics can still be used if your in a fun game though. Its not like we make fun lists with the intent of losing (or at least, I don't, I just make them so I can have fun, relax and fool around, but still have a viable chance of winning. It could just be personal preference). no man EC are mid tier options , spawn making does not work at all . never. are we talking about the same subject? I'm agreeing with Iron chaos that our special characters suck due to better, cheaper alternatives. I don't believe I mentioned anything about Emperor's Children. :) spawn making can work though!...just never EVER rely on it... Well my point was the it some times feels like Jeske forgets that not everyone plays on a highly competitive level a lot of time. But you are right that this is a thread about effectiveness and well yeah Ahriman - GoC. Nah. Imo, thats not a bad thing. It just means that Jeske can bring a more competitive outlook to the many topics he posts in, which to me would bring out interesting discussions. I do agree that GoC doesn't make Ahriman a worthwhile special character. Maybe if they let him rattle off 3 of any spell he possesses we'd be able to discuss it more, but his current incarnation is overpriced and underperforming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atheist Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 If the spawn were able not to be "mindless" if a sorcerer was attached to them , wouldn't they be a more viable choice ? ( I'm too bored to check the rules right now , can a sorcerer join a squad of spawns at all ? ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 nope , because the problem aint the spawn . the problem is that it is impossible to make one unless your opponent acts stupid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sandbot Posted January 16, 2010 Share Posted January 16, 2010 If the spawn were able not to be "mindless" if a sorcerer was attached to them , wouldn't they be a more viable choice ? ( I'm too bored to check the rules right now , can a sorcerer join a squad of spawns at all ? ) Its not even that. Before we even get spawndom, you have to go through all the problems that come with GoC. Although imo, if your opponent charges a T-son squad that isn't really being stupid, so there are still moments it can be used without your opponent being braindead (albeit, very very few). Other times its just going to be dumb luck (like assaulting through difficult terrain and stopping within a few inches of the Sorceror). You can choose if you want the spawn out or not though. If you do, then you have to get by the intiative 1, no save, and horrid speed after the battle. All in all, both the power and the spawn could use tweaks to make themselves better and anywhere near a viable choice for competitive games. Although I have to say, when GoC does well its incredibly hilarious. wait, why are we still talking about GoC and spawn? Shouldn't we be getting back to special characters and which ones are useful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 13th Goat Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 40k is similar to neither war nor fencing, and there are precious few analogies that can be made between them. Oh, i feel a game coming on... Warhammer 40'000/Fencing/War similarities Warhammer In the future their is only War! Lucius the eternal is a master swordsmen They use swords! Death Korps look like WW1 germany. Every single one of those bloody Black Library books huge dualing scenes. Commisars look like German generals. Ciaphus Cain is a master fencer. Cain's Last stand see's him kill HITLER! No one is happy, kinda like in WWI! :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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