Legions switching sides

[Greyhunter77]

Not sure if this has been asked before, but couldn't find anything when i searched.

 

Barring the obvious Sons of Horus, which Legion switching sides in the Heresy would have had the biggest effect on the outcome?

 

Who could have won it for Horus and who could have saved the Emperor?

[Brother Tancred]

Personally I think the Dark Angels could have changed everything. If the Lion, after hearing about the heresy, had sent all his forces to terra to fortify the palace like the WS and BA the extra force and tactical mind of the Lion could have been saved the Emperor. Or if you just wanted traitors, for a laugh the Word Bearer because if they hadn't turned there wouldn't have been a heresy :)

[Steel Company]

As much as I like the Dark Angels, I think that the Lion was holding his forces back, to see whom won at Terra, it would be the most tactical choice, then side with the winner.

 

I still think that Ultra :cuss were the worst of the worse, staying out of the fight, then comming in after it, and imposing their will on the rest of the battered legions...

 

If the Ultra's had been part, they would've made a massive differance, an untouched legion so to speak, rather then battered ones.

[UltimateJake]

If the Alpha Legion supported the Emperor then Horus would've surely been swiftly defeated by very complex tactics and Imperial reinforcements able to arrive to Terra in time to save the Emperor.

[Capt. Lysander]

The Death Guard, for their hard stoicism.

[Legatus]

If any Loyalists had switched to the Traitors:

 

1. Ultramarines: Every additional Legion on the side of the Traitors would have made it more difficult for the loyalists, but the Ultramarines would have sealed the deal. And not just because they were the size of two Legions.

 

2. Imperial Fists: If they had managed to convince everyone that they were loyal long enough and would still have been inside the Imperial palace, that would have been disasterous. Though I have the suspicion that if they had been on the side of the traitors, they would not have been in the final position at the battle for Terra that they were.

 

 

If any traitors had remained loyal:

 

1. Iron Warriors: Their particular skills would have been a huge benefit on Istvaan V and on Terra alike. But how it went was that they had fortified the landing zones behind the three loyalist Legions on Istvaan V and they were heading the siege of the Imperial palace. They were more instrumental to the battles in the heresy than any of the other Legions, barring the Luna Wolves themselves.

 

2. World Eaters: For the shere Marine vs. Marine prowess. If you would send a Legion on it's own to fight a campaign according to their tactics and strategies, perhaps a different Legion would be more suited than the World Eaters. But if you can just give them an objective that you want anihilated, they will take it apart.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

The Ultramarines being baddies would have rocked it for Horus. Massive size. Excellent strategy AND tactics.

The goodies didn't get their benefit during the Heresy due to Horus's sneakiness. Horus would have definitely had them in the action.

 

But I think the most massive swing would be this; If Magnus and his Legion had not pushed the Emperor in their use of Sorcery (say they had not smashed his psychic defences when using Sorcery or used a conventional method) then the Emperor would not have thought Magnus's message was "of the Devil" (if you catch the meaning of what I am trying to say) and it could have been more palatable for him.

 

"What do you mean Magnus? Horus has betrayed me? That is ridiculous!" Magnus calling Horus traitor? Such a thing is unthinkable.... but what if he tells the truth.... ? Maybe I can call those Primarchs who are not so chummy with Horus to see me and I'll give them a psychic super-test, if they are loyal then I can position them between Horus and I. Then with that added protection I'll call Horus in and test him for myself. I'll also send for Magnus, if he is lying then he'll have to face the music. I'll send a message to him with my mad skills. Because he is doing the accusing I will send a Legion to Prospero. If he is the snake, he'll not want to come in, I'd best be prepared.

 

Then the goodies would have been prepared a lot sooner.

[Hyperion]

If any of the Legions defending Terra had been traitors that would have pretty much finished things.

 

Horus expected Jaghatai Khan to join him, which would have been catastrophic for the IF and BA. I'm really interested to know why Horus thought this, and why the Khan surprised him.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

If any of the Legions defending Terra had been traitors that would have pretty much finished things.

 

Horus expected Jaghatai Khan to join him, which would have been catastrophic for the IF and BA. I'm really interested to know why Horus thought this, and why the Khan surprised him.

 

well, Horus made a few mistakes in his appraisal of the Primarchs.

His judgement of the Khan is one of those.

 

and i can only assume the savageness of Khan's pre-imperial rise to power and the awesome brutality of his legion had Horus thinking the Khan might go for a certain Chaos power (this is all guesswork)

 

WLK

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Where is this Khan and Horus interaction? I am interested! :tu: :)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Where is this Khan and Horus interaction? I am interested! :tu: :)

 

what interaction?

 

All i know is that Horus thought the Khan woudl side with him. if they had any personal interactions up to this point, i must have missed them

 

WLK

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Okay, how do you know that Horus thought the Khan would side with him?

[c-wrex]

Okay, how do you know that Horus thought the Khan would side with him?

 

There's a quote somewhere in all of the myriad heresy era fluff from gw/bl that mentions this. I remember reading it. I couldn't tell you where it was from though.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Okay, how do you know that Horus thought the Khan would side with him?

 

well, I dont know. if you want my personal opinion, the Khan would have never sidded with Horus against the Emperor. The cultural unity that Jaghatai achieved on his homeworld is also seen in the Emperor's dream. the two beliefs were strongly connected.

 

now, as for proof that Horus thought the Khan would side with him, i can only off this quote:

Khan is out of our reach on Terra but i fear him not and believe he will ultimately side with us.

, said by Horus, page 196 of the Collected Visions.

 

WLK

[c-wrex]

now, as for proof that Horus thought the Khan would side with him, i can only off this quote:

Khan is out of our reach on Terra but i fear him not and believe he will ultimately side with us.

, said by Horus, page 196 of the Collected Visions.

 

WLK

 

That's where I knew it from! I have that book too. Should have known that one...

[The Emperor's Champion]

Ultramarines would've made the biggest difference if they were Chaos. Hell, with 2/3's of the Marines at the time they would've claimed automatic victory for whichever side they were on, had Horus not taken them out of the equation.

 

Had the Iron Warriors stayed loyal Horus would've been extra screwed. No siege master on his team, and two fortress masters against him.

[Capt. Lysander]

Ultramarines would've made the biggest difference if they were Chaos. Hell, with 2/3's of the Marines at the time they would've claimed automatic victory for whichever side they were on, had Horus not taken them out of the equation.

 

Had the Iron Warriors stayed loyal Horus would've been extra screwed. No siege master on his team, and two fortress masters against him.

 

Of course, the Emperor would have the trouble of resolving the emotional tension between Dorn and Perturabo.

 

Actually, the Sons of Horus remaining loyal may be the greatest thing: Horus succeeded in further corrupting several other legions by gifting them with weapons, ex: The Emperor's Children, and the Iron Warriors. Following that, it may have been the greatest difference if the Word Bearers themselves remained loyal, and managed to warn the Emperor about the Chaos Gods, ensuring humanity's survival. Had they not turned to chaos, they wouldn't have persuaded Horus, who in turn wouldn't have rallied other legions to his cause :P

 

/rant off

[The Emperor's Champion]

Fair enough. Word Bearers and then the Sons Of Horus would've been best because they'd have nullified the whole mess entirely, but assuming the Horus Heresy has to actually HAPPEN to have a different outcome, I still say the Iron Warriors.

Once the thing got rolling the Word Bearers and Sons Of Horus would've been already locked into Chaos mode since they started it, thus they're really not options.

[Santar]

I'd say Ultramarines or Imperial Fists for Horus. The Fists as it was mentioned above were pretty much the defenders of Terra and had the Ultramarines been turned then the Word Bearers could have been committed elsewhere.

Space Wolves could have been pretty disastrous as well given that they were created to be Legion killers according to recent information from Dan Abnett.

[Legatus]

Space Wolves could have been pretty disastrous as well given that they were created to be Legion killers according to recent information from Dan Abnett.

On the other hand, if the Space Wolves had been turned out to be traitors, then the Thousand Sons would probably still have been on the Emperor's side. :P

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Space Wolves could have been pretty disastrous as well given that they were created to be Legion killers according to recent information from Dan Abnett.

On the other hand, if the Space Wolves had been turned out to be traitors, then the Thousand Sons would probably still have been on the Emperor's side. :lol:

 

but they would have still been destroyed. Imagine if Horus (or whoever the head traitor would be) orders a demonic SW legion to Prospero?

 

WLK

[Marshal Wilhelm]

but they would have still been destroyed. Imagine if Horus (or whoever the head traitor would be) orders a demonic SW legion to Prospero?

WLK

 

SPOILER ~ DON'T READ IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THE HORUS HERESY SERIES.

I know of your great affection for the Thousand Sons, so this could open a can of worms.... :lol:

 

BUT

 

We know Magnus had been into Sorcery. We know he knew of Lorgar's plans for naughtiness, he saw it via sorcery. He even saw Horus during his out of body experience and tried to warn his of the doom he was walking into, via sorcery.

 

Then he contacts the Emperor and trips all the fuses, making Dad cross! :)

 

Then Magnus didn't see the Space Wolves coming....

 

So this has at least two possibilities, that I can see; 1st, Tzeentch was the one enabling Magnus to do all of this supernatural stuff. This doesn't mean Magnus was a weak Psyker/Sorcerer but at this particular stage he needed to be spoon-fed and the god of Caprice was there to 'help' Magnus. In true Devilish style, Tzeentch shows Magnus enough of the truth to stir Magnus into action. Then, to push Magnus into Tzeentch's arms, he takes away his 'help' and Magnus is blinded to the oncoming Space Wolves....

 

2nd was that Magnus did indeed have mad skeeyulz in supernatural stuff. Maybe Tzeentch gave him a nudge, a wink and a cough here and there to steer him on the right track, but maybe not ~ Tzeentch could have just been watching and anticipating. Magnus does all this amazing stuff off his own bat, so to speak. Then after delivering his fateful message to the Emperor via a supernatural brick & letter combo, Tzeentch then pulls up the screen around Prospero and Magnus can't see the Space Wolves through the fog....

 

So why am I suggesting these two things?

 

The SW stomped the TS ~ because the TS were caught unprepared. Tzeentch paved the way for Russ.

 

So if Magnus was not fogged by Tzeentch, then the TS would also be on a high war footing, just like the SW were.

 

Then if Magnus is trusted, his foresight would have seen the SW attack and he could have called another Legion in to hit the SW from the rear, squishing them a hammer and anvil....

 

*As an aside, I have a problem with the fluff. Sure a Legion can stomp non-Astartes defending a planet - that was the part of their purpose.

My equation for it: Astartes +2, non-Astartes 0 & defending a planet +1. So the Astartes win.

So then when Astartes invades an Astartes held planet; +2 versus +3. (and that is not giving the Astartes any credit for being able to get extra benefit from defending a planet than non-Astartes AND given that Astartes know how deadly they are, wouldn't they build their defences to be able to withstand themselves, not because they thought they would attack one another but because they know how high the bar has been raised...?)

Even without their Sorcery, the TS should not have been smoked by the SW.

 

In the Siege of Terra; Dorn + Sanguinius + Jaghatai + defending = 4 versus Horus + Angron + Fulgrim + Magnus + Perturabo = 5. (at the very best for the baddies) and then Fulgrim stops, Magnus goes for psychic breaching and Horus remains in space = 4 versus 2

And yet the Traitors roll the Loyalists in a matter of 3ish months (55 days plus a few more weeks had the SW, DA and UM not been on the way). That doesn't stack up, IMO.

 

Look at LoTR; it takes oodles of Uruks (better than men in cc) to overrun Helmsdeep and that was only because they had a technology that Man did not. In the Sack of Prospero and the Siege of Terra, there was no such technology gap....

[philpill]

The decider would have to be the Blood Angels - if Sanguinius wasn't around to weaken Horus at the final battle, the Emperor would never have beaten him.

[Santar]

Yeah but the problem is that it's more complicated than applying a simple equation. The Space Wolves attacked Prospero without warning and there are no figures to say how many casualties they took doing so nor the fighting strengths of each side.

The Imperial palace at the siege of Terra had been heavily fortified by Dorn long before the traitors set foot on the planet and so they were prepared, the Thousand Sons weren't.

 

When the traitors attacked earth they were accompanied by traitor guard regiments, daemons and renegade titan legions expecting a siege. With the Emperor and his forces having no where to run and cut off from Mars it was a matter of attrition. Horus was forced to act when news of the wolves and dark angels reached him and he knew that unless he acted quickly the loyalists would gain the upper hand.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@marshal wilhem: this might be my fanboyness coming out, but i believe the SW would have beaten the TS regardless of whether or not the TS knew of their arrival. it would have been a much, much costlier affair for the SW, but i believe they had the martial ability, sheer physical power and most importantly, crazy amounts of rage/anger at the TS for their betrayal to overcome the advantages the TS had from defending their home.

 

Also, the SW brought in Sisters of Silence and Adeptus Custodes to the fight. while the numbers of these two groups were probably small, the effects they both have on the battlefield are too important to miss.

The SoS have the ability to deny the TS their greatest strength, their reliance on sorcery, while the Adeptus Custodes bring both impressive martial power, and the authority of the Emperor (which would prevent another Loyalist legion from assaulting the Wolves. Its clear whose side they are working for)

 

and when it comes to tzeentch blinding the TS from the SW approach, as much as i hate saying "a wizard did it", this is totally his M.O., and he doesnt gamble to lose. I think he was "spoon-feeding" Magnus since before the Emperor found him, and then to completely possess his pawn, blinded him to the oncoming danger.

 

WLK