Legions switching sides

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Yeah but the problem is that it's more complicated than applying a simple equation. The Space Wolves attacked Prospero without warning and there are no figures to say how many casualties they took doing so nor the fighting strengths of each side.

The Imperial palace at the siege of Terra had been heavily fortified by Dorn long before the traitors set foot on the planet and so they were prepared, the Thousand Sons weren't.

 

When the traitors attacked earth they were accompanied by traitor guard regiments, daemons and renegade titan legions expecting a siege. With the Emperor and his forces having no where to run and cut off from Mars it was a matter of attrition. Horus was forced to act when news of the wolves and dark angels reached him and he knew that unless he acted quickly the loyalists would gain the upper hand.

 

You are right about the simple equation, nothing is that b&w. But many, many instances of sieges throughout history show that you have to be packing some serious heat to actually take a fortress. That is where the attritional work of starving them out comes into play. The SW did attack TS without warning but remember, Astartes don't have anything but a 2 level war footing, IMO. 1]We are just about to attack someone 2] we have just attacked someone and are re-equipping, repairing and de-stressing in preparation for 1].

That is true, we don't know how many of each side their was and what casualties they took.

Marines are always prepared and a Home World should have Planet Strike defences, imo.

 

On the SoT, the Loyalists also had Guard and Titans plus Planet Strike defences that were the best in the Imperium (I would have thought) AND then they got pimped out by Dorn (who was supposedly Perturabos equal in siegecraft).

imo, Dorn + Pimped out Terra MUST be > than Perturabo and yet it would have fallen within 3 months? That is a load of rot, tbh.

 

I know about the SW, DA and UM support forcing Horus's hand. What I am saying is, unless the Emperor chose to beem over to fight Horus, the Imperials should never have lost, even without the Cavalry coming. I am saying it is ridiculous that the 3 Imperials in a Castle were ever threatened by 5 Traitors. That is not realistic, even in a Science Fantasy setting.

 

@marshal wilhem: this might be my fanboyness coming out, but i believe the SW would have beaten the TS regardless of whether or not the TS knew of their arrival. it would have been a much, much costlier affair for the SW, but i believe they had the martial ability, sheer physical power and most importantly, crazy amounts of rage/anger at the TS for their betrayal to overcome the advantages the TS had from defending their home.

 

Also, the SW brought in Sisters of Silence and Adeptus Custodes to the fight. while the numbers of these two groups were probably small, the effects they both have on the battlefield are too important to miss.

The SoS have the ability to deny the TS their greatest strength, their reliance on sorcery, while the Adeptus Custodes bring both impressive martial power, and the authority of the Emperor (which would prevent another Loyalist legion from assaulting the Wolves. Its clear whose side they are working for)

 

and when it comes to tzeentch blinding the TS from the SW approach, as much as i hate saying "a wizard did it", this is totally his M.O., and he doesnt gamble to lose. I think he was "spoon-feeding" Magnus since before the Emperor found him, and then to completely possess his pawn, blinded him to the oncoming danger.

 

WLK

 

I can take happily take it that SW would have overpowered TS, I don't think that is fanboyism. One man is not equal to another and the same applies to Legions. I do think that even without Sorcery, the TS should have lost only narrowly to the SW, though, due to the benefit that being on your home planet and having it set up for defence, even if you are not waiting for the SW to come and attack you.

 

On the TS calling in aid, that was for the Scenario of the SW being baddies and TS being goodies, "then if Magnus is trusted, his foresight would have seen the SW attack and he could have called another Legion in to hit the SW from the rear, squishing them between hammer and anvil.... "

That was a response to you saying the Chaos boosted SW would have rocked the TS. I was saying the TS would be fully prepared and even if that would have meant they would loose to the stronger SW, another Legion would come in and squash the naughty SW against the Defences and the TS.

 

*I am looking forwards to the HH SW-TS duo. <_< Hopefully they will reveal Magnus and Tzeentch's relationship, when it kicked off, how powerful Magnus was, how evil/far gone Magnus was and when, etc.

[The Emperor's Champion]

The decider would have to be the Blood Angels - if Sanguinius wasn't around to weaken Horus at the final battle, the Emperor would never have beaten him.

That's not even REMOTELY true. The Emperor was fully capable of annihilating Horus by blinking at him (and indeed that's what he did in the end). The only reason Horus did so well against him is because The Emperor refused to fight him for 99% of the battle.

 

Battle of Prospero in D&D terms:

LVL 20 Fighter/Barbarians with allied anti-magic fields VS. LVL 20 Wizard/Psions = lots of lose for the Wizard/Psions

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

The only thing i have to really disagree with is the readiness of the TS in either situation. Space Marines are powerul, terrible opponents, but at the end they are just men. which is to say that certain things will appear in them just like any armed force in history.

As the SM codex points out, it itsnt impossible for a CHapter Fortress to be penetrated by steath (which marine chapter give attacked and pretty much crushed by huron blackheart again?). For some reason, Marine home worlds are thought to be impenetrable forts, but as the Orks/Red Corsairs/Nids proved, with enough force applied even a Marine would can fall/be horrendously harmed.

 

Lets imagine that if Magnus stayed loyal, warned the Emperor of the Heresy and was orderd to head to Terra as all loyal legions were told to do at this point in the Heresy. To mobilize his Legion woudl take time, and have them in the packing and storage part. Like the unlucky Tanith, they wwoudl be caught in a very bad situation. With Tzeentch blocking Magnus's foresight (which i believe he would have done either way...either cruel father or jilted lover). The TSs, eager to get to Terra, would discover to their horror the emerging SW fleet braying for their blood. I have do doubt the fleet of the TS would do some damage, but unless Magnus knows of the SWs intent, he wouldnt arm his fleet. (example: How Fulgrim slides his fleet amongst the fleet of Ferrus Manus). The Wolves, being not retarded, woudl draw as close as they can to strike both the fleet and Prospero. Remember, the idea of a legion turning is abhorrant to most Marines, who are brothers after all...a hole the canny Wolf would exploit. Once the opening shots are fired i have no doubt the TSs would give their all, but i dont believe they would defeat the Wolves. More importantly, with the TSs staying loyal, Magnus doesnt have Tzeentch to save him this time.

This also reasons that all of the TSs are on Prospero at this time, if Magnus stayed loyal (which means that his sorcery was most likely approved of) he wouldnt have had to recall his Legion. So while the majority of the traitor Wolves are attacking Prospero, not all of the TS are there to defend. Another strike against them.

 

*and i have been accused of fanboyism for the Wolves before, so i hope to be as open-minded on them as i can. i have even gone so far as to discuss the negatives of Russ's personality and actions on this subforum before, but that is often over-looked or forgotten.

** i am SO looking forward to these new books. If they stick to the Collected Visions storyline it is going to be epic. and the CV states that Magnus was entralled by the warp and its promises before he met the Emperor...which was probably Tzeentch getting ready for the long game.

 

WLK

 

The decider would have to be the Blood Angels - if Sanguinius wasn't around to weaken Horus at the final battle, the Emperor would never have beaten him.

That's not even REMOTELY true. The Emperor was fully capable of annihilating Horus by blinking at him (and indeed that's what he did in the end). The only reason Horus did so well against him is because The Emperor refused to fight him for 99% of the battle.

 

Battle of Prospero in D&D terms:

LVL 20 Fighter/Barbarians with allied anti-magic fields VS. LVL 20 Wizard/Psions = lots of lose for the Wizard/Psions

 

 

i never thought of it that way before...AWESOME.

 

WLK

[Simo429]

@marshal wilhem you have to remember the number of imperial army units and the legions of mars that the traitors had and also the fact that the traitors were able to use orbital barrage to help

 

also remember that the loyalists were fighting demons both inside and outside the webway in the palace

 

it would have been interesting to see the custodes go rogue but obviously this would never happen

[Simonius]

I'd have to side with the Ultramarines making the biggest difference.

 

1. they were the biggest Legion.

2. Horus wouldn't have to have sent them off elsewhere and could have used them

3. The Word Bearers wouldn't have been diverted to deal with them (and we think they were one of the bigger Legions too)

4. therefore the Word Bearers could have been used for other stuff too.

5. Horus would not then have been worried about the the impending arrival of space wolves, dark angels etc. at the Siege of Terra, as he would have had essentially two more full strength Legions to deal with the.

6. Because of 5 above, Horus would not have felt compelled to lower his shields and confront the Emperor.

 

I think you can all take it from there on in.

[philpill]

The decider would have to be the Blood Angels - if Sanguinius wasn't around to weaken Horus at the final battle, the Emperor would never have beaten him.

That's not even REMOTELY true. The Emperor was fully capable of annihilating Horus by blinking at him (and indeed that's what he did in the end). The only reason Horus did so well against him is because The Emperor refused to fight him for 99% of the battle.

 

I think we have a bit of a disagreement then - I'm sure I've read somewhere that the only reason Horus lost out to the Emperor was via a chink in his armour opened up by Sanguinius. If the Emperor really coulda destroyed Horus with a blink (literally a blink), I don't think he woulda needed a retinue to accompany him into horus' battle barge.

 

I know B&C doesn't hold Lexicanum in high regard, but here's a little quote:

 

 

Sanguinius was eventually struck down by Horus, the only damage Sanguinius doing was creating a small dent in Horus' armour. Some say, however, that it was through this chink in Horus's armour that the Emperor was able to deliver the fatal blow.

 

So, I guess a lot of it is open to interpretation, same as the discussion about the guardsman/custodes/terminator who sacrificed himself.

[The Emperor's Champion]

I own the blow by blow account of the final fight between Horus and The Emperor (it's in Horus Heresy:Collected Visions). Trust me, Sanguinius hurting his armor had diddly squat to do with anything. I don't even think it's mentioned.

[Ferrata]

Simonius has the thread winner. The Ultramarines being traitor would have turned the entire Heresy into a steam roll for the Chaos gods. If the Ultramarines had betrayed The Emperor, not only would Horus have the biggest legion on his said, he would have one of the greatest tacticians on his side. Even if you don't rate the Ultramarines, the fact both the Word Bearers and the Alpha Legion would then be free to aid Horus instead of penning in the Ultramarines would have turned the war easy.

[Marco Polio]

The decider would have to be the Blood Angels - if Sanguinius wasn't around to weaken Horus at the final battle, the Emperor would never have beaten him.

That's not even REMOTELY true. The Emperor was fully capable of annihilating Horus by blinking at him (and indeed that's what he did in the end). The only reason Horus did so well against him is because The Emperor refused to fight him for 99% of the battle.

 

I think we have a bit of a disagreement then - I'm sure I've read somewhere that the only reason Horus lost out to the Emperor was via a chink in his armour opened up by Sanguinius. If the Emperor really coulda destroyed Horus with a blink (literally a blink), I don't think he woulda needed a retinue to accompany him into horus' battle barge.

 

I know B&C doesn't hold Lexicanum in high regard, but here's a little quote:

 

 

Sanguinius was eventually struck down by Horus, the only damage Sanguinius doing was creating a small dent in Horus' armour. Some say, however, that it was through this chink in Horus's armour that the Emperor was able to deliver the fatal blow.

 

So, I guess a lot of it is open to interpretation, same as the discussion about the guardsman/custodes/terminator who sacrificed himself.

 

Here's an idea though. We know that Horus was the Emperor's favourite son. Imagine your favourite son has been very naughty. Corvorting with daemons and gods or whatever. Now would you honestly give 100% into slapping his hide. He's the favourite. Your first born so to speak. If the arch traitor was another primarch maybe the Emperor would have slapped him silly.

 

I would say that to switch two legions I would go Wolves and Thousand Sons. The Wolves smashed Prospero. So they can be traitors. The Thousand Sons might still have teleported away. Straight to the Emperor's Side. So you got two of the baddest pyskers side by side. Magnus & Emperor splatting traitors brains left, right and centre. Mwhahahaha.

[philpill]

I own the blow by blow account of the final fight between Horus and The Emperor (it's in Horus Heresy:Collected Visions). Trust me, Sanguinius hurting his armor had diddly squat to do with anything. I don't even think it's mentioned.

 

Heh, in that case, I find it amusing that Sanguinius died for nothing :P

[Tormented]

Sanguinius didn't die for nothing, he was a marytr. I agree that the Ultramarines would of made the biggest impact if they had changed sides. Their size would of enabled Horus to commit more men to the siege which would of made it quicker, 2 legions would of been free(Alpha and Word Bearers) to also help out, and Guilliman was one of the bets or the best tactician out of the Primarchs. Also the resources of Ultramar would of ensured a steady stream of recruits to bolster any losses they would get during the siege.

[LPetersson]

@marshal wilhem you have to remember the number of imperial army units and the legions of mars that the traitors had and also the fact that the traitors were able to use orbital barrage to help

 

also remember that the loyalists were fighting demons both inside and outside the webway in the palace

 

it would have been interesting to see the custodes go rogue but obviously this would never happen

 

Where is this mentioned?

In the official fluff I mean...

 

I have seen people mention it occasionally, but I have never come across any fluff about this myself...

[Zarmon]

Actually the turning Legion for the Heresy would have benn the Word Bearers, for without them there would have been no heresy.

 

That said I'll go with the Thousand Sons, the powers they could have brought to the Emperors defence would have made a huge difference.

[Mr. Sandbot]

@marshal wilhem you have to remember the number of imperial army units and the legions of mars that the traitors had and also the fact that the traitors were able to use orbital barrage to help

 

also remember that the loyalists were fighting demons both inside and outside the webway in the palace

 

it would have been interesting to see the custodes go rogue but obviously this would never happen

 

Where is this mentioned?

In the official fluff I mean...

 

I have seen people mention it occasionally, but I have never come across any fluff about this myself...

 

Ugh its part of that horrid sabretooth 40k card game and their god awful additions to the fluff.

 

As for the Sons vs Wolves, despite my own fanboyism for the Sons, the wolves would win. Its not technically even a fault to the Sons being weaker or the Wolves being stronger though. Its mainly that the Wolves are a legion who has been better fleshed out than the Sons. As a result, since players know and understand the Wolves more, they are by far the stronger since we aren't completely sure exactly what the hell the sons can do during this period of time. I mean, alot of the descriptions of the war on prospero are pretty ambigious when it comes to what the sons were doing to fight the wolves and how their non-sorcerous troops fought.

One example is how in the index astartes it states that they preferred to fight through deceit and guile. Thats great. How the hell did they achieve that in a fight? Would it have effected the Wolves? What things could they do with sorcery? etc.

IIRC they at least killed all the Custodes at the cost of a lot of Thousand Sons.

Anyhow, the wolves would definatly win just because anyone who's read the new wolves' dex and the King novels get to know the strengths and weaknesses found in their legion which would far outweigh any strengths or weaknesses found in the Sons due to the absolute lack of real definition in either. (we know how they fight and what they're capable of now though, just not how they were in the past).

 

Although from a more objective standpoint, the Sons were fighting in a situation they weren't fitted for as well, making the wolves the better Legion for the situation and the battles on the planet.

At this point in time, their squads were led by people who were strong psykers, not war vets. They preferred to fight indirectly, and were caught in a direct war against a legion who specializes in that kind of conflict. The sons weren't the best in CC, the Wolves were invading their home planet which means they were backed against a wall. Either they run and leave their city to be burned by the Wolves, or stand their ground and attempt to resist to ensure a possibility the knowledge they gained can survive which pretty much eventually leads to CC (something the wolves are also great at). The wolves outnumbered the Sons by alot. The Sons weren't prepared for the fight. The Wolves brought help in the form of Custodes and Sisters of Silence (anti-psykers against a legion of psykers) to ensure they won key points on Prospero. Finally, when you throw in the primarchs, Russ was physically stronger than Magnus.

By comparison the factors the sons possibly had on their side are mainly that they could perform spells (not sure what kind and to what extent this could have helped) and the Sons knew the geography of Prospero better.

Hopefully, the two new books coming up will shed more light on both the fight and how Sons worked pre-heresy.

I give props to the Sons for putting up a hell of a fight, but there was no way they could win it.

 

Oh and don't expect a legion to fight at its best when they're defending their home planet. The raid on the Marines' Malevolent should show that best since they were torn between defending their artifacts and their geneseed. As a result, the marines malevolent were split apart and then defeated.

 

Right on topic...

Ultras just because of their size. I'm taking tactics out just because I'm going off the basis that each of the legions given certain situations would excel more so than others, and that saying they're better just because of "tactics" makes the word a blanket term. On the traitors' side I would agree with the Iron Warriors just because of their specialty in siege warfare and their closeness with the mechanicus granting them better toys for their wars.

[IronWinds]

Helping Chaos: Ultras.. there are just so many.

 

Helping the Imperium: IWs. If they were loyal Istvann would have been a fair fight, 4 vs 5 instead of 3 vs 6(or was it 4/6 and 3/7), and all of the 4 would have been fresh against armies that just killed many of their own members... so in the end a fairly fair fight. And they wouldn't have made the drop sight a killing field for the other loyal legions, instead it would have been a fortress to protect them. Tallarn would still be beautiful and not a desert, and breaching the palace walls would have been harder without them... much harder since they would be defending them. There is also the smaller fact that many loyal planets were forced to turn traitor during the heresy because the IWs were garrisoning them and appointed themselves in charge after killing the planetary govenors.

 

Finally, when you throw in the primarchs, Russ was physically stronger than Magnus.

 

Physically stronger... vs one of the most powerful psykers in the galaxy?

"I'm stronga dan you!! Brawwww!" (My Russ impersenation :P .)

"I'm smell wet dog."

"Die!!!"

Magnus snaps fingers.... "Oh there it is."

"Bark Bark" Wags tail.

"Whos a good little doggy, want a treat?"

 

Obviously wouldn't happen.... he would turn him into a furry spawn that looked 'somewhat' like a dog... not a cute puppy.... kind of like http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/chaosbeast.htm with fur.

 

Hmm on that note, Ahirman can cast gift of chaos 3 times per turn, wonder how many times magnus can cast it.... got to roll a 6 sooner or later :) .

[Legatus]

What's with the Wolves and the Thousand Sons? they did fight, and the Wolves defeated the Thousand Sons, driving them into the arms of Chaos. After that, I don't remember the Thousand Sons being all that instrumental to Horus's efforts during the heresy, so it stands to reason that if the Wolves had been traitors and the Thousand Sons had remained loyal, it would not have made a big difference.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Oh and don't expect a legion to fight at its best when they're defending their home planet. The raid on the Marines' Malevolent should show that best since they were torn between defending their artifacts and their geneseed. As a result, the marines malevolent were split apart and then defeated.

 

Right on topic...

Ultras just because of their size. I'm taking tactics out just because I'm going off the basis that each of the legions given certain situations would excel more so than others, and that saying they're better just because of "tactics" makes the word a blanket term. On the traitors' side I would agree with the Iron Warriors just because of their specialty in siege warfare and their closeness with the mechanicus granting them better toys for their wars.

 

I think UM and IW are looming as the people's choice for most influential Legions to swap.

IW worked overtime on Horus's behalf.

 

*One event doesn't make a trend. The MM were split apart and then defeated. It doesn't mean that others would or even that the MM would if the battle had been fought on another day, they happened to make decisions on the fly that with hindsight were poor.

 

Helping Chaos: Ultras.. there are just so many.

Finally, when you throw in the primarchs, Russ was physically stronger than Magnus.

 

Physically stronger... vs one of the most powerful psykers in the galaxy?

 

Russ wasn't stronger than Magnus or if he was by a narrow margin. IA SW "His strength was lauded as rivalling Russ, but he preferred to expend his energies learning and pursuing ancient arcana than the art of battle".

 

What's with the Wolves and the Thousand Sons? they did fight, and the Wolves defeated the Thousand Sons, driving them into the arms of Chaos. After that, I don't remember the Thousand Sons being all that instrumental to Horus's efforts during the heresy, so it stands to reason that if the Wolves had been traitors and the Thousand Sons had remained loyal, it would not have made a big difference.

 

Not necessarily. Just because Horus used the TS a certain way doesn't mean that the Emperor would also get the same result from them. That is just talking from a battle sense.

 

If the Emperor had of heeded a message sent in a more gentle manner from Magnus, he would have positioned the Loyalists in better positions and a lot sooner. The Emperor could have then interviewed Primarchs with a steadily growing retinue of proved Loyalists. Then he could have called both Magnus and Horus to a meeting and screened both of them. Magnus would be seen as trustworthy and Horus as the snake. Had Horus refused to come to town, his guilt would be inmplied - nothing Horus was doing was so important that he could not return to the Emperor.

If Magnus's message hadn't been so powerful/misdirected, the Emperor wouldn't have been tied up playing the little Dutch boy with his finger in the dyke at the Palace. The Emperor smoked Horus, even after he had taken a beating because of denial. Imagine the Emperor in full stride!

 

With Magnus in the clear, his visions of Guilliman being sent off to the south-east would have meant Guilliman gets a message to come back ASAP.

Then Guilliman would have been able to come straight to Terra OR head to Istvaan 5 and in true Guilliman style, spoken to Corax and Vulkan and the three of them would have told Ferrus to stand down. They then would have attacked Istvaan 5 with one of the best tactical and strategic Primarchs at the helm. That could even mean they wouldn't have yet landed by the time the Traitor rearguard had come to sandwich them. OR the UM moves to attack the Word Bearers and not get caught unprepared in their home system.

 

If Russ was the Traitor (and Horus hadn't yet sent him to Prospero) the DA would be near the SW and sending another 2 Loyal Legions would have cooked Russ's goose.

If Russ had already been sent on his way to Prospero, Magnus would have called in 2 Loyal Legions to chase him. SW attack a prepared Prospero and even though they would probably beat the TS, the other 2 Legions come before that happens and again squash Russ.

 

Outside of the obvious two (SoH and WB) I believe that had Magnus managed to remain Loyal, he would have massively changed the outcome of the Heresy. Probably more than any other and not because of military might. He would have activated the Emperor (and that alone would have been massive) and then some of Horus's tricksiness would have been undone (such as the poor positioning of some and the baiting of others)

 

*On the table top, you want Vulkan He'stan because he buffs the whole army (including SoB ;) :lol: ) more than you want someone super killy like Khârn the Betrayer, because Khârn is localised and Vulkan is table wide. If you get the gist of what I am saying.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Oh and don't expect a legion to fight at its best when they're defending their home planet. The raid on the Marines' Malevolent should show that best since they were torn between defending their artifacts and their geneseed. As a result, the marines malevolent were split apart and then defeated.

 

*Off-topic* Wasn't that the Marines Errant?

 

What's with the Wolves and the Thousand Sons? they did fight, and the Wolves defeated the Thousand Sons, driving them into the arms of Chaos. After that, I don't remember the Thousand Sons being all that instrumental to Horus's efforts during the heresy, so it stands to reason that if the Wolves had been traitors and the Thousand Sons had remained loyal, it would not have made a big difference.

 

A contingent of Thousand Sons were the ones trying to breach the Inner Palace with their sorcerous powers in the fluff for the Siege of the Emperor's Palace (Perturabo couldn't get his siege engines through the outer walls). It didn't work (they were blocked by massed BA and IF Librarians), but you could argue that Horus would have lowered the shields on his flagship sooner if he had no way of breaching the Inner Palace before reinforcements arrived.

 

Alternatively if the Wolves had turned traitor you could argue that the DA would not have arrived at Terra at all, giving Horus much more time to break into the Palace and wound/demoralise the Emperor (as was his intention) before facing him.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Alternatively if the Wolves had turned traitor you could argue that the DA would not have arrived at Terra at all, giving Horus much more time to break into the Palace and wound/demoralise the Emperor (as was his intention) before facing him.

 

Yes that is possible. It would all depend on the timeline of Horus shuffling the SW around and when Magnus (successfully) contacts the Emperor.

I would suggest that the Lion would have made a much better fist of it that Magnus though. So let's say they are neutralise one another.

 

But outside of that, with the Emperor free and he and Magnus using pre-cog, the situation is a lot better for the Loyalists.

Horus enjoyed success because he operated in the dark. With that darkness gone, the whole balance of power shifts and the misdirection is righted, Horus's sneaky sneaky plans won't work.

 

Horus blindsided the Loyalists;

BA into attacking some Daemon-esque world.

UM into attacking far away from the action.

IH, S and RG into attacking him at Istavaan 5. After this battle, we don't here of them for the rest of the conflict.

WS and DA didn't get manipulated by Horus but had to deal with Traitor attacks (WS) or Chaos on their HW (DA)

SW were fooled into attacking Prospero.

Only the IF dodged his sneakiness but only because of the Emperor's actions. Then Dorn can't defend the Palace :devil: and Sigismund (I think, I haven't yet read Mechanicum) gets beaten by Dark Mechanicum. :P

 

So pretty much Horus has his way and thus managed to execute his plans. Bring light to the darkness and things are not in his favour anymore. ;)

[Simo429]

@marshal wilhem you have to remember the number of imperial army units and the legions of mars that the traitors had and also the fact that the traitors were able to use orbital barrage to help

 

also remember that the loyalists were fighting demons both inside and outside the webway in the palace

 

it would have been interesting to see the custodes go rogue but obviously this would never happen

 

Where is this mentioned?

In the official fluff I mean...

 

I have seen people mention it occasionally, but I have never come across any fluff about this myself...

its in the visions book

 

when magnus used a demonic spell to warn the Emperor he opened the human webway to the demons

if the heresy hadnt taken place the chaos gods may have been defeated because humanity would no longer need to rely on the warp at all

[brother carc]

I think the Sanguinus point made earlier is an important one.

 

The way I see it, the Horus heresy essentially boils down to one fight: The Emperor versus Horus.

 

As long as the numbers of loyal and traitor legions stayed roughly equal the emperor had home-field advantage over Horus. Horus initially had the element of surprise but his plan was largely based on taking out or distracting as many loyalist legions as possible so he had a clear shot at the Emperor himself. As such he was forced to throw all his resources at Terra in one do-or-die move.

 

Now apart from perhaps the Ultramarines (who might just have had enough the numbers to pull it off) no single legion would make ENOUGH of a difference to be able to steamroll the imperial palace in one fell swoop. So horus would have ended up in the same position: having to challenge the Emperor to a one-on-one to secure a swift victory.

 

Now in a straight fight, without being burdened by previous loyalties the Emperor wins this one every time. As it is, he was unwilling to except the monstrous deamon creature he was fighting was his favourite son. Until Horus murdered his brother and a poor schmuck Custodes, that is.

 

So if Sanguinus hadn't died, perhaps the emperor wouldnt have pulled out all the stops as was necessary and Horus would have killed him.

Emperor dies, Horus wins.

[Capt. Lysander]

I think the Sanguinus point made earlier is an important one.

 

The way I see it, the Horus heresy essentially boils down to one fight: The Emperor versus Horus.

 

As long as the numbers of loyal and traitor legions stayed roughly equal the emperor had home-field advantage over Horus. Horus initially had the element of surprise but his plan was largely based on taking out or distracting as many loyalist legions as possible so he had a clear shot at the Emperor himself. As such he was forced to throw all his resources at Terra in one do-or-die move.

 

Now apart from perhaps the Ultramarines (who might just have had enough the numbers to pull it off) no single legion would make ENOUGH of a difference to be able to steamroll the imperial palace in one fell swoop. So horus would have ended up in the same position: having to challenge the Emperor to a one-on-one to secure a swift victory.

 

Now in a straight fight, without being burdened by previous loyalties the Emperor wins this one every time. As it is, he was unwilling to except the monstrous deamon creature he was fighting was his favourite son. Until Horus murdered his brother and a poor schmuck Custodes, that is.

 

So if Sanguinus hadn't died, perhaps the emperor wouldnt have pulled out all the stops as was necessary and Horus would have killed him.

Emperor dies, Horus wins.

 

Nicely said :)

[The 13th Goat]

Okay, how do you know that Horus thought the Khan would side with him?

 

There's a quote somewhere in all of the myriad heresy era fluff from gw/bl that mentions this. I remember reading it. I couldn't tell you where it was from though.

 

Collected Visions: The Horus Heresy Artwork and Companion Guide.

 

Same with Mannus. Both were brutal warriors that preferred displays of strength. Horus believed both Khan and Mannus would also join, given his straight forward approach and their individual characters; Horus felt Emps abandoned them, and warlords like khan and mannus that unified through strength would also have felt begrudged that they were doing all the work for no respect, or so Horus thought.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

yea, Horus made several goofs in his attempts to gain allies...

 

the khan envisioned a unified, strong future for mankind. this is what the emperor represents. i dont see how could horus ever think the khan would side with him.

 

WLK

[The 13th Goat]

Khan rebelled against a corrupt system before, and honored strength. Its not too hard to see the parallels their. Plus, Horus thought he was unifying the galaxy, that was the goal.