New Chaos codex

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

I think our friend Sandbot makes some decent comments, as do many posts here. We do need to deal with the "factory" builds more on the front of making more variants for the crazy "enlightened" mechanicum (have a dislike for them labelling themselves 'dark' for the comic book bad guy reasons) to play with rather than limiting our choices of having 2 DPs. Plasma cannon, melta based land raiders may be a good idea. Give more choice to make that build seem self limiting and dull rather than actually saying to us with 0-1 limits "though shalt not". How chaosy is that? Let's face it, there must be a Chaos Lord in the warp who would surely try to allign as many Daemon Princes as possible in order to deal out immense pain on some poor unsuspecting troops. However, I also understand that fairness of game leads to the FOC to limit this to 2 where suitable.

 

Go nuts with the Thousand Sons. Surely an aspiring sorcerer who is charged with them could take all their bolters out of their hands and swap them for plasmas, meltas, something, anything to make them a continuously firing assault gun option but by nature of their automaton status of animated suits of power armour, I am opposed to them having close combat options.

 

I adore the idea of more daemon engine variants. They could keep with the basic chasis of the Defiler as they have with the Soul Grinder or they could play with a new Dread variant, something on tracks, some sort of "hover" based machinery. It's chaos, surely the only thing that should limit both game designers and ourselves as modellers/painters is our collective imaginations.

 

The special character ideal of actually having them affect the army as a whole is one that surely someone should be putting their hands up to in a design studio and saying "it's true, I was on cat nip the night before I finalised those parts of C:CSM and was so sleepy the next day I should have 66 IQ points for that one". That one is a decision of someone who licks an icy lamppost. I would like some changes to the SCs whereby someone like abaddon ignores cult troops going in as Elites as in 3.5 if your Lord didn't have the same mark as the troop but the rest of them did. Something to do with specialist retenues, additional force options (specialist daemon engines commissioned by said SCs etc) may be a way forward. Also, with most of these characters, if not all (Huron aside) having been around since the Heresy, yes EW is a must, as is possibly SCs for the 4 non-cult/BL chapters may be wise to get an SC option, even if it is just a Leiutenant, which I would love to bring back, or even just an SC aspiring champion. These are just a few fluff based options for aspiring champs or such for those 4...

 

A "sane" Veneriable dread style character (ala what's-his-name for the space wolves) for the IW with just long range weapons, no DCCW, or maybe a 4 armed dread...

 

A raptor Aspiring champ for NL who allows the Raptors to flank on the side of board of their choosing on a reserve roll with a +1 modifier

 

A Chosen AL asp champ who allows his unit to shoot in the shooting turn of the opponent on 1 turn per game.

 

A demi-daemon prince for WBs. Not a monsterous creature but somewhere between full DP size and regular marine. Something akin in size to an Ork Warboss or slightly bigger who fills a leutenant spot.

 

Fast attack may be somewhere to go too. Having not played any of them under the new rules yet, I can't say they are atrocious but I can see that they really aren't overly viable either. Infiltrate may be a great addition to an option like Raptors. I can't put into words why but I just feel that that would be more fluffy for them. Something land speeder-esque may also help. I'm not saying "a land speeder", I'm saying something stupid, crazy, unreliable but fun and wild would work, which brings me on to my final point.

 

I think the one thing you have to put into perspective is the ideal of our unit options being "flawless". In name alone, we are Chaos. This has to be reflected. In that respect, I think the only things left to hae upside with a downside are the likes of Fabius, Khârn, possessed and sadly the dreadnaught. I don't like the idea of Abaddon not being in total control of his daemon weapon when all cannon for 10+ years indicates he IS in total mastery of Drach'neyen and as such should be ok from it attacking it. As for other daemon weapons, I feel it does still need a downside to the +D6 attacks but maybe be able to pay 15 pts for some sort of skill that allows a reroll.

 

And although I forgot it, yes, especially Thousand Sons and Tzeench sorcerers do need some sort of base "nullify" for psychic tests, and maybe some sort of psychic hood based wargear for other sorcerers and/or lords/DPs. Not forgetting more non-shooting powers that are just "thoughts of bad will" upon your opponent rather than shooting or such.

[IronWinds]

A well written well thought out codex. That is my first request. If we get another like this I demand the writer's resignation. GW is a corporation providing a product. If that product is crappy and the new product is also crappy then clearly you need to hire new talent.

 

I put * next to things I think might start up conversations. Rest is pretty obvious.

 

Legion rules again, that is a must. Don't have to be crazy, but anything would be a step up from what we have.

IWs- bring back having an artillery peice, or a preliminary bombardment, or tank hunters, any of the above will do. +1HS might have been much.

AL- infiltrate.... on something besides chosen.

NLs- All enemies at -1 Ld when in hth with them.

WBs- +1 to all summoning rolls. Dark Apostle makes nearby CSMs fearless.

Cult armies are pretty obvious.

 

*Lords provide a bonus besides being a combat monster. Sorcerers have powers, princes are HtH monsters... literaly. What is a Lord? The cheap option? No a Lord should have some effect on his army.

 

Marks.... loose icons, loose cult entries, just have marks again. Mark should do the same thing for every squad you can put it on.

 

*Dreadnoughts have crazy as a free option. Sane dreads operate normally. Crazed dreads can get double fire and double attacks in cc when they are going crazy but have the risk of hurting their own guys. The current dread rules make NO sense. This codex is suppose to be chaos renegades... why would 'new' traitors have crazy dreads?

 

Demonic speed. It was a fine upgrade in the past.

 

*New Demon weapon rules. Here is my take on this. Perils of the warp is the risk a demon invaded your brain.... why not have the exact same rules for demon weapons. Take a psychic test. If you fail the demon is not helping you and the weapon counts as a standard PW(maybe go the extra yard and say its just a ccw). If you roll a 2 or 12 you suffer perils of the warp.

 

*Bring back Lts. Have demonic gift options for HQs and maybe champions. Doesn't need to be pages of options. Just a few. Have all HQs come with 5+inv, that was a decent idea. Demonic options: Wings, Speed, Mutation, Strength, Toughness upgrade, Essense(+1W). And leave it at that. Those were the only ones that got used a lot anyways.

 

Dreadclaws would be nice. Honestly chaos would make for a better drop pod army than marines. Chaos marines REALLY excell at close-mid range combat so landing on your enemies is the best way to do it.

 

0-1 limits on Princes and Lords. This is CHAOS! Two lord or two princes leading the same army? They would be fighting to see who is really in charge. It makes no sense. Chaos armies should have 1 defined HQ, and anyone else is that HQs sidekick.

 

Bring back Eternal enemies. Next person who has Kharne leading noise marines, Lucius leading bezerkers, or a Lash Prince leading an army of zerkers and plague marines is getting a slap to the face.

 

*Mortal servants. Don't have to be the specially trained traitor guard. Can be just rambling mutants and cultists. Those would do. Chaos is not JUST CSMs. Most of the servants of chaos are poorly trained idiots who only hope to go gain the gifts CSMs have. Where are they?

 

Thousand sons auto-pass psychic tests again.

[Ashe Darke]

I like some the things you're saying Iron Winds, some good solutions, except for the 0-1 for the Prince/Lords. Yeah it might be more fluffy and for some people that is important. For others they couldn't give a damn about that and prefer the tactics of being able to have more than one of each or the feel of it in their army. So while you're may be making it ideal for yourself you're making it worse for someone else. So why should your way win out? Just as there are many people who pine for the old codex there are people who are gonna pine for this one if it reverts back to something similar to the old one so surely you can understand how they feel. Not that I'm saying the 3.5 pro people should be ignored but if you don't want you to have 2 of the same HQs then don't take 2. Why limit the people who don't care about fluff?

 

Maybe if you do decide to have a Lieutenant (0-1) then they can have more options and be more powerful than if you do two Lords/Princes? At least that way there's the options for everyone.

[the jeske]

Demonic options: Wings, Speed, Mutation, Strength, Toughness upgrade, Essense(+1W). And leave it at that. Those were the only ones that got used a lot anyways.

limit those to one per model [lt] two per lord no same combinations [random chaos means nothing looks the same] . imagine a special character[bL super possessed] that rolls on 2 each turn. DP dont get mutations [auto wings] .

 

if you don't want you to have 2 of the same HQs then don't take 2

yes because runing 2 warp time DP or 2 lash prince makes just as much sense as runing 1 sorc and one lord.... no wait.... the othe two dont work.

[Ashe Darke]

Ok, if you want your Lieutenant then only take one HQ choice. Better?

[Cale]

Ashe's really right. A restriction on DPs can't possibly make the codex better in any way. There's no good reason to do it.

[the jeske]

Why limit the people who don't care about fluff

<_< by the way this is some sort of a joke right . because what other reason then fluff to play chaos ? it aint the best and most flexible dex , it is easier to win with the 5th ed dexs . so anyone who wants a better power army can use different dexs. it is boring , with few options to pick , so playing it for enjoyment of different builds kinds of a goes away too. if someone plays chaos for power builds , then he may as well play sw[and probablly BA] , same game play more builds.

 

one powerful option for each slot is not the way to go . this means the same option is all that is played , this ends up with all lists looking the same . what in the end means game becomes more boring. The 3.5 dex was good because not all builds used the same stature lord , some used speed lords with dark blades , some used double Lt deathstar infiltrators , other used Nurgle sceeth lords etc . I would want that there someone who takes a lord/sorc/special wouldnt gimp his lists. making a DP more generic just hth and the lord FoC easier to modify would cause that[just like a sorc would be viable if he had some sort of psychic hood] . I tend to believe that this would led to more varity[like it did in 3.5] , more HQ combinations etc.

[Cale]

Encouraging variety doesn't require that you restrict Daemon Princes. Simply making the other options worthwhile or different or substantially less expensive would accomplish the same goal. The problem with Lords and Sorcerers now is that they don't really do anything that Daemon Princes don't do. They kill stuff in combat and cast psychic powers. DPs do both of those things, and they do both as well or better, and for a competitive cost, in addition to being tougher. The problem is not that you can take two of them, it's that they're not balanced well against the other options.

 

If they lord were a little weaker, but could be fielded with a power weapon for less than a hundred points, he might be worth playing in lists that need to scrimp on points. If DPs were a little tougher, but ranged between two and three hundred points, you might forgo a second or take a cheaper character in its place because you can't afford to have a third of your army tied up in HQs, no matter how monstrous. If the Lord allowed you to modify your FO chart, or provided some army-wide benefits--if the Sorcerer came with a Psychic Hood--you might consider taking them over the DP for their unique abilities.

 

Leaving DPs clearly better than Lords and Sorcerers, but restricting them to 0-1 isn't a fix: it's a half-assed gesture. Further, if DPs are brought in line with Lords and Sorcerers (or vice versa) or they are differentiated in some substantial way with each bringing useful but distinct abilities to your army, then DPs wouldn't need to be restricted.

 

Restricting them would serve no purpose at all if the codex were well enough designed to make lords and sorcerers (and lieutenants, if they were included) viable choices.

[IronWinds]

Maybe if you do decide to have a Lieutenant (0-1) then they can have more options and be more powerful than if you do two Lords/Princes? At least that way there's the options for everyone.

 

Why would Lts be 0-1. They are lesser HQs under a lord. There would be no reason to have a 0-1 limit.

 

 

On the fluff standpoint. The rules are built around the armies fluff. If we ignore fluff then I would really want is to have Tau crisis suits, demon princes as troop choices, obliterators as elites and/or heavy support, some Valkyries and Eldar skimmers, railguns, and an 'I win' button. GWs job is to build rules that are built around the fluff and are competitive. 2 princes does not make sense in fluff, and 'not' having 2 princes doens't make your army not competitive. You can have a VERY competitive army with just 1 DP. If the 4th ed dex had a 0-1 on demon princes to begin with.... would you have even noticed, would you have complained? No, because it was an accepted thing in 3.5 and made sense. People only complain now about things that are fluffy because the 4th ed dex for some reason allows 2 DPs and the mixing of ancient enemies.

 

DP dont get mutations [auto wings] .

 

Some of us want speed back. It had its uses too. I would be for an either or, but GW isn't going to do that because non of the models they have made have either.

 

one powerful option for each slot is not the way to go . this means the same option is all that is played , this ends up with all lists looking the same . what in the end means game becomes more boring. The 3.5 dex was good because not all builds used the same stature lord , some used speed lords with dark blades , some used double Lt deathstar infiltrators , other used Nurgle sceeth lords etc . I would want that there someone who takes a lord/sorc/special wouldnt gimp his lists. making a DP more generic just hth and the lord FoC easier to modify would cause that[just like a sorc would be viable if he had some sort of psychic hood] . I tend to believe that this would led to more varity[like it did in 3.5] , more HQ combinations etc.

 

Great example. I for one had a sorcerer w/ wind of chaos, one of those 200+pt demon lords in termy armor with spiky mastercrafted lightning claws, and a dreadaxe/speed demon prince. I also had a really cheap Lt w/ a Kai gun and a servo arm.

 

 

Lord bonus options. No... no 'characters' that make your army a legion army similar to what SMs have. That is crap... But maybe options that do define your army as one of the legions. These are just ideas and suggestions off the top of my head, don't shoot me.

Mo[]= Advantages the mark normally applies. All CSMs with similar mark become troops. Units in sacred numbers get free champion. You can not take units with ancient enemy opposing mark.

Servo arm= Benefits of a servo arm. Any squad within 12" get tank hunters. 1 squad of havoks can become troops. No marks or demons.

Dark Crozius thing: PW w/ 4+inv. Any squad within 12" becomes fearless. Counts as a personal icon and for summoning(not teleporting) it has a 12" range instead of 6". +1 to summoning rolls. No marks.

The haunters helm(ok no...): All enemy units within 12" are at -1 Ld. Lord and the squad he is with gain fleet of foot. One squad of raptors count as troops. No marks. 0-1 limit on demons.

'No clue': Lord and his squad gain the infiltrate special rule. All CSMs can buy the infiltrate special rule for xpts. Hopefully the new CSM codex will include cultists so don't need anything about them. No marks. Only cultists can be used as icons for summoning.

Mark of Chaos Glory: All units within 12" of the Lord are fearless.

 

Thoughts, ideas?

[Ashe Darke]

huh.gif by the way this is some sort of a joke right . because what other reason then fluff to play chaos ? it aint the best and most flexible dex , it is easier to win with the 5th ed dexs . so anyone who wants a better power army can use different dexs. it is boring , with few options to pick , so playing it for enjoyment of different builds kinds of a goes away too. if someone plays chaos for power builds , then he may as well play sw[and probablly BA] , same game play more builds.

 

one powerful option for each slot is not the way to go . this means the same option is all that is played , this ends up with all lists looking the same . what in the end means game becomes more boring. The 3.5 dex was good because not all builds used the same stature lord , some used speed lords with dark blades , some used double Lt deathstar infiltrators , other used Nurgle sceeth lords etc . I would want that there someone who takes a lord/sorc/special wouldnt gimp his lists. making a DP more generic just hth and the lord FoC easier to modify would cause that[just like a sorc would be viable if he had some sort of psychic hood] . I tend to believe that this would led to more varity[like it did in 3.5] , more HQ combinations etc.

 

Well I like a bit of fluff but I'm not extreme in my love of it. Some people wanna go really in depth but that's not me. Also from what I've read you're a competitive gamer. Well again that's not me. I don't play tournaments, I play local games. I'm not gonna go 'well they're not the most competitive army so I won't pick them'. I like Chaos but I don't wanna make up all this back ground crap for my army. I just want something that I like the look of and that I enjoy playing with. And I'm not the only one. So because I'm not doing tournaments and I don't want a really fluffy army I'm not allowed to play chaos?

 

Since the 2nd Ed I've been a fan of Nurgle. Does my Death Guard army adhere to all the fluff? Mostly, there's some bits I've let slide because I'd rather have tanks than foot slog. I have 2 Princes which apparently isn't allowed, but like with the tanks I'll do things that will help my army within reason if it bends a bit of fluff because that's more important to me. The main bit in the codex I look at is the stats. Sure other people love the rest of it, that's why it's in there but there are other things I care more about and that doesn't make my point any less valid. I don't see why people are trying to impose this love of fluff on people who don't care. No one is forcing me to take Havoks, Raptors or heaven forbid Thousand Sons. Sure it doesn't make any sense for other people to do unfluffy combinations but it's none of my business if people wanna do that so why should I tell them off if the fluff isn't their hobby? Plus saying 'but the fluff says this' isn't really an amazingly valid point in a universe where the fluff changes all the time and is even considered subjective by the people who wrote it.

 

You say about all the armies looking the same? Well that's great but I don't give a damn if someone's army looks like mine. Nor do I care if mine looks like someone else's, I don't pay attention to what other people doing and if they're doing something I don't agree with ahh well, it's not like it's my army. Sure it might be annoying from a tournament POV, but again that's not everyone. Besides my argument wasn't 'I don't want more heavy/elite/fast attack choices, flexibility is bad' it was about having 2 Princes. And having a maximum of one sounds like less flexibility. Hmmm.

[Ashe Darke]

On the fluff standpoint. The rules are built around the armies fluff. If we ignore fluff then I would really want is to have Tau crisis suits, demon princes as troop choices, obliterators as elites and/or heavy support, some Valkyries and Eldar skimmers, railguns, and an 'I win' button. GWs job is to build rules that are built around the fluff and are competitive. 2 princes does not make sense in fluff, and 'not' having 2 princes doens't make your army not competitive. You can have a VERY competitive army with just 1 DP. If the 4th ed dex had a 0-1 on demon princes to begin with.... would you have even noticed, would you have complained? No, because it was an accepted thing in 3.5 and made sense. People only complain now about things that are fluffy because the 4th ed dex for some reason allows 2 DPs and the mixing of ancient enemies.

I'm not saying just go crazy and do what you want. But is 2 Princes really that far fetched? I mean would the ground open up and swallow both the armies so that's why you can't have two on the same battle field? Princes as troops is far fetched and pushing my example of 2 Princes to an extreme that it was clear I was not heading to. Don't try and discredit it by doing that.

 

'Why don't we bend it?'

'What's that? You wanna chop it up into pieces'

 

Yeah, not the same. So don't make you're own extreme examples based on some minor thing I said and then call them stupid. Your examples, not mine. While fluff should influence the codex it should by no means harshly govern it to a degree that things might be fluffy but they're unplayable or un-fun for the individual. It is a game and hobby after all. And I do agree that there's a lot of stuff that should be in there from the last one. But I think properly giving people options would work better. Working towards a book that will make both groups of people happy seems like a far better option than pandering to the group who complains the most as you just end up in the same situation except the roles have reversed.

 

I want to have 2 Princes, it opens up certain tactical options to me and I like the feel of my army with 2. Just like I'm sure IW players like having Basilisks and look what happened when they took them away. The fluff is not set in concrete. Like the Death Guard, it says they have very limited numbers of tanks. That doesn't mean you can't spam tanks as your army could be consisting of elements of a company that has more tanks than the others and in this particular battle they're using some of the tanks they have left. Unless it said 2 Princes would never get within 10 miles of each other without all hell breaking loose and the world exploding then I might re-think it but even then you could say the exception that proves the rule (whatever the hell that means). Besides haven't GW said that everything with their logo on it is considered fluff so by that ruling 2 Princes is in the fluff seen as it's in the book. The fluff does change over time, it's by far the most unstable universe for accuracy that I know of. Even the Lost universe is more stable than this.

 

And so what if someone else is doing something you don't agree with? Why interfere? Like they could give a damn what anyone else thinks about what they're doing as long as they're happy with it. Sure if they wanna do fluff and they're doing it wrong then point them in the right direction but if they don't give a damn about it don't start telling them they're doing it wrong as I'm sure they don't want to know. Not everyone holds the same values as everyone else.

[Mr. Sandbot]

I think you two need to calm down a bit. We're getting a little close to having this degenerate into a flame war.

 

imo, it would be far more appealing to players if they buffed the Sorceror and the Lord so they are more viable options than limit the Daemon Princes. What we want is to get lower the usage of double prince builds right? not completely discard the possibility. I mean, eliminating a player's freedom from deciding to do such a build doesn't feel like the right decision at all. Plus, adding new things to the Lord and Sorceror would add new levels of depth and style to our gameplay, so it would be the more preferable.

[Cale]

I think you two need to calm down a bit. We're getting a little close to having this degenerate into a flame war.

 

Who? It doesn't seem very flame-war-like to me...

 

imo, it would be far more appealing to players if they buffed the Sorceror and the Lord so they are more viable options than limit the Daemon Princes. What we want is to get lower the usage of double prince builds right? not completely discard the possibility. I mean, eliminating a player's freedom from deciding to do such a build doesn't feel like the right decision at all. Plus, adding new things to the Lord and Sorceror would add new levels of depth and style to our gameplay, so it would be the more preferable.

 

In other news, quoted for truth.

[Ashe Darke]

I am calm, any aggression that can be read in those words are due to confusion of the medium. I do respect the words of Jeske and IronWinds, in fact I very much liked a lot of his ideas. I just don't like the idea of limiting things like that, it doesn't bode well with me.

 

On the matter of HQ choices I think you pretty much have it there Sandbot.

[Atheist]

If you don't mind I'll disagree about the two princes .

 

I would like to see this option discontinued .

 

Doesn't fit in with my vision on things "Chaotic" .

[Ashe Darke]

Well that's precisely it, your vision. So because you don't think that is the case everyone must adhere to that? What if someone decided on something similar that you didn't like and didn't fit in with your vision of it? Would you like it if that was imposed on you?

 

I can see why people would only want one, but why not just take one instead of being needed to be told that's the limit? Why force everyone who doesn't want to just take one Prince to do so just because some people need the book to say so before they will be happy?

 

And no I don't mind. It's your opinion, just like mine is just an opinion. You don't have to agree or listen. Neither of us are right or wrong but one of the opinions leaves thing open for people who have different visions of their own, or for those who don't have visions at all.

[IronWinds]

No offense, but 'we shouldn't limit people's options' is actually what the designers of the 4th ed codex said when they got rid of ancient enemies, allowed everyone 9 oblits, allowed 2 princes, got rid of the 'restrictive' legion rules, the 'restrictive' legion only armories, etc. And anyone and everyone who followed fluff cried blood at the sight of the 4th ed chaos codex and many of our most veteran players quit playing. I was not critizing anyone here, the designers did refer to those things as restrictive. Apparantly a codex that allowed for a super hth army(WEs), a super shooty army(IWs) and anything in between was restrictive :wallbash: . So now we have thousands of copies of the same army painted in different colors.

 

I don't think its Athiest's vision. I think it is the vision of many chaos players, the ones that focus on fluff in particular.

 

I'm not saying anyone is wronge, but there needs to be a balance between keeping an army fluffy and not too restrictive. I didn't find 3.5 to be too restrictive, but I did find it fluffy. This codex I find to restrictive and unfluffy. Its less restrictive in that it allows 2 princes, the mixing of ancient enemies, 9 oblits, etc. but I find it more restrictive in that there is almost nothing else. There are not enough good options, no wargear section, no demonic speed, no mutation, ect. Personally I find this codex to be a disgrace in both regards. We need something that adheres more to the fluff... and in that I mean also having mortal servants, and legions, but has some restriction as well... for instance ancient enemies.

 

I actually wouldn't mind 2 princes 'that' much. If I had to choose the lesser of evils I would bring Ancient Enemies back first. 2 princes is exaplainable... though very hard. With a couple changes I would have a very fluffy reason to have 2 princes if I desired. One of my princes is not actually a prince, but my second in command who has undertaken many demonic bionic changes(basically a new type of dreadnought) and has become in essence as powerfaul as a prince. My actual demon prince... his boss... is a 'counts as' Abbadon, but I could easily field him as another prince and have 2 princes, though in fluff only 1. Now to play devil's advocate against myself... I would never have both of them in a game under 2500pts.

 

Now Lucius leading bezerkers, or Kharne leading Noise Marines into combat is not fluffy no matter how you cut it, and does need some restriction.

[Ashe Darke]

I think we're seeing more eye-to-eye now which is good. Yeah they did say that but then they were just lazy. Instead of filling in the blanks with cool rules, units and wargear they just concentrated on allowing diversity in army aesthetics. The codex would be very thick if it included all this stuff but frankly I think everyone would pay the extra money.

 

I do know a lot of players care about fluff, especially Chaos players, but to limit some things that don't need to be limited just to please one party seems wrong. Things that probably should be limited are a different matter.

 

Ancient enemies being able to play together is silly (CSM do know how to hold a grudge after all) and I think making it as loose as it is and having 'counts as' filling the gaps is lazy and a bit too much freedom. They should replace that freedom with actual units with rules. Slaaneshi Fanatics (Berserkers) is pushing it a bit in my opinion. But it's not my place to complain if someone does do that. I can see why people do get funny about it but that person probably isn't thinking fluff and might not care about it as much as you, they might just want to take the units they like the look of. I think the fluff people need to remember that not everyone thinks about armies with fluff in mind. I guess that fluff is very important to them and seeing stuff like that is an insult to the fluff that they love. Maybe a punishment, an animosity rule or something would discourage it? Personally I don't care if they put it back in as I don't mix and anyone else's army isn't mine. But I would like to see more options even if I don't take them because I know this book would be for all Chaos players.

 

So, what would I like to see? More options!

 

EDIT: Mortal servants :tu:

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Double prince builds should never be a possibility. This is a game based on fluff. The only times in the fluff where you could have multiple DPs would be in operations large enough that you would be using Apoc rules anyway.

 

Why do you want double princes at all? If your reason is fluff based, then you must bow to and abide by the larger fluff that it won't happen. If your reason is gameplay based you have even less right. I'm sure we'd all like tons of uberpwnawesome units and weapons.

 

Double princes works out in the current codex from a gameplay perspective. But this is only because the unit called "daemon prince" in the codex is nothing like what daemon princes should actually be. A new codex should bring back proper DPs that actually reflect how they are in the fluff, and should also bring back the restrictions from the fluff.

 

Limiting lords and DPs to 1 per army also helps preserve the differences between loyalist and chaos marine armies.

[Ashe Darke]

Exactly, based on fluff. Based on doesn't mean it has to stick to the letter. I mean if we're getting into fluff vs gameplay then are numerous inconsistencies that can be brought up. And then there's the inconsistencies within the fluff itself and fact that fluff is subjective. Sticking too strictly will limit people, not everyone cares about fluff. You seem to be under the impression that fluff is the most important thing and comes first, then everything is worked out from there. Personally I don't think so as this is a HOBBY and GW understand that. Fluff may be the world to you and may be blind enough to not realise that it's not the case with everyone, but to cater purely to one group is something they won't do unless that way lies lot's of money. They are a business after all. And it's their IP. If they feel it necessary to change the fluff to appease more people or to get more people to buy their products I expect they will. Just because the old fluff said something it doesn't mean the new stuff will agree. While the old fluff is valid people need to understand that the other newer fluff is as well, and that if that's the direction they're going to take then you're either going to have to accept the newer fluff as well or get disgruntled.

 

But I can see your point that they used to be harder and to have two would be sick. And maybe having just one that was far greater than the current ones might be enough, I've never used a Prince under the old rules so I don't know. And until I see what they would do with the new rules I'll be apprehensive about the idea. Who knows though, it could be amazing. Again maybe they're trying to shy away from UBER characters.

 

But the fact is that dual Princes is an option now and there are people who are happy with this and to take this away because some people cry 'fluff' will guarantee to upset some people. Some people will be happy if the substitute is a good replacement. But right now those people are going to want to stick with what is working for them for fear that change will upset the balance for them. So can you blame them for not being sure about the idea? Dual, weaker, Princes technically are fluff now as they're in a book.

 

If they can do it while keep both parties happy then why not? I don't know if it can happen though, it might be a case of a codex that upsets people the least.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I'm not responding to your post in full because i'm in the middle of something and don't have time right now. But i did want to respond to a couple points:

 

But fact is that dual Princes is an option now and there are people who are happy with this and to take this away because some people cry 'fluff' will guarantee to upset some people. Some people will be happy if the substitute is a good replacement. But right now those people are going to want to stick with what is working for them for fear that change will upset the balance for them. So can you blame them for not being sure about the idea?

 

If they can do it while keep both parties happy then why not? I don't know if it can happen though, it might be a case of a codex that upsets people the least.

 

It used to be you could only have 1 prince. Then they gave the ability to have 2. This made a lot of people angry. It also made a lot of people glad because of the gameplay advantages of having 2. Now you are arguing that if they restricted it to 1 again it would make the people who like 2 angry. Yes, it would. But it would also make a lot of people happy to see it changed back. If you are going to argue that it shouldn't be changed because that would upset people, then it most certainly should be changed back because it upset a lot more people when changed in the first place.

 

Overall though how happy or sad it makes people shouldn't be the decided point. It should be based on a combination of fluff and gameplay balance aimed at keeping the uniqueness of chaos in both perspectives while still keeping it competitive but balanced.

[Ashe Darke]

Fair enough on being busy.

 

Well you're just guessing as to how many people would be prefer it. Short of asking everyone there is no way of knowing. Basing this on the internet isn't entirely fair because the people who feel wronged are going to vent. Where? On forums like this. While the people who are happy about it aren't going to complain or if they do say they like it their comments get drowned out so their opinions aren't going to be heard or remembered. Does a cup of sea water accurately portray what the whole of the sea is like? No. Also I'm not sure if they want to make another move that will result in anyone reacting like they did last time around. Why not have Princes and Greater Princes. 0-2 for the first and 0-1 for the other but only one type can be taken so either one Great Prince or 1-2 Lesser Princes. You have your UBER Prince for the 3.5 fans and two lesser ones for the people who like the set up in 4th and there's more options like people want.

 

While one might feel that is how they should do it I personally think they're going to do it based on what will bring them the most money and I think the happiness of the customers will factor into that. I know I'm portraying them as some sort of greedy/evil company but the people I know who work for the company all say just that and that the attitude the higher up you go the more it becomes like that. I've met some of areas managers and they're all geared towards money and they're not all that high up. It was kinda scary.

 

It should be based on a combination of fluff and gameplay balance aimed at keeping the uniqueness of chaos in both perspectives while still keeping it competitive but balanced.

I agree but it will probably be based on their perspective of what chaos is which is liable to change and could vary from what you or I feel is chaosy. While 2 (Lesser) Princes is far fetched I don't think it would never happen and maybe they want to change their fluff to make it more plausible. They certainly could if they wanted to. Whether you agree with it or not is a different matter, but isn't that what caused all the trouble in the first place. Maybe they won't be so extreme in their changes next time.

[D3athwolf]

If someone were to compile a list of these changes and make a custom chaos list would you guys use it? Im a chaos player and have been since 3.5 and ive been very frusterated with the current incarnation of our codex and i'm think i want to give my hand over to making an updated list.

[Spacefrisian]

If someone were to compile a list of these changes and make a custom chaos list would you guys use it? Im a chaos player and have been since 3.5 and ive been very frusterated with the current incarnation of our codex and i'm think i want to give my hand over to making an updated list.

 

That would be something.

 

On a side note i myself would also like to see the Daemon codex and Lost and the Damned included in the Chaos Spacemarine codex. Although that would be wishfull thinking and the codex would need a name change to "Forces of Chaos" or something.

[the jeske]

Thoughts, ideas?

am a realist here , the legion rules wont come back [well maybe after a desing team switch] . lords giving speciala USR ? not going to happen . unless it is something generic for undivided lords , if you dont pick mark give one unit the anti tank/infiltration/scoring status. the legions stuff could be done with named characters [a raptor asp champion makes all raptors give -1LD . a AL asp champion gives a unit he joins inf etc] .

 

 

Well that's great but I don't give a damn if someone's army looks like mine. Nor do I care if mine looks like someone else's, I don't pay attention to what other people doing and if they're doing something I don't agree with ahh well, it's not like it's my army. Sure it might be annoying from a tournament POV, but again that's not everyone.

m8 it is not annoying for tournaments in fact it is good , because less builds means less match ups to learn to play against. the problem is that that A it is boring and B it totally make no sense for people who had unique different working armies [both in game play and unit type used] to play with the same thing . Ask a SW or BT player what he would do If GW told him to play with codex SM , because he can use counts as to for his unique options and he is now even blessed , because in one army he can play with a ultramarine nid hunters[aka sternguard] BA vets[venguard] all led by a BA cpt [counts as sicarius] . and when the SW player asks "but we never had hvy weapons in GH" GW tells him "just dont use them then".

And so what if someone else is doing something you don't agree with? Why interfere? Like they could give a damn what anyone else thinks about what they're doing as long as they're happy with it

because the ork dex was a good dex. the ig dex was a good dex. the sw were ok . sm were ok too[good before ig showed up] . they had fluff , interesting options that opened up different builds. they a lot of space for odd builds[that still worked] . chaos doesnt have that. 2 builds [mecha and lr rush] one dominant choice for every slot in FoC with the exeption of troops where it has 2 :lol: . now all of this would have been ok if the 3.5 dex never existed. if through the 4th ed we just had the JJ dex . we could say man playable units at last for our BL armies . But 3.5 did exist , people did play NL, AL, WB etc and those were different armies, with different builds , that were unique . I mean you say you played DG. cool DG had a really nice infiltration build in 3.5 sctyth lord with infiltration and speed , plasma DG with infiltration . not top tier , but still fun to play . AL had a infiltration list too , yes it used speed Lords [or more offten Lt] too , but it was different it was using autocanon havocks , minimax it was a more shoty redeploy army build , while DG was a more short range /assault one. Same rule used as base for both armies , but different game play .

 

Why not have Princes and Greater Princes. 0-2 for the first and 0-1 for the other but only one type can be taken so either one Great Prince or 1-2 Lesser Princes.

because GW is not going to do it? they would never do unit choices they never plan to make models for and they already have GD , which could be used as counts as for those [so if they actually made models for small and big princes the sales could not be good]. as I said before If the lord stays the way he is now and the prince stays the way he is now too [or both get the same kind of buff like demon prince getting demon weapons and lord getting eternal warrior] , the prince will always be better . so unit choices will look the same [again].

 

I agree but it will probably be based on their perspective of what chaos is which is liable to change and could vary from what you or I feel is chaosy.

but you will agree that if a BL lists that mixs cults , a DG nurgle only cult list and a WB always undivided lists look almost the same and have identical game play it is bad and not very chaosy ?

 

 

Well you're just guessing as to how many people would be prefer it.

well not really . look at the chaos sales in europe . when 3.5 dex was there it was the second best selling item they had [after sm] , it didnt matter if eldar/tau or anything else new came out , chaos always had good sales . right now chaos doesnt really exist in sales, we are no different from DA . and if sales go down it means fewer people buy chaos stuff , if fewer people buy chaos then fewer people play with it.

 

I disagree with you here about the interent being not a good medium to check changes. What does it mean if the slanesh part of the forum doesnt get new posts in 3-4 days ? how many armies in the list section are identical since the 5th ed started ? how does it look on other sites ? even if all that doesnt say how many people left or dislike the dex , it still does say something about the trends of playing chaos sm [again see this in 3.5 we would have said AL, WB or any other legion . right now we say csm because there is more or less one army].

 

wargear they just concentrated on allowing diversity in army aesthetics.

this one again . ok so in the 5th I could have had 2 Lt or an demon prince and an LT both killy[more killy then now] , now I have to take DPs [because other options suck] and that is not even going in to the differen version of princes [stature with dark blade . glaive , dread ax for IW , syren prince for EC , infiltration nurgle ones with scyth etc] .

Could I take troops with different marks in one army ? yep that what BL was for. Wanted 9 oblits sure IW [and everyone else save for the cult guys could take 3 oblits ] . defilers , bikes , raptor hvy builds , demon bombs with actual chaos demons . everything was there.

that is actual choices . Now the aesthetics were there any rules in the 3.5 dex that forbid you to use counts as and play a BL list as a DG painted one ? nope there were non . so again the thorpe dex gives nothing.

What it does give us , is a smaller number of viable or even working choices , excluding two things. oblits and 2 stature DPs instead of just 1 . See the problem for me is [both as a gamer and as someone who actually likes to play with chaos ] is that before I didnt had to use oblits , play BL or use stature princes. there were many builds , of different tier . some better some worse[for example my AL , if it ever lost a roll to deploy infiltrators was always screwed] , but there was varity . rigth now there is non .