New Chaos codex

[Ashe Darke]

Not long after I sent my last post I did have a bit of a revelatory moment about some of the stuff you said. The sales stuff, if true (meaning my explanations could be true, but were poor judgements on their behalf), is a good reason to go back to something similar to 3.5 you're right, but I think that is more as a general feeling rather than things like a single leader. But like you said that idea of one guy really stuck with you. And I do see your point which brings me back to something I said a while ago, if the new HQ choice is to allow a single character but if it was as powerful as having 2 Princes now and it works then I'd go with that. If it felt like I was lacking a bit because of it being a single unit rather than two with more battle field flexiblity that would be a shame but I'm sure they would do something to compensate. Well I hope so anyway.

 

Another point that had occurred to me was the current trend of codexes having powerful units and people going 'Woah have you seen that?', seems to be quite a selling point. Given this current trend I'd expect that to be apparent in the next one. This trend may have died down by the time the new book actually comes out though.

 

While the new one is certainly diluted in a lot of areas, that isn't what i meant. I meant that there is literally no fluff covering this sort of thing. In the previous codex lords/princes were described as powerful egomaniacs, and that was why there could be only one. In the new codex lords/princes are still powerful egomaniacs. But any idea of this being a restriction is gone, and not because of new fluff saying they like to work together. It simply isn't mentioned.

Maybe they don't want them to be like that any more or they wanted to loosen the bond between fluff and game-play, but I think the thing I said above might have caused this debate to start to come to an end. I'm sorry it's taken this long for the things you've been saying to finally click but I knew we'd get there eventually if we just kept plugging away.

 

If it was a lie to avoid taking more flak it was a terrible one. Saying that he did it to give people more options would have gotten him much less flak. It would have been a poor game balance choice instead of an idiot and oblivous gamebalance oversight.

So he said he didn't think people would take it rather than he felt it would give people more options? Well yeah he probably did say the wrong thing although I still don't think it's unbalanced. You haven't really said why it's unbalanced yet unless you mean you can't take just one and still be competitive. The codex does have a line that does support that he didn't think people would take 2 - 'Why not take both a Chaos Lord and a Daemon Prince' - but it has occurred to me that maybe he thought people would only take one and just do like they did before. But this does make the Prince under powered for that as arguably you need 2 to be competitive.

 

Perhaps it is the fluff they want used. But it is less developed inferior fluff. Other races have new codexes add to the fluff and retcons are more or less clear. The new chaos codex only adds to renegade fluff and never retcons or overrides old stuff.

Well I've not fully read each of the books but I have to agree that 4th does feel like chaos lite. I have no doubt this will change in the next edition, it's just whether it will be as free as 4th is which is the real debate.

 

Just so you know where I am coming from, i believe that the various restrictions like there can be only one and ancient enemies make chaos far more interesting. When I bought the chaos codex i wanted to play a powerful and characterful force. I wanted to make an army that represented chaos well. And I believe restrictions are essential to the character and flavor of chaos. This is what differentiates it from other types of marines. You get more powerful stuff but at a price beyond just point costs. The restrictions enrich the flavor of the different god's forces and the different legions. Having only 1 prince keeps that prince special the way its supposed to be. Having two breaks the immersion and isn't worth doing for such gamey reasons. In the current codex 2 princes are essential for competitive armies. Everyone runs around with tons of them. This has devalued the character and importance of them, which is a real shame.

I did look through the rest of the book and I couldn't find anything on Ancient Enemies which is a shame. I guess they wanted done with it for that book. It might be back in the next one although it depends on whether they want to stick with the same strategy. As for characters well I've said at the top. I've not used the old Princes but was having all that power in one unit always as handy tactically? Maybe they thought half the power being able to be two places at once was better as there are times I'm glad mine can go off and deal with different things.

 

I do agree that new codex does need to be more interesting, I just hope that as someone who finds the game-play more important than the fluff, that I will still have a viable army. Just like I imagine you hope that the options of game-play doesn't ruin the fluff for you as well as your idea of what a chaos army should be. I hope they get the right balance and I'd hate for either of us to shafted.

 

Remember that it isn't just princes that are restricted, its all lords. That is the defining diffference between chaos and loyalist. A chaos warband revolves around the style of the lord and his wishes and whims. It is an extension of his character. Whereas a captain leads his force but it is still defined by the doctrines of The Codex.

Well there isn't any way to give a Lord/Sorcerer much flavour in this one but I had never disputed that. But from what I've heard all the upgrades were unwieldy in the last version (not sure if I've said this already or if I just planned to, sorry if you're reading this a 2nd time). The people I've spoken to about it used to forget all the upgrades they took. It's my issue with the soon to be obsolete nid codex. There's too many stat upgrade options that can't be represented on the model, and it makes writing a list longer than it should be. I've not read to new nid codex but if they've managed to do something decent with that then maybe they could do the same thing for the chaos one concerning the amount of flexibility in upgrades. Maybe 5 sections for HQs (4 gods and undecided :devil: ) with more than a spell, stat increase and a daemon weapon to their name.

 

I would like to see the thing I mentioned about Princes and Greater Princes. People mentioned stuff about they wouldn't do it due to them having to make models although they could just use the yet to be released plastic ones as normal ones and the power armoured one as Great Ones but anyway. Well that's what I think would be interesting and I might like to see (provided there are more upgrades), which hasn't been the focus of this debate, although it is the thread topic. Sorry thread.

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

Remember that it isn't just princes that are restricted, its all lords. That is the defining diffference between chaos and loyalist. A chaos warband revolves around the style of the lord and his wishes and whims. It is an extension of his character. Whereas a captain leads his force but it is still defined by the doctrines of The Codex.

 

Great point well made. I think with each differing Lord having a very singular agenda that is swayed in a certain direction by their god but branching off on their own does lean towards having more Chapter specific rules per Traitor legion, or even having a series of skills, similar to the set within the old (3.5) codex to make your army specific dependant on what "home made" fluff you write or think up for the use of your Renegade chapter.

 

The Chambers "I didn't think people would do it" apology, in my opinion, does not lend to pacification of all Chaos players. I left playing, collecting etc just as 3.5 was released. When I finally came back, after months of pouring over the 3.5 dex, bought and near unused, I was horrified to see the 4th ed. With all those options, all those available builds etc, I could see quickly that there was not much that was now available.

 

On the political economy aspect of what is bought etc, speaking to many of the staff from the stores I go in, they all say Chaos sales have been down since the new codex came out, and I have only come across one staff member who has said "Chaos is unpredictable, up one minute, down the next, it's been reflected in the Codex, Chaos players should live with it". The others have all said that either it has limited what they want to buy/paint/play and those who are non-Chaos (burn them all in a furnace of Khorne) have all said that they no longer enjoy playing Chaos because they all know what they will face 95% of the time.

 

The arguement of "where does it say that 2 DPs can't fight alonside each other" is only slightly less redundant than the "where are there Dinosaurs in the bible?" I'm sure they were in there once, before the edit in the times of King James, but that doesn't mean that they never existed when we have evidence of several species of large lizards... Maybe a middle ground rule of "only 1 DP in armies of less than 2,500 pts or such, just in the same way as there used to be a rule (in 3.5 i think) where Abaddon could only be chosen in armies of 2,000 pts or larger based on the fact that any battle less than that, he would not waste his time on.

 

I do feel that this thread, however is not about what is "right" or "wrong", but purely a collection of opinion of what could be changed in order to make the next Dex more fun. The whole arguement of fluff is leading down a similar path where the Pope comes out and says "hey, Christians of the world, ignore the Bible now, it's all about the Bible 2nd Edition now, where Adam was actually an East London Market trader who met Eve on a night out in the Queen Vic, a tragedy ensues, the universe continues to grow, more tragedy ensues before he ends up buying a landrette..." or very much a "creactionism vs evolution" arguement. Pick your favorite. Or make your own up...

[Sovereign]

1. Lash removed completely

2. Nerfhammered Plaguemarines and Oblits

3. kSons, Dreads, Spawn, and Possessed as the new uber-awesome must-have hawtness

4. Markable Daemons (only with correct HQ)

5. Cult Marines as Elites (Troops only with correct Special Character)

6. Chosen & Possessed as Troops (with correct HQ)

7. Defiler squadrons :P

 

SWING, PENDULUM, SWING!

 

<_<

[Magnus Thane]

1. Lash removed completely

2. Nerfhammered Plaguemarines and Oblits

3. kSons, Dreads, Spawn, and Possessed as the new uber-awesome must-have hawtness

4. Markable Daemons (only with correct HQ)

5. Cult Marines as Elites (Troops only with correct Special Character)

6. Chosen & Possessed as Troops (with correct HQ)

7. Defiler squadrons :P

 

SWING, PENDULUM, SWING!

 

<_<

 

I'd love that! Especially an army with Termies as Troops and competitive 1000 Sons.

[the jeske]

The Chambers "I didn't think people would do it" apology, in my opinion, does not lend to pacification of all Chaos players. I left playing, collecting etc just as 3.5 was released

It was not chambers who said that , wasnt working for GW since they scrateched his plans to change w40k when the 3ed to 4th ed switch came. It was Alisio [the guy who made the dex with thorpe] that said that and then JJ said the same at a con in UK.

 

As for characters well I've said at the top. I've not used the old Princes but was having all that power in one unit always as handy tactically? Maybe they thought half the power being able to be two places at once was better as there are times I'm glad mine can go off and deal with different things.

well first of all your missing one thing. there were many demon princes builds in 3.5 dex and not all had stature[not all were MC] . second thing yes one was offten more then enough , you didnt need more then one counter unit in IW [the so offten used dread ax build] and if it was allowed to have more then one Glaive prince people not playing chaos really wouldnt like it . third thing not everyone went for a big costlly prince , people were playing with infiltration Lt with speed and sometimes darkblade/power weapon[+str + FC = str 6 or 8 on charge with a18"+d6"charge range] or a combination of lord + Lt . also if you played 1750 or more there was enough points to buy a a stature DP and an Lt. Tacticlly the dex was more flexible. right now it is 2 prince [or one if you play 1k points , but sometimes even at 1k it is better to take 2] or nothing else.

 

 

The people I've spoken to about it used to forget all the upgrades they took

so the dex got cut because people were lazy to learn their own rules [like demonic strenght gives+1 str etc and that you cant spend more then X points on gifts and Y points on wargear ] ? If too many rules are the problem then why do all the other dexs have so many of them , have you seen the nids dex ? how many options both gear and buildwise to nids have for just the tyrant ? how about SW or IG ? those actually have more rules for their units then they had before [sagas , orders , new type of units , actually playable special characters etc].

I would like to see the thing I mentioned about Princes and Greater Princes. People mentioned stuff about they wouldn't do it due to them having to make models although they could just use the yet to be released plastic ones as normal ones and the power armoured one as Great Ones but anyway.

if they ever do that , they would be an upgrade for chaos demon dex and not space marines.

[IronWinds]

I've said this time and time again yet people (except for Jeske who is very much a realist) refuse to accept that GW will do whatever they can to get more money, even if it means changing the fluff. There seems to be a strong sense of false ownership over the chaos fluff from some forum users which is odd seen as it's not their intellectual property, and they seem to get upset when the actual owner changes it. There also seems to be a strong adversity to change, particularly in things that are out of their hands and that have already happened. 'Because it's good for their business' and 'It will increase sales' seem not to be valid reasons to them which is odd seen as the owner is a worldwide business.

 

Oh this makes perfect sense to me... since I'm in business(stocks to be exact) and while my job is not to analyze companies I have all the skills and capabilities required to do so. The codex and minis are a product created by GW, and if that product is of inferior quality(like the 4th ed CSM codex) people should complain about their inferior product... most corporations 'like' it when this happens because they know what to improve... 'not liking it' would be an extreme sign of weakness for any company. Most companies have to create surveys, give customers free crap to take the surveys, etc. to get this information and see what people really think. GW is lucky in that their customers are rather vocal and have huge forums where they express themselves.

 

GW could massivly change the fluff tomorrow since it is their IP... won't happen, customers would revolt against them, and then they would have to change it back. Imagine coke decided to change the coke formula so it taste a lot different. People wouldn't 'deal' with it, they would drink pepsi instead... so Coke can never do that. 40k fluff is like the coke formula. They can make minor changes that few would even notice, they can change the side projects even more(like coke 0) but for the most part they have to keep most of it the same.

 

And GWs biggest thing beyond just managing the fluff is to create a good product. Most chaos players hate 4th ed chaos codex, a relative 'few' in comparison to all long time chaos players like it. That is an inferior product. I think the reason it was an inferior product is that the 3.5 was seen by many as too good. So when they made 4th ed they were over worried to avoid the same thing. It was rather stupid on GWs part as CSM was their second biggest line at the time. And the fact that it is not the second biggest line anymore proves how horrible this codex is. Now the complaints that most chaos players have is that the CSM codex is crappy, they want legions, and it hasn't been touched in a while but the layout of the codex is horrible. If GW has an ear on the ground anywhere... which I hope they do(its not like they con't have large groups of customers gathering online :cry: ), and their management has half a brain the next chaos codex will be at least on par with 5th ed dexs and will have some type of rule for legions.

 

Now the sad thing is that I actually don't have a lot of faith in GW HQ. While I like their products sometimes its the last stock I would ever buy myself(unless I was going to day trade it to take advantage of a market swing) or recommend for a client. So I actually wouldn't be surprised if GW screwed up CSM again, nor would I be surprised if GW wasn't taking advantage of forums like this one.

 

 

On the same note...

1. Lash removed completely

2. Nerfhammered Plaguemarines and Oblits

3. kSons, Dreads, Spawn, and Possessed as the new uber-awesome must-have hawtness

4. Markable Daemons (only with correct HQ)

5. Cult Marines as Elites (Troops only with correct Special Character)

6. Chosen & Possessed as Troops (with correct HQ)

7. Defiler squadrons

 

SWING, PENDULUM, SWING!

 

....will probably all come true because it would sell minis. I wouldn't care, as long as basic CSMs are good and when obliterators get nurfed one of the following glows(predator/defiler/vindicator) because I have plenty of each.

 

The arguement of "where does it say that 2 DPs can't fight alonside each other" is only slightly less redundant than the "where are there Dinosaurs in the bible?" I'm sure they were in there once, before the edit in the times of King James, but that doesn't mean that they never existed when we have evidence of several species of large lizards... Maybe a middle ground rule of "only 1 DP in armies of less than 2,500 pts or such, just in the same way as there used to be a rule (in 3.5 i think) where Abaddon could only be chosen in armies of 2,000 pts or larger based on the fact that any battle less than that, he would not waste his time on.

 

Completely off topic, but there is a mention of 'dragons' in the bible... And 1 DP per army under 2500pts basically is a 0-1 restriction which I'm obviously for. Anything beyond 2500pts and your using 2 FOCs anyways.

 

well first of all your missing one thing. there were many demon princes builds in 3.5 dex and not all had stature[not all were MC]

 

I have a model I probably spent close to 100 hours converting and painting that was a non-stature prince in terminator armor. The only thing I can do now is a counts as abbadon.

 

And actually I stopped playing for a couple years after 4th was released and I haven't played nearly as much since. And I actually did the prince, 4-5 rhinos, obliterators back in 3.5 so the list we all use was around back then. However now everyone plays what I play and I couldn't change to something else if I wanted. Use to be chaos was the only army one needed because you could do anything with it. Not anymore.

[Cale]

I have a model I probably spent close to 100 hours converting and painting that was a non-stature prince in terminator armor. The only thing I can do now is a counts as abbadonn.

 

Or you could just play him as a Daemon Prince. There are no rules that say that your DP has to be a particular size, or have a particular set of wargear modeled on him. The sort of attitude which says that your awesome most favoritest model ever is now only good for something you're never going to use is exactly what I was talking about when I said, much earlier on, that many of the problems people have with the codex are more a lack of imagination than anything else.

 

If you like your model so much, play it as something that's good. It was a Daemon Prince before. Does the fact that the rules for Daemon Princes have changed prevent him from being a Daemon Prince now?

[IronWinds]

He was a 200+pt mini that always traveled with his chosen terminator bodyguard. S 5 mastercrafted spikey lightning claws, 6 attacks not charging, T5, 2+/5+, 4 wounds, immune to insta-death, psychic powers(wind of chaos) to boot. Only got used in huge games even back then, but whatever his LR pulled up to was dead within a turn. I don't think the current rules would even do him justice. I've considered counting him as a Nurgle prince because he looks very durable, but honestly that would be an injustice to the model and my armies fluff. Abbadon it is. And actually his statline is not that much different from Abbys. Biggest difference is Abbadon's demon weapon and its rules.

 

My other prince(a heavily modified bionic spider lord) leads my army in most battles anyways. The Main guy ^above^ only ever got used in big games. I guess I like the fluff that way, someone so important would never get involved in small battles.

[Ashe Darke]

GW could massivly change the fluff tomorrow since it is their IP... won't happen, customers would revolt against them, and then they would have to change it back. Imagine coke decided to change the coke formula so it taste a lot different. People wouldn't 'deal' with it, they would drink pepsi instead... so Coke can never do that. 40k fluff is like the coke formula. They can make minor changes that few would even notice, they can change the side projects even more(like coke 0) but for the most part they have to keep most of it the same.

Well the fluff can never change as they say it all count, but the more recent things they write one could say is that's the fluff they want you to be using, particularly for that codex. I've not found any mention of Ancient Enemies in 4th, and there's things saying that you can have two guys leading. So while the old stuff hasn't gone as that is impossible, this newer fluff doesn't include it and it's implied that it is supposed to be used with that codex. They've not written anything out, they've just loosened the restrictions. So not new fluffer, extra different fluff.

 

As for me explaining their choices for 4th Ed well I've elaborated that when I responded to Drudge. I realise that if the sales were like that then they might re-think it although 'most money' will still probably be on their agendas.

 

My theory is this (it's not a serious one so don't start gibbering on like old women), the nids codex wasn't over the top as the trend needed to stop, so we'll have some mediocre codexes for a while, and then new chaos will come out and blow them away.

[the jeske]

There are no rules that say that your DP has to be a particular size

gw did make official no FW demon prince models , so size kind of a does matter.

 

 

that many of the problems people have with the codex are more a lack of imagination than anything else

you want to hear about EC again ? or cultists or demon bombs ? or LTs or havocks [my AL lost 3 minimax 2 cultits untis and 2 havocks units . even if im kind of a did squeez in chosen and havocks in to the same 4th ed dex build the list just doesnt work at all.] most of the problems have nothing to do with imagination , if someone removed 3-4 choice out of codex sm and then made 3-4 other unplayable it would be the same. lets be honest Cale . did sm get new models/untis in the new dex ? yes they did . does each other new dex after codex chaos sm gets new units and new models ? yes all of them do . That alone would be ebough to be pisses off[specially as orks and demons were techniclly done at the same time orks were even rdy before csm ] .

 

Does the fact that the rules for Daemon Princes have changed prevent him from being a Daemon Prince now?

aside for players asking you to replace it with a GW legal DP model when they check LoS to it , no . with counts as you can play with anything you want . It could be a stone on a base.

Now the sad thing is that I actually don't have a lot of faith in GW HQ. While I like their products sometimes its the last stock I would ever buy myself(unless I was going to day trade it to take advantage of a market swing) or recommend for a client.

well m8 GW aint here to make you happy , it is there to make money[not that it is a bad thing ] . You play more then a year ? your not in their focus group . I can imagine that people who were starting to play had problem with the 3.5 dex [but then again most of those people have problems with any dex as they dont really stay for a long time ] , stuff was cut lists are easy to make[well there is one army, so they cant be hard to make] . did it piss of vets , people who played specific armies [or those who remember that once the chaos legions hated each other and it took a great leader like abadon to make them work as one and even then they didnt like it]. sure it did , but Gw is never going to admit it . I remember the worse dex thorpe wrote . The old dark elf one. A dex so bad even DE players didnt buy it , they had to WD errata it because it was selling so bad [or from the point of view of gamers , because it was so weak] . Even then they didnt say we :cussed up . You think now they will change stuff. If the next chaos dex is anything[even a lite version ] of the 3.5 dex it would be like saying "we were wrong and we forced you to play with the same thing for X years". nah the closest dex that can[but doesnt have to] be good is going to be the one in 6th ed middle of edition.

 

So while the old stuff hasn't gone as that is impossible, this newer fluff doesn't include it and it's implied that it is supposed to be used with that codex.

if each new dex retcons everything in the older dex and the new dex doesnt have any fluff , then it means that chaos is one big happy family . the legions dont hate each other, there was no legion war , hey actually all those dudes are bro and constantlly hang out with each other. this is the official fluff we have now . one of the good things about our dex[fluff side] is that we are one of those few armies who are not mentioned to have destroyed and eldar craft world.

[Ashe Darke]

if each new dex retcons everything in the older dex and the new dex doesnt have any fluff , then it means that chaos is one big happy family . the legions dont hate each other, there was no legion war , hey actually all those dudes are bro and constantlly hang out with each other. this is the official fluff we have now . one of the good things about our dex[fluff side] is that we are one of those few armies who are not mentioned to have destroyed and eldar craft world.

Well like I said, the other stuff is not gone and is not invalid. Ancient Enemies gone from 4th Ed means I presume that not all of them hate each other that much, some still do while some don't maybe because they in a warband. Wait isn't that the theme of 4th?

 

I've not said it has replaced it, I said that, quite clearly. So it's not replaced legion wars or anything to do with eldar craftworlds, they're still in other books that are valid. I'm guessing they don't want to have to write out the same fluff over and over especially when it doesn't have as much bearing the units in there as other fluff. If they did do that then each iteration of the codex would get thicker etc as more stuff was written.

 

The fluff in 4th seems to be the relevant fluff to the style of the codex, warbands etc which is probably why there isn't so much information on stuff I'm guessing they deemed not as relevant. Just like I'm sure the fluff in the next codex will be relevant to the other content in the book i.e. the army/units.

[the jeske]

I'm guessing they don't want to have to write

aside for the really lame thorpe SW story that doesnt make sense , the rest of the fluff we have in the 4th ed dex is copy past. So they kind of a did write "everything" again[with the small difference that the 4th dex everything isnt 10% of the 3.5 one] and it is like that , mostlly because they had to rush the dex to fill in the void that happened because of the ork model range not being ready. In the end both fluff and legion rules look like this not because GW wanted to totally do away with legions . just by looking at codex orks which was ready before codex chaos sm , it would have been easy to cut most of the options , but still leave some space for custom builds .

Ancient Enemies gone from 4th Ed means I presume that not all of them hate each other that much, some still do while some don't maybe because they in a warband

what kind of a goes against 20 years of chaos fluff. different cults hate each other , because if other marked guys succed other gods get more powerful . csm distrust people from within they own ranks , trusting [and lets just say that counting on people to give you fire support does have something to do with trust] other legion guys even without the legion war would have been odd. It would also make abadon smaller and less important . if some no one warband leader can force different factions and different legions fight for him , then what is so special about BL ? It just doesnt make sense that crazed guys with high does of paranoia walk hand in hand , like a happy family .

I do understand it from the desing point of view. If they cut all legion options [like they did] and left the ancient enemy[while knowing it wont be there in codex demons] rule the chaos dex would have been lame as hell . GW [and it is not their first time] desing thought that people want to play with mixed armies[you know cool different models :) so many ways to pain different units :lol: ] , that people didnt care if they play IW or AL or what ever . They did the same back in the days when they rerealesed epic. Everything thought that "imperial" armies will be a mix of navay, sm and IG +titants. But suddenlly tournaments and pick up games were full of pure IG or pure sm builds and soon it was obvious that stuff had to be changed[sm for example had 0 AA ] , new options had to be added in WD to make stuff playable . this is what I think about it, GW droped the ball , thinking that people didnt care about playing a certain army . They didnt think that playing IW or NL is the same as playing BA or SW [and that players may not like the fact that their armies got cut] . Next dex ? nothing will change , GW will not make a new dex with 3.5 in mind . They will make the new dex with 4th ed and the 4th ed new players in mind [who by their standards will be 3x vets by then] . Yes we will probablly get some changes [as much GW is blind , they do see the sales drop] , maybe icons for demons , maybe lords giving USR , maybe some asp champions upgrades for one or two units [anti tank for havocks , -1ld for raptors etc] . Will it be better then the thorpe dex ? yes , but that doing better then the thorpe dex isnt hard to do.

[Legatus]

if each new dex retcons everything in the older dex and the new dex doesnt have any fluff , then it means that chaos is one big happy family . the legions dont hate each other, there was no legion war , hey actually all those dudes are bro and constantlly hang out with each other. this is the official fluff we have now .

Sorry, but that looks like you have not even read the fluff of the 4th Edition Codex Chaos.

 

"Little remains of the organised Legions that waged war upon ancient Terra. Millennia of jealousies and infighting have broken dorn the Legions into companies and warbands of varying size."

4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, page 17.

 

"It is the nature of Chaos that infighting and rivalry keep the Chaos Space Marines from permanently uniting."

4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, page 24.

 

 

Ancient Enemies gone from 4th Ed means I presume that not all of them hate each other that much, some still do while some don't maybe because they in a warband

what kind of a goes against 20 years of chaos fluff. different cults hate each other , because if other marked guys succed other gods get more powerful . csm distrust people from within they own ranks , trusting [and lets just say that counting on people to give you fire support does have something to do with trust] other legion guys even without the legion war would have been odd.

And this makes me wonder hwo thoroughly you have read any previous Chaos fluff.

 

Index Astartes Night Lords explains that they will gladly make use of cult Legion units, even if they despise their devotion.

 

Index Astartes Alpha Legion explains that alliances with other Traitor Legion forces are one of many tactics employed by them.

 

Index Astartes Word Bearers explains that Word bearer Hosts are all very different in organisation, as it depends entirely on teh whim of the Dark Apostle. Basically, anything goes, as long as it advances his agenda.

 

Index Astartes World Eaters explains that units of the splintered World Eaters will fight for any Chaos Lord that is willing to employ them.

 

Index Astartes Emperor's Children explains that units of the shattered Emperor's Children will fight for any Lord who is willing to employ them.

 

 

Even the 3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines, which was arguably most focused on separating the Lgions from each other, had the following passage in it's introduction to the Codex (page 2):

 

"Armies can be built to represent just one of these Legions or an alliance of members of several, bound together by the magnetism of an especially powerful lord."

 

 

That all the different Legion forces hate each others guts and would never consider allying unless Abaddon were asking for it is a pure fairy tale, but I have no idea how that got started. Chaos Space Marine armies have allways largely consisted of a mix of different Legion units. Playing just one Legion is a great way to theme your force, but it is not what the background demands.

[Dammeron]

if each new dex retcons everything in the older dex and the new dex doesnt have any fluff , then it means that chaos is one big happy family . the legions dont hate each other, there was no legion war , hey actually all those dudes are bro and constantlly hang out with each other. this is the official fluff we have now .

Sorry, but that looks like you have not even read the fluff of the 4th Edition Codex Chaos.

 

"Little remains of the organised Legions that waged war upon ancient Terra. Millennia of jealousies and infighting have broken dorn the Legions into companies and warbands of varying size."

4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, page 17.

 

"It is the nature of Chaos that infighting and rivalry keep the Chaos Space Marines from permanently uniting."

4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, page 24.

 

 

Ancient Enemies gone from 4th Ed means I presume that not all of them hate each other that much, some still do while some don't maybe because they in a warband

what kind of a goes against 20 years of chaos fluff. different cults hate each other , because if other marked guys succed other gods get more powerful . csm distrust people from within they own ranks , trusting [and lets just say that counting on people to give you fire support does have something to do with trust] other legion guys even without the legion war would have been odd.

And this makes me wonder hwo thoroughly you have read any previous Chaos fluff.

 

Index Astartes Night Lords explains that they will gladly make use of cult Legion units, even if they despise their devotion.

 

Index Astartes Alpha Legion explains that alliances with other Traitor Legion forces are one of many tactics employed by them.

 

Index Astartes Word Bearers explains that Word bearer Hosts are all very different in organisation, as it depends entirely on teh whim of the Dark Apostle. Basically, anything goes, as long as it advances his agenda.

 

Index Astartes World Eaters explains that units of the splintered World Eaters will fight for any Chaos Lord that is willing to employ them.

 

Index Astartes Emperor's Children explains that units of the shattered Emperor's Children will fight for any Lord who is willing to employ them.

 

 

Even the 3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines, which was arguably most focused on separating the Lgions from each other, had the following passage in it's introduction to the Codex (page 2):

 

"Armies can be built to represent just one of these Legions or an alliance of members of several, bound together by the magnetism of an especially powerful lord."

 

 

That all the different Legion forces hate each others guts and would never consider allying unless Abaddon were asking for it is a pure fairy tale, but I have no idea how that got started. Chaos Space Marine armies have allways largely consisted of a mix of different Legion units. Playing just one Legion is a great way to theme your force, but it is not what the background demands.

 

 

I agree; rather than a universally applicable and synthetic rule that demonstrates this aspect of Chaos Space Marine forces, there should instead be particular options in the army list or potential "builds" that demonstrate the benefits and deficits of both. I still stand entirely by the philosophy that it is possible to create a single all singing, all dancing Chaos army list from which convincing and characterful forces of both specific Traitor Legions and Renegade warbands can be created, along with Daemon armies etc without too much in the way of compromise to one or the other. I also stand by the persapective that it need not be hideously complicated OR monstrously acetic to achieve this. It is a matter of consideration and balance. In point of fact, I'd go so far as to say that no Chaos Space Marine army list has quite hit the nail on the head yet, though 3.5 came close. Where it failed was in terms of general structure (the various rules and sub lists and war gear rules were all over the place) and by introducing the unnecessary appendix Traitor Legion army lists. Similar army styles that these lists provided could have been achieved very easily by simple adaptations to the core army list: removing the 0-1 limit on certain units, introducing legion-specific (or at least legion-redolent) character upgrades for H.Q options (e.g. upgrading a Chaos Lord to Dark Apostle for a certain points cost etc), limiting the application of Daemonic Gifts and so on and so forth.

 

4.0 fails in that it has stripped away the complications to such a degree that character has gone with them. All of this little details that made constructing army lists interesting in and of itself, the techanically redundant but characterful wargear upgrades and chaos gifts, psychic powers, vehicle upgrades and so on and so forth. What they required was tweaking and refining, not throwing out.

 

Hopefully 5.0 or 4.5 or whatever the hell it'll eventually be will strike a happy medium.

[the jeske]

"Little remains of the organised Legions that waged war upon ancient Terra. Millennia of jealousies and infighting have broken dorn the Legions into companies and warbands of varying size."

IW didnt break up . WB have a structer like they had before the heresy . BL all anwser to abadons call , there is no freedom and doing what you want here . Yes EC and WE are broken up . NL did break up in to warbands , but still have a high command , AL always worked at company level . So yeah they were not 100k marines per legions post heresy , but it couldnt be . not with the loses they had both before and after the legion war , not with the how space and time works in the war .

 

Index Astartes Night Lords explains that they will gladly make use of cult Legion units, even if they despise their devotion

yes merceneries , but how offten were they used and how offten NL do operate alone ? how long can you stay being a member of Legion while being a follower of khorn/slanesh/nurgle etc before either what your god tells you to do or what you leaders tell you to do ends up in conflict?

"Armies can be built to represent just one of these Legions or an alliance of members of several, bound together by the magnetism of an especially powerful lord."

using the BL list.

 

That all the different Legion forces hate each others guts and would never consider allying unless Abaddon were asking for it is a pure fairy tale, but I have no idea how that got started. Chaos Space Marine armies have allways largely consisted of a mix of different Legion units. Playing just one Legion is a great way to theme your force, but it is not what the background demands.

how offten do legions or legion warbands fight at squad level on same planets . We dont have a lot of material for that , but we do have the last crusade . Different legions were fighting at different planets or sectors . If they were fighting at the same battle zone , they always worked as independent forces [like pms doing the siege, but the engines used being IW maned] .Chaos allaince are always one type , each party thinks that it is getting more then the other . If it werent seen that way , they would be punished by their gods[if they are cult] or by their leaders . the closest thing you can get to that is WE[who are considered mad by other chaos sm ] and most offten they end up dead as csm not from their legions dont really care what happens to them .

[Legatus]

IW didnt break up . WB have a structer like they had before the heresy . BL all anwser to abadons call , there is no freedom and doing what you want here .

With the Iron Warriors you do get the impression from the Index Astartes that they are still operating as a more cohesive force. Not so much with Word Bearers and Black Legion though.

 

Word Bearers Index Astartes:

"The various warbands of teh Word bearers, known as Hosts, are scattered throughout the Eye of terror and the Maelstrom, each led by a mighty champion known as a Dark Apostle. (...)

Each Host varies enormously in size, ranging from the equivalent of a Space Marine Battle Company to a rare few that almost equal a Chapter in size. The organisational make-up of each Host differs wildly as well, and can change depending on the whim of the Dark Apostle that leads it."

 

Black Legion Index Astartes:

"After the death of Horus, proper structure within the squads and companies disintegrated, and their later dispersal in various spacecraft further fragmented the Legion. Now warbands of virtually any size and composition can be found following Black Legion Champions - ranking officiers from older times or newly emerged leaders who have won their favor through their violent deeds. At times, such warbands rally together under the banner of a greater Champion or Abaddon himself, for a major raid or incursion into the hated Imperium. However, loyalty to differing Chaos gods often leads to internal politics and conflict."

 

 

yes merceneries , but how offten were they used and how offten NL do operate alone ? how long can you stay being a member of Legion while being a follower of khorn/slanesh/nurgle etc before either what your god tells you to do or what you leaders tell you to do ends up in conflict?

No one is saying that Chaos factions become trusting friends and will go through thick and thin together. Of course all involved parties have their own agenda in mind for agreeing to an alliance. Those reasons will constantly be evaluated, and if one of the parties decides that it is no longer in their best interest to maintain the alliance, the alliance will be broken.

 

 

For example, a small force of teh Alpha Legion and the Thousand Sons team up to attack an Imperial world. The Alpha Legion's agenda is to weaken the imperial position is this sector, but they would benefit from the Thousand Sons additional strength. The Thousand Sons suspect that there is a valuable artefact burried somewhere beneath one of the major cities, and they in turn can need the additional strength of the Alpha Legion to keep the Imperial defenders busy. After a week of combat, the Thousand Sons have found that the artefact is not actually there, or maybe has been removed already, so they now have no reason to stay on this world, just when some Imperial reinforcements are arriving. The Alpha Legion wants to continue and finish the world off, but they would still need the help of the Thousand Sons. But without any incentive for themselves, the Thousand Sons do not feel obligated to continue supporting the Alpha Legion and are leaving. For the future, the Exalted Champion overseeing teh Alpha Legion's operations in that region might have a personal grudge against the Sorcerer that was in command of the Thousand Sons for abandoning them.

 

 

using the BL list.

The point is that the 3.5 Codex suggested that armies with different allied Legion units can be played.

 

 

how offten do legions or legion warbands fight at squad level on same planets . We dont have a lot of material for that , but we do have the last crusade . Different legions were fighting at different planets or sectors

Maybe that was because you could win battles in that global campaign with the force you were playing, and at that time the Codex Chaos Space Marines was distinguishing between "Night Lords" or "Thousand Sons". Nothing would stop a campaign that is played with the current Codex from distinguishing between the Legion warbands and their distinct agendas. The Plague Marines could try to infest as many worlds as possible, while the Iron Warriors try to destroy the three fortress worlds involved. That would not stop a "Night Lords Warband" from including a few cult units. The warband would fight for the goal of the Night Lord Champion commanding it, and the allied units would simply fight for the Champion for the time being. Mercenary units from other Legions can have their own agenda (most prominently World Eaters and Emperor's Children units), and are not neccessarily feeling obliged to act out some agenda of some of their former Legion's Lords. For example, a unit of Black Legion Chosen could be fighting for a Word Bearers force, where the Chosen Cahampion might have the agenda to one day take ofer the warband entirely, taking his own warband to command. Or the allied unit could just be in it for the spoils of war. A unit of Night Lords could be allied to any other warband jsut so they would have an army to raid Imperial worlds with, and the army they ended up with happened to not be a Night Lords warband. There will be opportunities, and it does not have to be a Night Lords warband.

 

 

Essentially, most Chaos Champions are concerned mainly with their personal glory and achievement. It may be dangerous to deny a daemon primarch the command over your warband, but the Champion may not personally feel a sense of loyalty to him. A Night Lords Champion will not fight "for the Night Lords", but for himself. He will not feel the need to naturally stay with members of his former Legion, as loyalist Marines will obvously feel.

[Brother Hadafix]

If we are going to look at the fluff, then Traitor Guard and Mutants should have been added, as they are the biggest of the "mortal-ish" forces available to to any Chaos lord. Looks like GW totally dropped the ball on that occasion.

 

Tell me, how big is a War Band? Well? The new dex should definitely offer a way of getting Legion specific armies on the board, as its just as likely that they will fight under their own colours as they would any other for the Greater Glory of. The Exception to this is only 3 legions that are more likely to stick to their own.

This was well represented in the 3.5, and I hope returns under 5ed.

 

WB Dark Apostles still answer to Erebus, just as BL answer to Abadon. Or would you say that the Black Library have it very wrong on this?

 

More options are definitely needed in any new Chaos dex. Of building an army around a Legion, a warband, for daemon princes, lords and vehicles. Thats not to say that it should not be loosely structured, it should definitely follow the trend in terms of structure, but should give the wild diversity, that is Chaos that is missing from 4.0 that was in 3.5.

[Legatus]

If we are going to look at the fluff, then Traitor Guard and Mutants should have been added, as they are the biggest of the "mortal-ish" forces available to to any Chaos lord. Looks like GW totally dropped the ball on that occasion.

Only that it is not the "Codex: Mortal Forces of Chaos", but the "Codex Chaos Space Marines".

 

 

WB Dark Apostles still answer to Erebus, just as BL answer to Abadon. Or would you say that the Black Library have it very wrong on this?

When their respective Primarch calls (or Abaddon, in case of the Black Legion), then the Warbands of that Legion will most likely follow. But when they are not drafted for such a major occasion, the Warbands will go their own separate ways, perhaps even going at each other's throat. (See the BL IA quote in my previous post.)

[The 13th Goat]

With the Iron Warriors you do get the impression from the Index Astartes that they are still operating as a more cohesive force. Not so much with Word Bearers and Black Legion though.

 

Word Bearers Index Astartes:

"The various warbands of teh Word bearers, known as Hosts, are scattered throughout the Eye of terror and the Maelstrom, each led by a mighty champion known as a Dark Apostle. (...)

Each Host varies enormously in size, ranging from the equivalent of a Space Marine Battle Company to a rare few that almost equal a Chapter in size. The organisational make-up of each Host differs wildly as well, and can change depending on the whim of the Dark Apostle that leads it."

 

Actually, the Word Bearers novels do depict an organised legion run by the council on Sicarus, even if their is a little internal politiking.

 

 

Black Legion Index Astartes:

"After the death of Horus, proper structure within the squads and companies disintegrated, and their later dispersal in various spacecraft further fragmented the Legion. Now warbands of virtually any size and composition can be found following Black Legion Champions - ranking officiers from older times or newly emerged leaders who have won their favor through their violent deeds. At times, such warbands rally together under the banner of a greater Champion or Abaddon himself, for a major raid or incursion into the hated Imperium. However, loyalty to differing Chaos gods often leads to internal politics and conflict."

 

Again, novels indicate otherwise, most notably in the new Dark Creed book and in the 2nd Grey Knights's book. The legion is still organised, and follows Abaddon as their new leader. Not to say their could be internal trysts, but ultimatly Abbs is the head honcho.

 

 

No one is saying that Chaos factions become trusting friends and will go through thick and thin together. Of course all involved parties have their own agenda in mind for agreeing to an alliance. Those reasons will constantly be evaluated, and if one of the parties decides that it is no longer in their best interest to maintain the alliance, the alliance will be broken.

 

Totally agree. I think the best way to summerise it is this;

 

Sometimes a certain warrior thinks he is better than the guy in charge. Feeling the time is right and not bound to the group like loyalists, he leaves to expand his power. For whatever reason he can accumulate warriors, either by promising bloodshed (khorn), experiance (Slaanesh), knowledge (Tzeetch) or just wanton destruction (Nurgle). Gradually power grows, followers (usually cultists) accumulate and a warband is raised. However, should the the pull of the original lord be powerful enough, most may just stay put and raise through their own ranks like the Legion would usually operate.

 

 

But back onto the main point:

 

 

Things i'd like to see:

 

1. DP's count limited to point size, i.e 1 for every 1300pts for example.
   
2. More fluff on the other legions.
   
3. Some new characters and previous ones edited for use.
   
4. Cheaper lords and more customisable options
   
5. Better sorcerers
   
6. More vehicals, not just bastardized versions of SM armour
   

[Brother Hadafix]

If we are going to look at the fluff, then Traitor Guard and Mutants should have been added, as they are the biggest of the "mortal-ish" forces available to to any Chaos lord. Looks like GW totally dropped the ball on that occasion.

Only that it is not the "Codex: Mortal Forces of Chaos", but the "Codex Chaos Space Marines".

 

And that is probably the biggest failing regarding the 4.0 codex, it centres on only one of the mortal factions while it split the daemons mostly to a separate codex. It is also something I would like to see added to the next codex, though for some reason, I doubt it will.

[Legatus]

Actually, the Word Bearers novels do depict an organised legion run by the council on Sicarus, even if their is a little internal politiking.

(...)

Again, novels indicate otherwise, most notably in the new Dark Creed book and in the 2nd Grey Knights's book. The legion is still organised, and follows Abaddon as their new leader. Not to say their could be internal trysts, but ultimatly Abbs is the head honcho.

Looks like the authors have not done enought research, then.

[The 13th Goat]

Looks like the authors have not done enought research, then.

 

Considering BL authors are largely responsible for the inspiration of many models, i doubt that.

 

Plus, by sourcing IA articles your actually sourcing older material than we currently have. I agree the books should not be the standard we hold the game too, but i'd take the well thought out fluff of a novel published by the firm in charge of the fluff over a collection of magazine entries based round last edition any day. Long short, BL's all fluff is true fluff rule strikes back, but i am far more convinced by a book published in the last 2 months designed to shed light on a legion, hence why i believe your wrong.

 

Only my opinion.

[Legatus]

Plus, by sourcing IA articles your actually sourcing older material than we currently have. I agree the books should not be the standard we hold the game too, but i'd take the well thought out fluff of a novel published by the firm in charge of the fluff over a collection of magazine entries based round last edition any day.

Personally I would put more weight in a source that is published by GW themselves in all the countries where the game is marketed, that is (or at some point has been) available from all official GW retailers and placed on the shelves of the GW shops, and whose sole purpose it is to describe the background of a Chapter or Legion.

Compared to this, the Black Library novels are NOT translated by GW or Black Library and published in all the countries where GW games are sold. The novels are NOT standard GW merchandise that you can expect to find at any retailer that sells GW products, and they are NOT supposed to provide game background, they are supposed to entertain.

 

I can purchase the Black Library novels via Amazon or GW Mail Order and have no problem reading them in english. And the novels are actually translated into some other languages (though sometimes not that well, and I prefer original english), but not by BW or BL themselves. Based on that I would never assume that the Black Library material has any bearing over GW material that has officially been published and available for everyone who plays the game.

 

The Index Astartes books were an official GW published game supplement that had been available everywhere where Codices and minies were sold. Black Library books are a more limited spin off product that is not so readily available to everyone. It would not be fair to claim that the latter would be of more (or even similar) relevance to the background, as not everyone can be expected to have access to it. You could say that OOP material is also not available for everyone, but at least at some point it was, and people bought it to get official information, so that information is taken to be valid untill it is contradicted by asource of similar legitimacy.

[The 13th Goat]

IA's have been unavailable in store and online for how long now? If GW stop printing them nor allude to them in the current incarnation of the game, then in my opinion their less relevent in the current incarnation, while the events in the books DIRECTLY relate to fluff GW fabricate and as such can be understood to offer insight into the Warhammer universe that is far more detailed than White Dwarf panels. Plus Black Library is infact part of the Games Workshop group, directly linked to the main company, hence why some of the authors you see in the Codex's write the BL books.

[Legatus]

IA's have been unavailable in store and online for how long now?

Information from one source book are not immediately made invalid at the point where that sourcebook is replaced by a newer book that does not happen to include that bit of information. Easy examples are Codex books. The 3rd Edition Codex Space Marines included a short story about how the White Panthers conquered a planet. No other Codex since then has reprinted that story, but we can still refer to it as an example of the White Panthers' actions. If the next Codex does not include the Iron Hands story about Contqual, we can still refer back to this one as one of their engagements.

Older material is only invalidated when the new legitimate material contradicts it. And as I have tried to point out, Black Library novels do not have the same level of legitimacy by the simple fact that they are not officially released together with the rest of the GW material.

 

 

while the events in the books DIRECTLY relate to fluff GW fabricate and as such can be understood to offer insight into the Warhammer universe that is far more detailed than White Dwarf panels.

Novels are "more detailed" because the author has 300+ pages to fill, while White Dwarf articles and Codex books have severe page limitations. The point is that novels are written with the purpose to entertain those that enjoy the universe, and authors often take creative license in order to create drama or suspense. White Dwarf articles or Codex content on the other hand is written with the specific purpose to inform about the background, thus all content presented this way is to be taken as valid, while the "detailed" novelization can be doubted as creative license and not being intended to inform.

 

 

Plus Black Library is infact part of the Games Workshop group, directly linked to the main company, hence why some of the authors you see in the Codex's write the BL books.

Aside from models or artwork, the people working at GW products are writers. Obviously after writing short stories, rules or background descriptions for a source book they might become interested in writing a novel about the universe they are already familiar with. Gavin Thorpe and Andy Chambers for example have started writing GW novels long aftere having been employed as rules or background writers. Sometimes that can work out (I liked Gavins 13th Legion novels), sometimes it doesn't (*couch*mcneill*couch*).

All I have said above remains true even if the same person was to write for GW Studio source books and Black Library novels alike. There is the point that the novels are intended to entertain, but an important part also remains that the novels are not released to the same audience as the source books.

 

Black Library material is, as far as I can see, only published by Black Library in the UK and US (possibly Australia?), while so far I have found that in france and germany they are translated by a third party publisher that is not related to GW. Some of the other countries may not get translated versions at all, and players over there would have to import them from the UK to be able to read them. They would have to be able to read english obviously. You cannot tell those players, especially those that don't speak english, that the book GW is not releasing for them is more valid for the background than the source book they happened to buy a few years ago in their GW shop but now is OOP.