New Chaos codex

[The 13th Goat]

So essentially what your saying is that the books don't count as credable fluff? I'm sorry, but i'd have to disagree with you on that. GW policy on fluff is that anything published by GW (including BL books) counts. Its a well established flaw that has been complained about before. I also don't consider the authors description of the Word Bearers organisation to be "creative licensing". In fact, i find it far more credable that they still operate as a Legion, given their initial disposition on Chaos and the fact Lorgar was around to form a leadership structure behind him, as oppossed to watching his lads split and do their own thing.

[Legatus]

So essentially what your saying is that the books don't count as credable fluff?

That's pretty much what I am saying, yes.

 

 

GW policy on fluff is that anything published by GW (including BL books) counts.

Did they make an official statement on that? The last I know is that Dan Abnett (BL Author) has stated on a convention that at least the Horus Heresy novels are supposed to be official fluff and overrule all previous accounts of that period. Then later George Man (BL Editor) has stated on an investors conference that the purpose of BL is to tell stories, and that only GW studio material is binding when a new story is written, but not BL material.

 

 

I also don't consider the authors description of the Word Bearers organisation to be "creative licensing". In fact, i find it far more credable that they still operate as a Legion, given their initial disposition on Chaos and the fact Lorgar was around to form a leadership structure behind him, as oppossed to watching his lads split and do their own thing.

I just noticed that I have been wrong on the Word Bearers, after reading through a bot of their Index Astartes again. That happens when one only reads the organisation section.

 

"Unlike many of the other Traitor Legions, the Word Bearers have remained a unified, if loosely organised, Legion."

 

So far I have allways been poinging at the description from the "organisation" section, where the various warbands of the Word Bearers are described, who are all drastically different and organised according to teh whim of their Dark Apostle. It seems I have been wrong the whole time.

[The 13th Goat]

GW policy on fluff is that anything published by GW (including BL books) counts.

Did they make an official statement on that? The last I know is that Dan Abnett (BL Author) has stated on a convention that at least the Horus Heresy novels are supposed to be official fluff and overrule all previous accounts of that period. Then later George Man (BL Editor) has stated on an investors conference that the purpose of BL is to tell stories, and that only GW studio material is binding when a new story is written, but not BL material.

 

And I am wrong on the fluff issues, apparently. My source comes from this and other forum boards like BL's own boards, and genrally what i have been told by others. But if George Man stated otherwise at an investors conferance, then you are clearly in the right here. Although while GW reserve the write to trash the novels when they change the cannon (i.e George Lucas and Star Wars), i still like to think they consider most of the BL books to be at least referancable. But that's just a thought, not an expectation of how it works.

 

I just noticed that I have been wrong on the Word Bearers, after reading through a bot of their Index Astartes again. That happens when one only reads the organisation section.

 

"Unlike many of the other Traitor Legions, the Word Bearers have remained a unified, if loosely organised, Legion."

 

So far I have allways been poinging at the description from the "organisation" section, where the various warbands of the Word Bearers are described, who are all drastically different and organised according to teh whim of their Dark Apostle. It seems I have been wrong the whole time.

 

The books do indicate that the Dark Apostles do have a degree of autonomy, however like how i imagine Abaddon runs the Black Legion, if the Council says jump, they have to say how high, or else risk being destroyed by the other Apostles.

[Legatus]

I am not sure whether either Abnett's or Man's statement can be interpreted as GW's official policy on canon or how much it was just their own interpretation on the matter. I assume GW is going to play it safe and just not comment on the issue. Better to let the fans argue endlessly over it than to disappoint either group.

 

But I have seen assertions by both sides, that it is GW's policy that everyting by BL is canon, and that it is GW's policy that BL never counts as canon. I know of no other official statement on that matter, only about the statements made by Dan Abnett and George Man. If GW actually has made an official statement, maybe I just don't know about it.

[Ashe Darke]

From what I've heard it's all valid but it's all subjective as they are all personal experiences not facts most the time. There's supposed to be a bias in all of it apparently.

 

So you can raise any point and back it up with fluff but it will never be a 100% solid point due to the nature of GWs policy on their material. Although quoting different sources that all prove that point certainly helps.

 

EDIT: The 13th Goat's signature is funny. It talks about grammar and spelling things right yet it's missed an apostrophe in the word 'Don't' :)

[Dammeron]

An "Eye of the Gods" style special rule:

 

- though I don't think it's perfectly implemented, the Eye of the Gods rule that occurs in the current FB Chaos Warrior book is a nice throw back to the days of old when Chaos armies would be constantly afflicted by random mutations and the Chaos Gods would actively intervene in battles with all manner of arcane and apocalyptic jiggery pokery. A more refined version of this would add a nice touch of character to the Chaos Space Marine army list (especially since it can potentially be as detrimental as it is beneficial). It would also be a very nice way of distinguishing Chaos characters from their loyalist counterparts, and also be applied to certain units to demonstrate their status in the warband (e.g. Chosen and Terminators).

 

 

Improved Possessed:

 

- Possessed Chaos Marines have always been a nice but problematic addition to the army list. Their random nature at present makes them rather problematic to field. A simple way of excising this problem would be to remove the random factor and simply allow them to be "upgraded" with a limited number of gifts/rewards depending on what Mark of Chaos they bear. They should also be allowed to be upgraded for a certain points cost to represent "cult equivalent" possessed, e.g. Possessed of Nurgle should have the abilities of Plague Marines, and so on and so forth.

 

Distinct Raptors

 

- I dislike the way the current codex has made Raptors "Chaos Assault Marines." Their background has always marked them out as having distinct abilities and characteristics that are idiosyncratic to their nature. Allowing them access to the "Hit and Run" special rule and the ability to inflict a -1 Ld penalty on any enemy they successfully charge in assault would fix this problem instantly.

[Spacefrisian]

I wonder what happened to the original post idea, it now talks about fluff and not what everyone would like to see in the next dex. Off course their are ideas others dont like but that was not the point of my question.

[Atheist]

I recently made the decision that I will not spend even a penny more on 40k ( even though I had plans to start a new army some time later this year ) until I am satisfied about the money I've already spent on the hobby ( to collect a rather large Iron Warriors Chaos Space Marines army over the years ) . Until a proper codex is delivered to us .

 

I do not have plans to drop the hobby altogether , although I think such a thing can be possible if the next codex is decided to continue with the mutilation of all the nice reasons I got to pick my army ( and sublist , when such a thing actually existed ) , these being the fluff and theme of my army .

 

I am now officially fed up with the current codex .

 

I understand that we will not be seing another codex for many years to come .

 

My frustration over this is intensified with every new - lately - released codex , which ranges from "good" ( which means "imho better than the one I/we got lately" ) to "absolutely brilliant" ( similar explanation only "way , way better" , the current I.G. codex fills this spot , if you gotta know ) .

 

I am not interested in starting a new army because A ) I like best the chaos ( Legions ) theme ( I mean , let's face it , this is the obvious reason I've spent generous ammounts of cash until now ) and B ) I don't believe that when you are served s*** in a restaurant the solution would be ordering something else from the menu . I believe that starting a new army because you don't like what has become of your current ( and favorite ) one is a totally wrong reason . IMHO the right reason to pick an army is to be inspired from its models and theme . I still find myself mesmerised by Chaos ( novels etc ) , so I see no need to start another army ( as my main army , that is - the plans of starting another army were partly fueled by a desire to have a second army to offer to a guest to play ) .

 

So , I've currently took to dig in my closet to find my Squad Leader Game of old , to partly cover my "wargaming needs" from there too .

 

Also , please , do not misinterprete this post as a "cheese " cry for all the newest codices , or the will to have a "stronger" Chaos codex . I happen to think that the current Chaos Codex is bland and boring but actually quite strong . However , its strength is irrelevant compared to the

the mutilation of all the nice reasons I got to pick my army

 

I am a dissatisfied customer .

 

Rant over .

 

P.S. : I hope I'm still in the hobby when the next codex will be released . I sincerely do .

P.P.S : Sorry for the slightly off topic contribution .

[tyrannosaurus]

From what I've heard it's all valid but it's all subjective as they are all personal experiences not facts most the time. There's supposed to be a bias in all of it apparently.

 

So you can raise any point and back it up with fluff but it will never be a 100% solid point due to the nature of GWs policy on their material. Although quoting different sources that all prove that point certainly helps.

 

EDIT: The 13th Goat's signature is funny. It talks about grammar and spelling things right yet it's missed an apostrophe in the word 'Don't' :)

 

There are many spelling mistakes in this thread. Most annoying is the way that 'your' is used. If it is 'you are', then the abbreviation is 'you're' [apostrophe replaces missing letter]. When stating ownership [that is your pie] then an apostrophe is not required.

[Atheist]

Well , not everyone is a native english speaker .

 

:)

 

I usually make mistakes while typing quickly in english , which sometimes I correct later by editing the post , but other times I'm just bored to to do anything about them .

[Ashe Darke]

Yeah, we all make mistakes. I tend to spend ages on my posts correcting stuff, going back and rewording things just after I posted.

 

But doing something like that while preaching about how annoying it is? That's just hilarious.

 

'Incoherent people are like so annoying or whatever, innit'

[David the Despoiler]

I was actually contemplating this with a friend over several days...

 

An idea on how the Codex may be organized;

 

First off, every single model has the special rule "For the Glory of Chaos." Infantry re-roll moral checks, vehicles take -1 to their first damage chart roll of the game.

 

HQ

 

Three choices would be present (not counting special characters). The typical Chaos Warlord, a Sorcerer and the Daemon Prince.

 

Each one of these models has the modern options they have now, 'demonic gifts', mounts, marks, etc, and the unique ability to purchase a "Legion" upgrade. This upgrade affects the entire army (in the same way that Chapter Tactics does Space Marines). The particular Legion has certain restrictions on mark and unit choices (as one would expect). It replaces the "For the Glory of Chaos" special rule with either an upgrade to the statline or a special rule.

 

Now, I am reluctant to dubb every single leader of a Renegade Chapter a Chaos Lord, as Chaos Lords should be figures of power, not just a title any newby can adopt simply because he feels like it. The Chaos Warlord would be the equivalent of a Space Marine captain stats-wise (not considering marks).

 

I'd consider the Warlords of the Legions to be Chaos Lords proper. But, terminology aside!

 

The characters themselves would also benefit from additional special rules from their marks, which ought to be more inbred then just a simple point on or off from the statline!

 

Troops

 

Three troop choices would be present. The Cultists, Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Leggionaires. Cultists would be the good ol' "3s across the table meat shields" we all know and love. The Chaos Space Marines will be the renegades from recently turned chapters. The Chaos Legionnaires (as their name suggests) will be the hard-fighting veterans from the Chaos Legions. The Cultists and Chaos Marines can take marks proper (ie, Khorne +1 attack, Tzeentch +1 to invulns, Nurgle Defensive Grenades and +1 to cover saves, Slaanesh +1 I, etc). The Legionnaires, however when they are marked, will become the Cult troops proper (as such Veterans would surely have dedicated themselves fully to the God of their choosing by now). All Leggionaires will have the basic statline a Khorne Berzerker does now. WS 5, Str 4, T 4, 2 Attacks. The Khorne Berzerkers themselves will have Furious Charge and Preferred Enemy to acknowledge them from the others, not to mention a 3rd attack from the Mark of Khorne proper. The Thousand Sons gain their 4+ invuln and ap3 bolters (yes, and they get grenades). The Plague Marines will be Toughness 5 proper with Feel no Pain. The Noise Marines will continue to fight with their regalia of Sonic Weaponry.

 

The Chosen will be simply dictated by which unit the Character decides to join, as he can choose any unit of Legionnaires as his chosen, giving them one bonus proper to his mark or Legion.

 

It's just a thought, but I think that using this system, one would be able to make either a Renegade Chapter, a Legion, a mix of the two or something else entirely.

[Atheist]

@David the Despoiler , I very much liked your ideas about the troops .

 

It would present us with some very "realistic " ( as we get to see them in novels ) chaos lists , with cultists being one of the essential elements in most Chaos Space Marines Armies .

 

I would like to see some Legion rules for "Legionaire" type troops ( perhaps "doctrine" like abilities - like the ones the I.G. Vets use now , although it should be pointed out that the Vets have a fixed number of models per squad - hence the fixed cost per "Doctrine" ability , methinks )

 

I don't want a return of the "broken" IW lists of old ( which btw even if they returned I think that they wouldn't do much as there would be not many points available for troops , which is important under this edition ) , but I'd love for my IW to be really able to - say- tank hunt ( to show "some" efficiency with heavy weaponry , provided that basilisk-type-artillery is right out and will never come back , I believe this is the consensus at the moment ). I don't even care much about tank hunting either ( it was just an example ) , just for a way to - obviously - differentiate an IW list from a Black Legion list ( as is *not* the case right now ).

 

I wouldn't like my lists be pointed towards "counts as" again .

 

But if there's room for a multitude of Space Marine Variant lists ( both in C:SM and the 5 to 6 - if you are willing to count the Sisters too - variant codices ) , I can't really see a reason behind the decision all Chaos Space Marine lists being a "Chaos Carnival"/'All Stars" lists .

 

Hell , the Horus Heresy Legion books sell a lot these days , people like the Traitor Legions ( at the moment , the books mainly revolve around them ) , or so it seems .

 

Frankly , in the light of the last codices , I'd expect a damn good codex .

[David the Despoiler]

Well, that was what my friend and I were also discussing. What the Legion upgrade would bring to the units.

 

We were thinking that Iron Warriors, since that is clearly the Legion you're thinking about, would add an extra AP to all weapons and plus one on the vehicle pen, to show their proficiency and skill with ranged weaponry! I imagine this may result in some ridiculous things (ap3 Reaper Autocannons, AP 2 battle cannons, etc) but it's just a thought we were rolling around.

 

For the World Eaters, we came to a general consensus that Fleet and "Overcharged Rhinos" (hint, hint, BAs) would do the trick.

 

For the Alpha Legion, the only logical choice was either outflank (like the White Scars) or infiltrate as a whole.

 

For the Death Guard, the idea rolling about in our minds was to make the extra "toughness" granted at the moment a solid addon, so troops really would be toughness 5 and -1 on all Vehicle damage chart rolls.

 

For the Night Lords, the idea was to give them all Acute Senses and make Raptors troops. The Raptors themselves also deserve a makeover. What we were thinking is that the Raptors should all be Legionnaires basically. Capitalizing on their use of Vox casters would thus result in a 6" "Pinning" aura. Any enemy unit within 6" of a member of the Raptors squad must take a pinning test at the end of the Chaos shooting phase (the Raptors may either do this along with running, but may not shoot either way). And then bring Daemonic Visage back, -1 Ld to all enemies in combat with them and an extra -1 Ld if they're outnumbered by the Raptors.

 

The Thousand Sons were a tricky Legion. Their AP3 bolters were a must to keep, and this would extent to Rubric Terminators and Legionnaires. Universal "Fearless" was a must, once again, for all except the Cultists and the Chaos Space Marines. I don't see how Chaos Space Marines that just recently joined the Legion of the Sorcerers were turned to dust on purpose, so I don't think they would have any such difficulty. The Thousand Sons themselves, as a unit, have a 4+ invuln, special weapons (with sorcerous upgrades, depending on the weapon), Frag and Krak grenades ( :P ) but no Pistols+CC weapons. I'd change "The Sorcerer Commands" to this; You can choose whether to use Slow and Purposeful or move at normal speed, thus representing the Sorcerer rushing his automatons into position. The special weapons would be upgraded, depending on the weapon. The flamer would be upgraded so that its flames eat corrosively at an opponent. After the weapon is fired, any model hit by the template but not killed will take another str 3, ap6 hit in the next friendly shooting phase. The flames go out after this. The plasma guns ignore overheat (how are you going to cook sand alive? turn it to glass?). The meltagun's range is increased by 2 inches (its "Melta" range increased by 1"). Vehicle wise, I think that a 6+ Invuln to show their sorcerous blessings will do. The Thousand Sons that are under the actual Legion will gain an extra invuln point, making them essentially Legion of the Damned.

 

The Black Legion would not be the norm. It would also be a Legion upgrade. In order to show their tactical capabilities and how well they work together, the Black Legionnaires may field any combination of the cult troops (although I'm sure some rules to represent their animosity for each other would be made) and mark units/vehicles at whim (however, units still can't join vehicles with different marks). Whichever unit the character leading the Warband joins (as in, dedicated as his retinue) may gain one of the following USR; Infiltrate, Scout, Tank Hunters (only for one turn), Relentless (only for one turn).

 

However, the two Legions that had us both stumped were the Word Bearers and Emperor's Children. Being fearless is already present throughout the army (all of the cult troops, the possessed, Chaos Lords, Daemon Princes, etc, etc) and this is one of the main parts of being a part of one of these Legions, either being far too ecstatic to know fear or far too devoted to care.

 

We were tempted to put an emphasis on the Possessed for the Word Bearers, but we were unsure. So any insight into this would be helpful! For the Emperor's Children, perhaps omni-present sonic weaponry (sort of like the upgrades made by Vulcan)?

[Kay]

Make them look like if they really were 10k years vets by adding something else than just +1ld. Vet skills is ace. They make CSM better but more expensive as well

 

Bring back legions/cults

 

Make fluff something viable to play with, and stick to what you write when designing codecii, E.G i HATE foolishly mixed armies like, 2 slaneshii DPs commanding a berzrks army. Slaanesh and khorne dont play together, they kill each other!

 

I dont ask for any special rules, i ask nothing but one thing

 

STICK TO THE FLUFF YOU WRITE, OR DONT WRITE IT AT ALL