God Squad Complex

[brotherkaelen]

I've been toying with the idea of building a unit...

 

9 WG with frost weapons with Ragnar Blackmane in a land raider to be exact. The rest of the list will be mechanized and will feature at least three grey hunter packs (10 man with 2 MG). The remainder of the 1500 list will probably feature longfangs or vindicators, with additional units being chosen by points allotment.

 

So far what I have is:

 

Pro - can kill 20 man ork boy unit with medic on the charge more than half the time (all of them)

can kill up to 10 man knob squad reliably on the charge

can knock out TH and SS terminators reliably (five man unit)

 

Con - holy cr** its expensive, we're talking a 620 point unit even if you don't count the land raider

 

I generally avoid god-squad'ing, but for some reason I kind of want to with this army. I think Ragnar's aability to give furious charge to units within range could be really fun for combined assaults with the WG and GH's.

 

So what do people think? Worth it to utterly decimate stuff in h2h or will the unit's cost be too crippling? Also, does anyone else have a bashy unit they would like to recommend that may be cheaper but still does the trick?

 

(also, in before WG terminators, the 5 man limit limits their damage output too much in a LR)

[Ominous Anonymous]

Experiment with it. I'd actually prefer a Thunderwolf Deathstar if only because a Land Raider can be stopped from a single shot and immobilized. Either way, such a powerful unit makes it hard for the enemy to ignore, so if he chooses to focus on it or the rest of your army, punish him accordingly. :lol:

[Thorgad]

This is ridiculously expensive, and though it has the potential to kick some serious butt, it'll leave the rest of your army completely crippled. Doing up just a mock-up army list, I can fit in Ragnar and 8 WG buddies in TDA with frostblades in a crusader, two bare-bone GH squads in rhinoes and two longfang squads with missilelaunchers in 1500 points. That's not a good army.

 

I like how we have the ability to equip our wolfguards with stuff like frostblades and other sweet wargear, but doing it like this is just not feasible. We have the option, but we pay through the nose for it.

[Spacefrisian]

I would take 8 in pa with Ragnar and Ulrik in a Landraider. Leaves room for 3 Greyhunter units tooled up in Rhino for less than 1700 points.

[Ominous Anonymous]

This is ridiculously expensive, and though it has the potential to kick some serious butt, it'll leave the rest of your army completely crippled. Doing up just a mock-up army list, I can fit in Ragnar and 8 WG buddies in TDA with frostblades in a crusader, two bare-bone GH squads in rhinoes and two longfang squads with missilelaunchers in 1500 points. That's not a good army.

 

I like how we have the ability to equip our wolfguards with stuff like frostblades and other sweet wargear, but doing it like this is just not feasible. We have the option, but we pay through the nose for it.

 

Problem: Nobody takes a Deathstar at that points limit anyways. Add in 350-500 points, and that's another Grey Hunter squad and Wolf Priest with some leftover.

[Thorgad]

This is ridiculously expensive, and though it has the potential to kick some serious butt, it'll leave the rest of your army completely crippled. Doing up just a mock-up army list, I can fit in Ragnar and 8 WG buddies in TDA with frostblades in a crusader, two bare-bone GH squads in rhinoes and two longfang squads with missilelaunchers in 1500 points. That's not a good army.

 

I like how we have the ability to equip our wolfguards with stuff like frostblades and other sweet wargear, but doing it like this is just not feasible. We have the option, but we pay through the nose for it.

 

Problem: Nobody takes a Deathstar at that points limit anyways. Add in 350-500 points, and that's another Grey Hunter squad and Wolf Priest with some leftover.

 

While that's true enough, the OP was the one who mentioned the 1500 points, not me :sweat:

Besides, another Grey Hunter Squad and a Wolf Priest probably won't make this work either. Bearing in mind that adding another 9-man GH squad in a Rhino with an attached Wolfpriest will bump you to 1754 points, and you're still fielding only a single Landraider, three Rhinos and 10 missile launchers in the back field somewhere.

If you're playing 1750, you're spending around 50% of your points on Ragnar and buddies alone. Though they would be awesome to convert and paint, I don't think they'd be worth their cost.

[brotherkaelen]

Thanks for the replies guys!

 

The reason for the 1500 limit is mostly because I like to make "base lists" that represent the core of my force, and then I add on peripheral units as I see fit. My standard games generally run somewhere around 2k.

 

I find it interesting that you guys aren't considering death stars relevant at 1500 points though, I see that quite a bit. Most of my lists run balanced and reactionary, but I have definitely had my forces destroyed by units that simply outfight marines.

 

I think that that's the reason a unit like this appeals to me. There is a pretty definite limit on what you can do by massed fire with a 4+ cover being so easy to get, and marines being so expensive for the shots.

[Ominous Anonymous]

They can be relevant, but a real drag on your points limit as the previous poster mentioned. If you had to field it, I'd actually recommend putting the squad in a drop pod instead.

[Bearboy]

Take Ragnars 2 wolf buddies as extra wounds and swap out some of the frost blades for regular power weapons, hammers or leave a bare bones wolf gaurd or two if your worried about points.

 

Although I have on one occasion played Rag's, his 2 wolves and 5 wolfgaurd with plasma pistols and Frostblades just to butcher my mates 10 man squad of Assault termies and attached libraian and Chaplain B)

[Vassakov]

Problem is, unless you load up on seriously expensive Storm Shields, or give them all TDA your unit is painfully exposed to any substantial low AP firepower - Leman Russes, Obliterator Plasma Cannons, a well geared DS from just about any plasma tooled unit, Demo cannons, most Eldar fire... they'll take heavy losses very fast, especially once out of the Crusader.

 

The other thing to have in mind is Walkers - an Ironclad or Soul Grinder, or even an Ork Deff Dread will play havoc with this unit, especially if you lack meltabombs. A couple of Fists or Hammers will stand you in good stead.

 

Of course, I would advise against this in all but the largest of games. Simple truth is that the Grey Hunter is one of your best friends. Deathstars, especially ones without Wound Allocation Screwery and Invunerable Saves (and preferably FNP too) are simply a points sink, and an inefficient one at that.

[Wildfire]

Death Stars don't really work in 40k. I'd recommend against it.

[Grey Mage]

I agree with with Vass and Wildfire... nova units are to easy to counter by an intellegent general. If your having problems with enemies that "simply outfight" space wolves, then you need to increase the durability of your army, not the firepower.

 

So instead of a giant WG squad... take 40 GHs in Rhinos. Four times as many wounds, and alot more armor on the field.

 

Seriously, I wouldnt touch that squad with a 10 foot pole, and if I was playing you Id just shoot the crap out of it, or feed you a small squad to let you assault and then shoot the crap out of it.

 

Edit- For the record, 40 GHs, with say half rapid firing and half firing at 24" with 4 Meltaguns and 4 Plasmarifles ends up killing alot more than your BPs + Frostblades vs any ork or eldar unit I can name, sept Wraithlords... and there they are close.

[ORKILL]

I have been playing with a variation of this squad: Ragnar+ 6x WG( 4x power weapon and combi-melta, 2x power fist and combi-flamer) in a Rhino. I also keep them near Logan for the +1 attack and moral reroll. This squad kills anything it touches. I have taken out Lysander and 6 Termies 3 times and the other night I killed a Trygon prime, he did kill Ragnar though. Expensive yes, but really alot of fun.

[Quillen]

Actually I have been running it for 2 months now, and it works really well.

 

I am running Ragnar in a Crusader with a Wolf Priest and 10 Wolf Gaurd. So for they have won all but one game. I almost pulled off a win but a Thunder Wolf Cav my friend was running caught them in the open. With write up of Ferocious charge clearified they would have won that fight too. Instead they all died except for one Wolf Gaurd, and the game was a draw.

 

You have to think it through. Most lists at 1750 have about 45-60 models. You will only have about 43. If you do it right thou, you will kill 2 or 3 squads right off. And even on the way out Ragnar will win you the game. In my Games he Died 4 out of 5 times. So a 20% chance of surviving. But his squad killed half the other army, making it easy for the 3 Grey Hunter packs and Long Fangs to clean house. It's all in how you play.

 

A Land Raider can get them there. It will survive most things. People always under estimate them. MIssile Launcher will always just about bounce. It takes a melta or a Las Cannon to have a chance and they have a bad chance. If it's a melta you in melee range and the LR did it's job. It bought your Grey Hunters a couple of turns and the death squad inside it are in range to charge. Woot it's going to be a win.

 

 

Sence GW is heading back into Heroe hammer, and you must confess that is where we are heading, then why not tool out a heroe in a sweet ride and let him roll deeep with his homies. lol

 

 

You do realise a tricked out WG squad is only a little bit more expensive the a tricked out Grey Hunter pack. The Expensive part is Ragnar and the Crusader. And Ragnar is only about70-40 points more on a normal wolf lord depending on how you build him. So in effect it will not really hurt you list. Just put alot of points in one spot a spot which is hard to kill by most lists.

[Grey Mage]

Negatory... I cant see that. A WG with a Frostblade is more than twice the points of a standard GHs share of a squad.

 

GH- about 22pts when you average in the costs of a rhino and squad equipment

WG- Considering the cost a LR in there, is about 62pts... or 40pts in a rhino.

 

And lastly, since when is 10 PA bodies hard for enemy lists to kill?

[Emperor's Scourge]

Notice Quillen didn't say he was running pure frostbladers...

[Grey Mage]

Hrmm... fair enough, if he was running mostly nake WG it does drop the price considerable, good catch ES.

[Natanael]

I've been thinking about this too, as I just built and started painting my Ragnar. Taking WGs with just BP/CCW seems like a good deal to me, bth. Add in just a few FB/PW/PF and you are set on a squad that is really cheap for its killyness. Gonna try that out this week I think.

[ORKILL]

Negatory... I cant see that. A WG with a Frostblade is more than twice the points of a standard GHs share of a squad.

 

GH- about 22pts when you average in the costs of a rhino and squad equipment

WG- Considering the cost a LR in there, is about 62pts... or 40pts in a rhino.

 

And lastly, since when is 10 PA bodies hard for enemy lists to kill?

 

 

They aren't. However, if you kill your opponent first, they do have a hard time killing you. :P

[brotherkaelen]

Negatory... I cant see that. A WG with a Frostblade is more than twice the points of a standard GHs share of a squad.

 

GH- about 22pts when you average in the costs of a rhino and squad equipment

WG- Considering the cost a LR in there, is about 62pts... or 40pts in a rhino.

 

And lastly, since when is 10 PA bodies hard for enemy lists to kill?

 

 

They aren't. However, if you kill your opponent first, they do have a hard time killing you. :lol:

 

 

That's kind of the idea I was going for. The thing that impresses me about ragnar is how he confers furious charge more so than the attacks (even though they are awesome).

 

Also, because of this thread, I took a look at running the WG squad at 8 men and giving them power weapons instead of frost blades. Because of FC they would still attack at S5 so this could work pretty well. This also knocks more than 100 points off of the unit and brings them back down to a reasonable range.

[Logain the Ranger]

I have been playing with a variation of this squad: Ragnar+ 6x WG( 4x power weapon and combi-melta, 2x power fist and combi-flamer) in a Rhino. I also keep them near Logan for the +1 attack and moral reroll. This squad kills anything it touches. I have taken out Lysander and 6 Termies 3 times and the other night I killed a Trygon prime, he did kill Ragnar though. Expensive yes, but really alot of fun.

I too run Ragnarn a Rune Priest, and WG with 3 Frost blades 2 fists in a Rhino.

 

I agree with with Vass and Wildfire... nova units are to easy to counter by an intellegent general. If your having problems with enemies that "simply outfight" space wolves, then you need to increase the durability of your army, not the firepower.

 

So instead of a giant WG squad... take 40 GHs in Rhinos. Four times as many wounds, and alot more armor on the field.

 

Seriously, I wouldnt touch that squad with a 10 foot pole, and if I was playing you Id just shoot the crap out of it, or feed you a small squad to let you assault and then shoot the crap out of it.

 

Edit- For the record, 40 GHs, with say half rapid firing and half firing at 24" with 4 Meltaguns and 4 Plasmarifles ends up killing alot more than your BPs + Frostblades vs any ork or eldar unit I can name, sept Wraithlords... and there they are close.

 

You speak as if the person running the super unit does not know what they are doing. Yes one Vindicator shot can screw up your day if you let them. But a good player running Ragnar should know how to counter stuff like that and not be lulled into trap assaults.

 

I run Ragnar in a Rhino, I also have two Rhinos with Grey Hunters who go up with him. Besides that I run one drop pod with a GH to buy them the time they need to get across the field.

[Grey Mage]

You speak as if the person running the super unit does not know what they are doing. Yes one Vindicator shot can screw up your day if you let them. But a good player running Ragnar should know how to counter stuff like that and not be lulled into trap assaults.

 

I run Ragnar in a Rhino, I also have two Rhinos with Grey Hunters who go up with him. Besides that I run one drop pod with a GH to buy them the time they need to get across the field.

No, Its nothing to do with knowing what theyre doing tactically or not. Its the simple fact that theyre right- that many frostblade attacks will wipe just about anything in the game out in one go. Leaving you open to ALOT of shooting, wtih the points the enemy didnt use in a hammer unit.

 

Leaving your squad open to a tau battle line, or hell even another wolf players shooting is a bad idea, and theres pretty much no way to NOT do that with this unit, save sheer dumb luck.

[brotherkaelen]

also another quick note: I run 30 GH's as a base in any list complete with rhino's. When I say that I'm having problems with units that outfight marines its not because of a lack of bodies on the field... its because certain armies are designed to be able to get through massed bolter fire.

 

Tyranids and orks would not function if shooting were sufficient to counter them alone. Their entire strategy is to overwhelm a firing line, and my main problem with running assault units is that they cost quite a few points that you lose when you go into combat. I personally feel that any assault unit that does not strike at I5 or carry SS is a waste, because you will end up losing men in every combat round. Marines don't have the numbers to pull that off.

[Grey Mage]

See, and I consider my GHs Assault Squads, and my WG are just Myrmidons. Still, if your running 30 GHs base then go for it... see how it goes.

 

Between Bolters, Whirlwinds, Long Fangs, and Counter-attack Orks have never given me a problem... and nidz have been slim pickings since 5th edition hit. Well see how they do with their fancy new codex. *starts sharpening a long knife*.

[Firedrake28]

Know what'd work almost as well and not cost nearly as many points?

 

Ragnar, a Wolf Priest and a bunch of Blood Claws with a Wolf Guard with Fist in a Land Raider Crusader. Give one Blood Claw a power weapon and go nuts. With re-rolls to hit the target of your choice, +2 Attacks for each Blood Claw (and +D3 for Ragnar himself, the Wolf Priest and the Wolf Guard) plus Furious Charge, you'd annihilate almost anything you hit.

 

Let's see.

 

A minimum of 6 S6 I6 Attacks that ignore armor from Ragnar.

 

A minimum of 4 S5 I5 attacks that ignore armor from the Wolf Priest.

 

A minimum of 44 S5 I5 attacks from the unupgraded Blood Claws.

 

A minimum of 4 S5 I5 attacks that ignore armor from the power weapon armed Blood Claw.

 

A minimum of 3 S8 I1 attacks that ignore armor from the Wolf Guard.

 

All of these re-rolling misses is going to equal one very, very dead unit. I don't care what it is, other than maybe a C'tan, gigantic unit of Orks with 'Eavy Armor and Feel No Pain, or a 50 man unit of Conscripts with a Lord Commissar in the unit to stop them from breaking. Even Assault Terminators are going to fall under the weight of that many attacks.