Melta madneess

[Natanael]

I've been looking around theise forums for a while, and I notice how ppl tend to always take or recommend meltaguns in GH squads. I understand the whole "can kill infantry and tanks"-thing, but I just can't bring myself to include that many in my army. In my book meltas are made for Wolf Scouts and almost nothing else. I have a single grey hunter w/ melta, and 6 w/ plasma guns, and they never seem to fail me. In my book SW is much more of a rapid fire-counter-attack-force than the main assaulty thing the melta makes them. We can, after all, give the enemy 5 plasma shots and 14 bolter shots and still take the charge very well(that is 10 GH 2x PG, 1x PP within 12").

 

So, brothers, what is the main thing that makes everyone take meltas instead of plasmas? There are other things that kill tanks much better, after all.

 

- Natanael

[Wildfire]

Actually, there's nothing that kills tanks better. Not even railguns. With 8 +2d6 armor pen at short range, and +1 on the damage chart, they're the ultimate in anti-vehicle weaponry. Their only drawback is their short range, and since wolves want to be in your opponent's face anyways that's not really all that much of a drawback.

[plaguewolf]

I used to have a pure deathguard army so anti tank weapons was a must in every squad, and i killed more of my own plaguemarines with the plasma gun then the enemy. so the meltagun it is for my wolves too. its reliable, versatile, cheap and deadly.

I have droppod army so the range are not always a problem. the biggest downside is that you dont get it in the spacewolf pack box.

[Natanael]

I can see the points of going meltas with a pod army, were you have little or no other AT. But in general, with mech or drop pods with some ground support, I think the plasma gun is better in almost every situation. The only situation were the meltagun is a lot better in within 6" of an enemy tank(and you still waste the bolters of the rest of the squad), and if you're that close your enemy is already doomed or you're gonna get shot to hell. I'd rather have preds, scouts, long fangs or speeders to do the tank killing so my GHs can do what they do best = kill rank-and-file troopers.

 

And the overheat should not be such an issue. I mean, it's 1 in 6 on every dice, and efter that you have a 1 in 3 chance of surviving anyway. Sure, sometimes you just die (had full GH pack shooting a combat squad. alla my guys overheated and died, 2x PG, 1xPP, and he made all his cover saves.).

[Evilmerlin]

Why is it the favoured special weapon? Cheap and deadly. Short range isn't an issue since that's where the Wolves operate. The most important thing is that it gives every squad a potent anti tank weapon. Infantry we can handle with the multitude of attacks each Grey Hunter/Blood Claw can generate, tanks is a different story.

[ChainsawDR]

you find yourself up against a transport. if you cant get the troops out of it and assault them, then the next turn they are going to fire on you, whittle down your numbers and then charge you.

 

I prefer knowing that my squad has the best possible chance of taking out the transport. I still have all of the "better options" that you mentioned, and if they crack open the transport then I'm still getting a melta ap1 shot on the troops, and miss out on a maximum of one ap2 shot that could have killed my own marine - I say maximum because why would I want to Rapid fire a plasma gun and my units bolters when it stops my uber assaulty Grey Hunters from charging them? Against tac marines thats 3 attacks against their 1, 4 if you include the BoltP firing beforehand - this is 3 more kill chances for my Grey Hunters, compared to two kill chances if I'd rapid fired them - makes sense to me but if I'm wrong I'd appreciate the mathhammer so I can learn.

 

personally I take a combi melta on my WG pack leader as well as a melta in the pack so I know that nuts getting cracked open.

[archonbrujah]

redundancy for me. I never seem to be able to count on my Long Fangs popping tanks, prefer to be moving forward towardsa an assault with my Troops anyways, so adding a free melta to my GH and BC packs seems like a good idea.

 

the +1 damage result is huge for me, since I have a tendency to roll poorly, any modifier moving an immobilized tank to a dead tank is pure bonus.

 

Archonbrujah

[Decoy]

No such things as too few Meltaguns, for all the reasons above, and for the added reason that turning a person or a tank to atoms just makes me giggle.

[Natanael]

I prefer knowing that my squad has the best possible chance of taking out the transport. I still have all of the "better options" that you mentioned, and if they crack open the transport then I'm still getting a melta ap1 shot on the troops, and miss out on a maximum of one ap2 shot that could have killed my own marine - I say maximum because why would I want to Rapid fire a plasma gun and my units bolters when it stops my uber assaulty Grey Hunters from charging them? Against tac marines thats 3 attacks against their 1, 4 if you include the BoltP firing beforehand - this is 3 more kill chances for my Grey Hunters, compared to two kill chances if I'd rapid fired them - makes sense to me but if I'm wrong I'd appreciate the mathhammer so I can learn.

 

personally I take a combi melta on my WG pack leader as well as a melta in the pack so I know that nuts getting cracked open.

 

What is your überassaulty GHs equip? 'Cause maybe it is just me, but I dont have any PW, WS or WG in my squads, since we play with comp scores in all tournaments and I tend to makes armies that way. All of the above mentioned gives a penalty for using. And since my GHs is not that assaulty (10 G, 2x PG, PP, MotW) i find that the bolter/plasma fire + counter charge gives me more killing power.

 

you find yourself up against a transport. if you cant get the troops out of it and assault them, then the next turn they are going to fire on you, whittle down your numbers and then charge you.

 

Maybe I just play very differently from you guys, 'cause I never seem to have problems like this. Cant acctually think of a single game since the new dex were I have had this problem. Maybe thats why I'm running plasma :lol: Local metagame does, when I think about it, not include a lot of mech armies, tbh. We got the Imp Fist player, and some semi-mech SM, bot otherwise mostly xenos (tyranids, orks, eldar & tau, in order of popularity).

[the jeske]

Local metagame does, when I think about it, not include a lot of mech armies, tbh.

well I dont know what kind of points systems you guys use , but I dont think anyone outside of your playgroup can help you m8 , because for everyone else around the world mecha builds are the dominant form of lists for every codex[the only dexs that dont go mecha are those that cant].

the norm for GH squads is half or 2/3 of 2 melta fist motw or 1 melta motw wg with fist +combi, gh with power weapon. the units are armed like this to open up transports down skimer squadrons and still be able to hurt meq/teq and mc. playing a set up like you use would mean that any form of hth IC or counter unit with an IC or dual princes /MC or even walkers would mean death in most cases for the GH unit [or tarpiting if the gh are lucky]. a full plasma load out army would also have huge problems with any LR rush build as it would be able to hurt it at all . there is also a lot of small things like a melta gun instant deaths nob biker or a nids or warrior or meq IC while a plasma just does 1 wound.

[ChainsawDR]

What is your überassaulty GHs equip?

 

I run my GH's as 9 GH with MG, PW, Rhino, WG with PF with CombiM - giving 3 PF and 3 PW attacks on both the charge and offense. I call it "uber" because thats uber compared to a standard tac marine thats only going to get 1 attack on the defense.

 

when I think about it, not include a lot of mech armies, tbh

 

Yep, if you don't regularly play against mech, and therefore have a need for ap1, then I can understand your thinking. I prefer to run with "all comer" lists that can cope with mech and non-mech, and for me melta guns do that.

 

Each to his own though, if you run plasma and are winning games then good on you.

 

cheers

 

ChainsawDR

 

beat me to it the jeske, fair point well made.

[Natanael]

Yeh, I know that most ppl face a lot of mech, but I just cant seem to find that many in my local shop. At least never had a problem with it. Maybe 'cause I'm the most mech-y player around :) A friend of mine just got hold of 9 vehicles tough, for his SW, så maybe should start worrying.

 

Also, this is the comp system we're using. The "offical" swedish one, who punishes all mech players and all "übersquads"(at least they punish spec wpns most of the time). Just download the file in the first post. We've taken a lot of fire for this system, and I don't think it is very good. Bu that's what we play so I have to do it :P

[Yeti]

I can't comment on the local game environment, but here are a few more thoughts about why meltaguns are useful. (I don't say better, they each have their own role.

 

Sometimes it's better to charge than take the charge. Denying you're opponent the +1 attack charge bonus aside, any unit likely to assault you probably has an ace up it's sleeve. Wether it's furious charge, special weapons or something else, denying them that advantage is usually worth the round of rapid fire. The rest of the time ... you're probably better off charging them. No point exchanging bolter fire with some tac marines ... put them out of their misery! :)

 

The other advantage that the melta has is that it's S8. That'll instakill a lot of things. I was happy to have a melta yesterday 'cause I got to instakill a GK termi HQ instead of assaulting him. I'd have won the assault anyway, but this way, I didn't have to disembark from my rhino, didn't take any losses, didn't risk my Wolf Priest and didn't have to risk scattering ordnance fire to kill him.

[lordsloth]

Melta's

- Kill vehicles

- Kill infantry

- Allow assault afterwards (pop transport, assault content)

- Never blow up in your face

- Can instadeath up to t4 (which can be a big deal)

- Are fairly cheap

 

That isnt to say plasma isnt great and definately finds use (especially on homebase babysitting grey hunters or on the relentless wolfguard terminators) but I wouldnt feel safe without a solid helping of meltas.

[Natanael]

You guys almost got me convinced to add more meltas. Gonna see what I can do about that, try it in a few games and then we'll see. I still love my plasma gun tough :cuss

[StormWarriors2]

I have a ton of Melta Weapons in my army. But compared to Plasma and Anything with the word bolter in it i have 2x the amount of bolters than melta.

 

I see melta weapons as the best weapons in the game. But not as good as the old Battle Cannon.

 

But ever since i'm usually in massive firefights in which my oppenent is just sitting there shooting me i pick lascannons over melta weapons.

[Natanael]

Yeah, i usually run a lot of TLLC, so I dont really need the melta. When the enemy is close I fire plasma and let the last enemy guys run away or charge me. They die anyway. But as I said; I'm gonna try some melta out. Maybe it is better then I think it is.

[Niiai]

while I agree that the melta guns is very good, I also like the other weapons.

 

With the axepted risk of melting the model with a plasma canon the 2 shots from a rapid fire plasma cannon or 1 from 24" away is very sick. Espesialy mid ranged unitt (terminators and tyranid warriors) would fear a plasma gun a lott more then a melta. I feel that the plasmagun inly realy justefies if you take 2 of it an spam all the shots you can get. Usualy defensivly or with a first turn drop pod near some good cover.

 

The flamer is good, and it can get a lott of hits! I think that is is good in a small aggressive group ether on foot or in a razorback so that you can hunt down other smaller groups in a paper takes paper kind of way.

 

The meltagunn is very good but if you can get decent AT from otherplaces then erhaps you do not need it. Against a no tank army I think all the meltaguns would be pretty useless.

[Grey Mage]

Meltaguns are good, if theres not much mech in the area then plasma is definitely better, but meltaguns arent bad.

 

If your always on the assault, Meltaguns have the advantage of being able to fire at 12" and assault like a bolt pistol. Bolters and Plasmarifles sync better on the Long Range/Rapid fire end.

 

But since theres few transports in your area you might want to try the Flamer+Meltagun combo... also a short range assault oriented build, with good generalist abilities.

[Niiai]

Meltaguns are good, if theres not much mech in the area then plasma is definitely better, but meltaguns arent bad.

 

If your always on the assault, Meltaguns have the advantage of being able to fire at 12" and assault like a bolt pistol. Bolters and Plasmarifles sync better on the Long Range/Rapid fire end.

 

But since theres few transports in your area you might want to try the Flamer+Meltagun combo... also a short range assault oriented build, with good generalist abilities.

 

A specialised unit gets the job done better. 2x meltas will take out a tank, 1x will not. You can field Grey Mage unit with two flamers + 1 meltagun though. The flamer will shine when it shines, 2 is perhaps not neded after the first one hits. The meltagunn will frighten scared oponents who will be sceptical about getting there transports close to it and will suthc work as a threat. The same as the wolf scouts witch prevents you from hugging the walls.

[Grey Mage]

Yeah, of course a second meltagun will get the job done more often... you get twice the shots. Still, its a flexable build if you dont know what your going to be up against, or if you need to save a few points.

 

Personally I prefer 2 of the same special weapon and a SCCW to keep it cheap, but I know it doesnt work for everyone.

[plaguewolf]

Yeh, I know that most ppl face a lot of mech, but I just cant seem to find that many in my local shop. At least never had a problem with it. Maybe 'cause I'm the most mech-y player around ;) A friend of mine just got hold of 9 vehicles tough, for his SW, så maybe should start worrying.

 

Also, this is the comp system we're using. The "offical" swedish one, who punishes all mech players and all "übersquads"(at least they punish spec wpns most of the time). Just download the file in the first post. We've taken a lot of fire for this system, and I don't think it is very good. Bu that's what we play so I have to do it ;)

 

vart har du comp listan? den skulle ja vilja se.. ja hitta en sådan förut men kommer inte ihåg vart.

 

vart bor/spelar du?

 

 

and for you who dont seak swedish i just asking for the comp list :D

[c-wrex]

I'd also like to see this list that punishes players for taking certain gear and vehicles.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I'd also like to see this list that punishes players for taking certain gear and vehicles.

 

 

i am very sick and tired of seing imperial guard armies without infantry platoons in them...maybe a cap on the amount of veteran units you can take, say 1-2 per platoon?

 

WLK

[c-wrex]

I'd also like to see this list that punishes players for taking certain gear and vehicles.

 

 

i am very sick and tired of seing imperial guard armies without infantry platoons in them...maybe a cap on the amount of veteran units you can take, say 1-2 per platoon?

 

WLK

 

I think you are saying two things:

 

1. Some amount of army list regulation is necessary to preserve army 'intent' (as in the spirit of the army it is supposed to represent. ie, Imperial Guard is about huge piles of men with lasguns and tanks, orks are about tons o' boyz, etc)

2. It is increasingly tiresome to see certain units again and again on the table top, and thus some 'encouragement' is required to keep armies diverse and fresh.

 

Am I right in these two assertions? If no, could you clarify what you mean?