Swiftclaw Setup...

[ChainsawDR]

Hi all,

 

I've not had a massive amount of success with my expensive Skyclaw unit:

 

Wolf Priest with Combi-M & Jump Pack…

10x Skyclaws with PF, Flamer & MotW

 

Altogether its 360pts (expensive) and has never earnt its points back in the 4 games I've played them - I've used cover etc but because they don't have a transport shield (and everything else in my army does) they normally get targeted and killed.

 

Therefore I'm looking to swap them for a Swiftclaw pack (very excited about using bikes again - I used to love Attack Bikes in the old dex). Not only are they relentless, meaning I can rapid fire and assault, but they are also twin linked (making up for the BS3). With the HB as well, I think I'm going to thin my target better with Swiftclaws during shooting, get into combat faster, get more bodies into combat thanks to turbo 3+ inv. save, and lose fewer wounds in combat thanks to T5, and one less body thanks to the Attack Bikes extra wound.

 

Don't know why I didn't think of doing this before!!!

 

So far I'm looking at the following two setups that come in on budget:

 

WL

Bike

Frost Axe

Combi-M

5 Swiftclaws

Attack Bike HB

Flamer

Power Fist

 

or

 

Wolf Priest

Bike

Combi-M

6 Swiftclaws

Attack Bike HB

Flamer

Power Fist

 

I can't decide between the two and would appreciate some advice on what would be best in an "all comers"/tourney list.

 

With the Lord I have 6 S5 Frost Axe attacks at Init 5 and 3 wounds. With the Priest I only hit at Init 4 with 2 wounds and get 4 S4 Power weapon attacks, but benefit from an extra swiftclaw and get to reroll all failed to hit rolls.

 

Which option would you go for?

 

Thanks in advance

 

ChainsawDR

[Sarapham]

I use a WP with my Swifties because I think the abilities of prefered enemy makes up for the lack of killiness compared to the lord. The fact that he is already good for his basic points and also gives fearless seals the deal for me.

[Night Runner]

I'm a great fan of Swiftclaws myself, and I prefer to run with a Wolf priest on bike, but I also prefer two smaller units of bikers, i.e. 3 bikers + AB + Leader (IC or WG).

 

If there is a master of Swiftclaw tactics in the Fang it's Littlbitz. I suggest you read the threads below if you are serious about them before investing. They are not easy to use, since by nature they are a harrassing unit used to keep the enemy off balance, but once you get the hang of them they can be very rewarding to play.

 

Here are the links:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=swiftclaws

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=swiftclaws

[WG Vrox]

I have run swiftclaws a few games and was very happy with the results, the problem is you have to spend alot of points to get a squad that is successful. Though some may not like all the melta, but putting melta bombs on the squad is just to specific in their use and expensive. I found keeping them dynamic and multipurpose was the key.

 

Also make sure to take all wounds that would not get a save first on your lord until he is down to 1 wound to make use of the 3+ save.

 

My squad ended up being such:

 

WL

Runic Armor SS/FB with Melta Bombs: SMB

 

WG

MG/PF :SMB

 

4 Swift Claws

PF/MG

 

Attack Bike

MM

 

Vrox

[ChainsawDR]

Thanks, I think I'm leaning towards...

 

Wolf Priest with SM Bike & Combi-Melta

6x Swiftclaws with 1x Power Fist, 1x Meltagun

1x Attack Bike with HB

 

...as the general feel has been WP rather than WL. By giving the WP a Combi-Melta he only has 3 attacks on the charge rather than 4, but I think I need it to be able to pose a threat to transports (the main damage is going to be done by the Swiftclaws anyway). Meltagun in the pack loses a further attack, but almost guarantees I can crack a transport and be able to assault the troops inside.

 

Let me know if you see any flaws with this. Thanks

 

ChainsawDR

[Vlk]

The bigger the squad, the better it is to get a WP instetad of a WL or a WGBL. In the pack I use, I run 4 Swiftclaws, 1 AB and a WGBL on a bike - according to mathammer, the WGBL is better and adds much more killyness than the WP.

 

To be precise, my setup is:

 

WGBL on a bike with a Frost Axe and Meltabombs

 

4 Swiftclaws with a Power Fist and a Meltagun

 

1 Attack Bike with a Multi-melta

[Vassakov]

Blood Claws of any variety definitely benefit more from a Wolf Priest than anything, as Preferred Enemy goes a long way towards mitigating WS 3. In addition to the Heavy Bolter, a good set up would be something like:

 

5 Swiftclaws, 1 Flamer, 1 Powerfist

Attack Bike with Heavy Bolter

Wolf Guard with Thunder Hammer

Wolf Priest

 

Gives you the flexibility to take on most things, but with these guys make sure you pick manageable targets, at they aren't indestructible by any means.

[ChainsawDR]

@vassakov: is the high cost of the WG worth it though?

 

@vlk: I think I need to look up my mathhammer and get it plugged into an excel doc!

[Vlk]

I just made a quick check assuming this pack runs into a unit of 10 chaos space marines without any upgrades (and assuming the swiftclaws weren't shooting, just to make it simple):

 

a)

The WGBL kills 2.24 CSMs at I5.

Then, 3 unupgraded SCs and the AB have their 17 attacks, killing 1.4 enemies.

The approximately 8 CSMs who survived the WGBL's attack reply with 16 attacks and kill 1.17 SCs.

The PF SC kills 1.5 CSM.

 

5.14 dead CSMs, 1.17 dead SCs, kill to loss ratio - 4.393

 

b (the WGBL is replaced with a Wolf Priest))

The Wolf Priest kills 1.34 enemies.

The SCs and the AB kill 2.1 enemies thanks to the re-rolls.

The 10 CSMs kill 1.46 SCs.

The PF SC kills 2.25 CSMs thanks to the re-rolls.

 

5.69 dead CSMs, 1.46 dead SCs, kill to loss ratio - 3.897

 

 

Sorry if there are any mistakes, I didn't double-check that .)

 

So the WP pack is in fact a little killier while the WGBL pack gets a better kill to loss ratio.

The WP pack would probably be better in longer combats, the WGBL pack is better at "impact" (and that I5 A5 S5 Frost Axe can be invaluable against higher-T models and low AV).

 

I'm going to stick with the WGBL pack. I5 attacks seems far too awesome to me to change it for a couple of re-rolls and I believe I'll kill almost anything I run into with them. I am, however, very inexperienced as a player and I'll have to subdue that biker pack to a couple more tests .)

[ChainsawDR]

thats very interesting and informative, thank you vlk. As you said, the WGBL will be able to take down higher T troops more easily which is a big plus.

 

If you know of one, would you mind posting a link to the mathhammer or posting on how you worked that out. I have a rough idea in my minds eye but I always seem to start using fractions rather than decimals and I don't get it very accurate.

 

I'd like to test it out myself with different amounts of troops and also consider a Wolf Lord, maybe even using a Thunderhammer rather than a Frost to see the effects - actually scrap this I don't want the HQ singled out and killed before he can hit.

 

Thanks again vlk.

[Grey Mage]

Id say keep it cheap and simple- powerfist, and maybe a flamer. Wolf Priest with a JP for a leash, and a Wolf Tail Talisman for luck.

 

*shrugs* I do have a pair of WGBLs with Jumppacks, and they do cool air raids, but for Skyclaws I prefer the simplicity of a priest.

 

For Swiftclaws, A priest I find is a good match... but really any leader will do. Ive been trying out Rune Priests with Stormcaller to cover my DP assault, so far its working pretty well.

[Vlk]

No problem, but again, I hope there aren't any embarassing mistakes to be found. If you see one, ignore it and praise my good will :D And by the way, I round all the fractions so it's not ABSOLUTELY accurate.

 

So let's begin with situation a) and the WGBL. The WGBL strikes first with 5 attacks in total. 3 charging Swiftclaws have 4 attacks each. The Attack Bike has 5 attacks. And the last SC has a Power Fist, 3 S8 attacks. The 10 Chaos Space Marines should have 20 attacks all together.

 

1) The WGBL:

 

5 attacks, each hits on 3+ (approximately 67%) => about 3.35 hits.

Those 3.35 hits wound on 3+ (67% again) => about 2.24 wounds. Those wounds ignore armour.

2.24 dead MEQs.

 

2a) The 3 Swiftclaws and the AB:

 

17 attacks, each hits on 4+ (50%) => 8.5 hits.

Those 8.5 hits wound on 4+ (50%) => 4.25 wounds.

The CSMs have 3+ armour saves (so only 33% of those wounds gets through) => 1.4 dead MEQs.

 

2b) The CSMs retaliate:

 

Let's assume there are 8 of them left after the WGBL's assault.

16 attacks aimed at the SCs, each hits on 3+ (67%) => 10.72 hits.

Those 10.72 hits wound on 5+ (33%, bikes have increased toughness) => 3.54 wounds.

The SCs have 3+ armour saves (so only 33% of those wounds gets through) => 1.17 dead SCs (or you should assign the wound to the AB).

 

3) The Power Fist swings:

 

3 PF attacks, each hits on 4+ (50%) => 1.5 hits.

PF instakills and ignores armour => 1.5 dead MEQs.

 

Total:

 

5.14 dead CSMs

1.17 dead SCs (or a single wound on the AB)

 

Kills/losses = 4.393 (so for every 4.393 enemies killed, you lost 1 Swiftclaw).

[Vlk]

:D Now for the WP pack, the logic is the same. The only change is that the WP gives his packmates re-rolls to hit (let's say it's versus infantry) and he only has 4 PW attacks himself (and they have standard initiative):

 

1a) The Wolf Priest attacks

 

4 attacks, each hits on 3+ (67%) => 2.68 hits

Those hits wound on 4+ (50%) and ignore armour => 1.34 dead MEQs

 

1b) The 3 Swiftclaws and the AB attack

 

17 attacks, each hits at 75% thanks to the re-roll (2 rolls, each hits at 4+) => 12.75 hits

Those hits wound on 4+ (50%) => 6.38 wounds

The CSMs have 3+ armour saves (so only 33% of those wounds gets through) => 2.1 dead MEQs.

 

1c) The CSMs retaliate

 

20 attacks, each hits on 3+ (67%) => 13.4 hits

Those 13.4 hits wound on 5+ (33%, bikes have increased toughness) => 4.42 wounds.

The SCs have 3+ armour saves (so only 33% of those wounds gets through) => 1.46 dead SCs

 

2) The Power Fist swings:

 

3 PF attacks, each hits at 75% thanks to the re-rolls => 2.25 hits.

PF instakills and ignores armour => 2.25 dead MEQs.

 

Total:

 

5.69 dead CSMs

1.46 dead SCs

 

Kills/losses = 3.897 (so for every 3.897 enemies killed, you lost 1 Swiftclaw).

[ChainsawDR]

awesome, thank you so much. I've got a long train commute to work so will do some more math and see if there is a better loadout.

 

Thanks again vlk, you've been a great help

[Vlk]

More of a great whelp, actually, but I'm doing my best. Thanks :lol: And post as many battle reports as you can, I really like to read about how bikers perform.

[SamaNagol]

Keep them small and use them to support assaults or harass flanks. But then 3 Thunderwolves do the job much better and take up the same slot.