Efficient combination... but is it any good?

[Warprat]

Just going through the codex checking out possible combinations...

 

 

Thunderfire Cannon gives a 50 pt Techmarine + 50 pt Cannon. Techmarine provides Bolster defenses (worth 15ish pts based on scout cloak cost.) The Techmarine can repair the Dread and/or bolster the Scout squad should he survive the destruction of the cannon.

 

Fire support dread (say Rifleman - 2 x TL AC.) does it's shooting, and supports nearby scouts by tarpitting attackers if necessary.

 

Scout squad 1/2 sniper + HB/ML. 1/2 combi-melta sarge w melta bomb + 4 CC scouts (CCW? not sure here...) LS Storm w/multi-melta. Snipers guard the objective with ranged weapons that can fire from turn 1.

 

LS Storm capitalizes on the Scout ability and sargent. Allows scouts to support other squads with cerberus launcher. Also carries jamming beacon to deter deep strike.

 

 

Ultamate setup: Thunderfire goes in center of ruin, with scouts to one side, dread to the other. Pretty low cost (455pts) for 4 units, good synergy.

 

Warprat ;)

[minigun762]

I see where you're going with it, but I've never been a fan of trying to work out elaborate combinations. I'm always worried about the whole group getting hit by an assault unit and destroyed in cover.

 

A single Assault Squad of 10 Marines and a Power Fist would probably be able to take it all out without suffering more then 50% losses.

[Koremu]

In my experience 'efficient' and 'sniper scouts' do not belong in the same sentence.

[Grey Mage]

Why just one squad? If your taking snipers, take two squads of five, and enjoy the better BS and extra attack if your assaulted... and better leadership in both squads.

[DarKHaZZ13]

Koremu has hit it in one

scouts = terrible

they are not efficient in any way, shape or form...

unless your running them with assult weapons like shotguns, as a suicide squad...but why would you do that in the first place?

[Koremu]

I don't mind CC scouts. When deployed in an LSS they are very useful, as they have the speed to get to a target they can kill before anyone can really stop them.

 

Snipers I have never found useful. Even with a 2+ cover save.

[Giga]

In my experience 'efficient' and 'sniper scouts' do not belong in the same sentence.

This.

 

Just about the only good thing they can do, as far as I'm concerned, is be used as objective campers in lysander/motf/techmarine lists, since bolster defenses then enables them to get a 2+ cover save, which IMHO makes them better then tacticals at objective camping.

[Warprat]

Mmmm, sniper rifles baaaad (Say it like a sheep, LOL!)... Or sniper rifles baaaad, so douuuble down...

 

OK, enough late night fun!

 

 

 

So what would work better? Sniper rifles are roughly equal to what... 1 round of regular marine rapid fire with a bolter? So maybe a Tac squad (Combat Squad w/plasma cannon) would work better.

 

Warprat ;)

 

 

 

Edit: From Giga- Just about the only good thing they can do, as far as I'm concerned, is be used as objective campers in lysander/motf/techmarine lists, since bolster defenses then enables them to get a 2+ cover save, which IMHO makes them better then tacticals at objective camping.

 

Sniper rifles gooood... with clooooaks, now I'm confused. LOL!

[Giga]

Nothing to be confused about.

 

10 sniper scouts with a heavy bolter and camo-cloaks cost 180 pts. So, when they're in terrain, they have a 3+ cover save.

 

Lysander, Techmarines, and Master of the Forge have the BOLSTER DEFENSES ability, which enables them to improve one piece of cover to give better save.

 

So, you bolster the cover the sniper scouts are in and, voila, you have 10 sniper scouts with a 2+ cover save. They don't do much damage (9 sniper rifles average 2.25 wounds per turn (actually a little more, since the sergeant is BS4, but nobody cares for that), but hopefully you get lots of hits with that heavy bolter hellfire shell so that evens it out a little), but then again they're very hard to kill due to their 2+ cover save.

 

Hence, they become a good objective-camping unit, as they have an effective 36" range, 2+ cover save, can infiltrate, can outflank, have a scout move, and only cost 180 pts for 10 scoring T4 bodies.

 

 

 

 

 

Keep in mind this only works if you have bolster defenses in your army. Otherwise, I think it's way better to just get a combat squad with a plasma cannon for your objective-camping needs, or simply hold that objective with a bunch of tacticals embarked in a rhino.

[Koremu]

All of the advantages of Sniper Scouts only work until the enemy come over and physically turf you out of the terrain. 2+ cover saves are all very well until you remember that you have only WS3 and a 4+ save in CC.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

All of the advantages of Sniper Scouts only work until the enemy come over and physically turf you out of the terrain. 2+ cover saves are all very well until you remember that you have only WS3 and a 4+ save in CC.

 

Not to mention the largest heavy flamer bait since Pathfinders.

[ShinyRhino]

One thing to note is that Bolster Defenses only works on ruins. You can't bolster area cover, like a tree stand or rock pile.

 

While all of the OP's listed combos might be complimentary, when you put them all together, there's just too many moving parts, IMO. Sure, you want all your units to be able to work together to achieve an end, but don't chain several units together to this end. If you need a four-unit combo to do something, one of those four units will fail, and render the remainder less effective.

[Warprat]

One thing to note is that Bolster Defenses only works on ruins. You can't bolster area cover, like a tree stand or rock pile.

 

While all of the OP's listed combos might be complimentary, when you put them all together, there's just too many moving parts, IMO. Sure, you want all your units to be able to work together to achieve an end, but don't chain several units together to this end. If you need a four-unit combo to do something, one of those four units will fail, and render the remainder less effective.

 

 

Good points, but I see it as more of a bulk discount, than a combo that has to work together all the time. Some of the added benefits are already paid for, like bolster defenses. The techmarine, really the heart of the combo, is considered mostly useless by many. Really, I'm just trying to find a use for him by conversely beefing up other units, thereby making the total more desireable.

 

The dread is decent on it's own, as well as the CC scouts + storm. The thunderfire cannon is a pretty good bargain, but only if you buy the other units in synergy with it. The sniper scouts seem to be getting a less than warm reception. But geez, its only four low cost dudes and a decent heavy. Replace it with a plasma cannon Tac squad + razorback, if you feel scout adverse... You still get the benefits of the ruins.

 

Putting the dread, techmarine, and scout squad all in one ruin would probably not always make sense, especially against pie plates. Sometimes you don't even get a ruin. But you can put them nearby to each other. If your facing a heavy ranged list, place the cannon and dread together in the ruin. Hoards, go with the cannon and the scouts. You lose a little, but not much. If you have a spare razorback available, the techmarine can board it, along with the tac squad. Or get a Rhino instead, and try drive by flaming/plasma. Kill points? Don't combat squad.

 

This is a combo, but everything need not be joined at the hip, like assault termies and a land raider. It's flexable... one part will be probably be destroyed, and probably it's the thunderfire cannon. That's factored in. Will the techmarine always survive to be useful later on, of course not. But, that's a given too. All the other units are pretty good on thier own... just better together.

 

I guess the point I am trying to make is that the thunderfire cannon, combo'ed with the other units you would probably take normally, may be a decent choice.

 

Warprat ;)

[Koremu]

The Thunderfire Cannon has thus far proved a pretty decent choice for me anyway. Mind you I regularly play vs. 'nids.

[Frosty the Pyro]

In my experience 'efficient' and 'sniper scouts' do not belong in the same sentence.

scouts with snipers outshoot rapid fireing helfire sterngard vs 2+ saves on a point for point bases. and vs 3+ i think they outperform non rapid fire stern, though I dont remember explicitly for that one, as I was mathhamering vs 2+ MC for that point.

[Koremu]

In my experience 'efficient' and 'sniper scouts' do not belong in the same sentence.

scouts with snipers outshoot rapid fireing helfire sterngard vs 2+ saves on a point for point bases. and vs 3+ i think they outperform non rapid fire stern, though I dont remember explicitly for that one, as I was mathhamering vs 2+ MC for that point.

 

Neither of those options is actually efficient at the job though.

 

My method of dealing with MCs is and will remain Plasma backed with Lascannon. Command Squads especially. Backed up by a Captain who is capable of taking down a wounded beast usually.

 

Sniper Scouts have never done anything apart from disappoint for me. YMMV.

[mowglie]

scouts with snipers outshoot rapid fireing helfire sterngard vs 2+ saves on a point for point bases. and vs 3+ i think they outperform non rapid fire stern, though I dont remember explicitly for that one, as I was mathhamering vs 2+ MC for that point.

 

The advantage of the Sternguard is that they're flexible though. They can shoot at things in cover, they can shoot at high T things, they can ignore 3+ or 4+ saves...

 

Also, do the Scouts really outperform?

 

Ten scouts with camo cloaks and a heavy bolter cost 180 points.

Ten naked sternguard cost 250 points.

 

Firing vs a T6 MC with a 2+ save:-

 

Scouts: 9 snipers + HB => 4.5 sniper hits + 1.5 hellfire hits => 4.5 * 1/6 = 0.75 rending hits, 4.5 * 1/3 + 1.5 * 5/6 = 2.75 wounding hits = 0.75 + (2.75 * 1/6) =~=> 1.2 wounds => 6.7 wounds per 1000 points

Sternguard: 20 hellfire shots => 40/3 hellfire hits => 200/18 hellfire wounding hits => 200/108 = 1.85 wounds => 7.4 wounds per 1000 points

 

Did I get something wrong there? What exactly were you comparing?

 

Now realistically, the sternguard are going to have a rhino and at least a few combi-meltas. If you up their cost to 335 (10 combi-meltas, rhino):-

 

Sternguard: 10 melta shots => 20/3 melta hits => 100/18 = 5.56 wounds (no save) => 16.58 wounds per 1000 points (although obviously they can only do that once)

 

You're probably going to fire five combi-meltas at a time - depending on how many wounds the MC has.

 

Obviously we're not really comparing apples with apples there - the sternguard are more flexible, less vulnerable in CC, less vulnerable when not in cover. The scouts are more resilient to low-AP weapons in cover (especially with a Techmarine), and score without Kantor, and are shooting from further away.

 

Should say something, though, that even shooting at their most preferred target, scouts still aren't delivering point-for-point efficiency...