Lash Tactics

[Vomikron Noxis]

Greetings all,

 

Well now, in order to step up my tournament experience I'm giving some thought to running a dual lash list (in place of my usual 'ard Death Guard list). Now everyone claims to know how lash works and how horrible it is (blah blah cheese etc), but I'm interested in hearing from those who actually use it regularly or face it regularly, and therefore really know how it is.

 

What I'm wondering is, is dual lash still one of the top tourney lists? If so, how does it compete against the other 'tourney lists', especially Seer Council and Space Wolves (both with an abundance of anti-psyker tricks).

 

Also, what do you use lash for? I know this sounds like a trick question, but seriously. Is it mainly for template-bunching, or for more outside-of-the-box utility such as lashing into charge range, out of cover, off an objective etc. Any cunning tricks with lash? Finally, what do you use the princes for when you cant use lash?

 

Phew, a lot of questions I know, but I'm just trying to get people talking about lash without getting all riled up about how sickeningly broken it (supposedly) is.

 

Input welcome!

[Cale]

While template bunching is useful, you're going to find that it's more useful for lashing guys into range (charge range especially, but gun range isn't out of the question either) out of range (again, moving them so that they can't charge or shoot something important) or off of objectives (which is certainly the single most potentially powerful use of the power).

 

As for whether it's at the top of the tournament lists, probably yes. On the other hand, psychic hosers abound, these days, and the Lash Prince isn't a very spectacular prince outside of the Lash. So, consider your metagame. If you're likely to face the particularly rough anti-psycher armies, consider a Khorne prince, instead.

 

The point is that it's a very versatile power, and everything you've heard about it doing is something which could potentially be helpful to you--context alone will dictate what will be the most useful application--but it won't be very useful at all unless it works reliably, which it won't against armies with heavy anti-psycher.

[Ridmasta]

I like to lash orks n nids into swear words, but thats me!

 

If the op has a librarian or farseer its hard to work

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Article on dual lash (quoted from my blog-link in sig):

 

OK, so I gave Khurdur over at B&C some advice on his CSM list and he posted back:

 

is that all there is to chaos space marines- daemon princes, berzerkers, plague marines and as many obliterators you can fit?

 

My immediate thought was that he had forgotten Termicide, but then I started thinking about why the answer to his question was basically yes. Let's look at the roles each of these fills in a CSM army and why each outperforms the competition.

 

Daemon Princes: There's really one choice that makes a top level CSM build work here, and it's the Lash Prince. One of the main functions of any DP in a top level CSM build is to jack PM or Zerk squads out of long meatgrinder combats, and the Lash Prince seems to lose out to its competition, the MoN Warptime Prince, in this slot. I'll explain why it doesn't in a sec, but the real reason that the Lash Prince is superior is its synergystic effect on the whole list.

 

Yes, the much maligned CHEEZE!! Uberpower Fzorgle HURRR itself-Lash of Submission. Lash provides three main functions-grouping squads for blast templates, controlling enemy assault specialists, and dragging stuff into multicharge range for a squad of zerks. Lash's power is such that it's why the Lash Prince actually outperforms the MoN Prince in the "jack out of combat" role-fewer things make it into combat with increased efficiency Obliterator Plasma Cannons from grouping, and that large boy mob that'd bog a PM squad down for the rest of the game can be shoved back and Rhino blocked until you can deal with it. Hence, combats go faster even before the Prince joins in.

 

Now why Daemon Prince over Chaos Lord or Sorcerer? Well, the Lord can't have Warptime and is MUCH weaker in general (no eternal warrior, T4 base), so he can't match up in survivability or HtH power. Furthermore, an infantry-mashing lord with MoK, Claws, Combi, and Wings is 5 points more than the DP without the synergy boost to the rest of the list. An MoN, Wings, Daemon Weapon, and Combi Lord is even worse in terms of the points gap.

 

The Sorcerer isn't much better. A Lash/Wings Sorcerer, while he can hide in a Rhino, can only fire safely if his ride moves less than 6". And once he's out in the open, without eternal warrior, both he (and his attendant Plague Marine squad) are going to be atomised. So when the Sorcerer dies, you lose a Rhino for blocking/tank shocking off objectives, your Lash, your reasonably killy HQ, 2 meltas, a Powerfist, and a scoring unit. As opposed to losing just a Lash and a pretty killy HQ when the Prince goes under.

 

Plague Marines: Plague Marines really compete mainly with the amazing basic Chaos Space Marines for space in your army. So what do the PMs do better? Well, the PMs have a huge survivability advantage in the form of T5, FNP, and blight grenades. A squad of 7 PMs will survive more small arms (non armor ignoring) fire than 10 CSM, and if they get hit by something that wipes them, you can be pretty certain it would have wiped the CSM as well. What PMs do for a top level CSM list is tie down elements of the opposing army. If you have a squad riding around in your face popping off Melta at you, are you going to shoot/charge them or focus on the Obliterators? The choice gives your opponent both the opportunity to make a mistake and to tie up one of his units for a long time. While the PMs are grinding through combat (which they'll win, with a well-timed DP assist, against almost any other unit in the game), the other elements of the list can take care of the scary units in an opponent's army.

 

Khorne Berzerkers: Berzerkers are great in and of themselves: a scoring unit that'll beat the crap out of other army's assault specialists. They compete with Possessed (unreliable and still worse if they don't get Furious Charge or Power Weapons) and big HtH termie squads (that need a Land Raider to even see HtH), so they're our best assault unit. Are they really needed in a top level CSM list, though?

 

Maybe. What Berzerkers provide is an uber jack out of combat. Need that PM squad back NEXT TURN? Berzerkers. The other thing Berzerkers can do is help with enemy assault units. If there's something on the other side of the table that can reliably beat through PMs, hit it with the Zerks. If they don't kill it, they'll at least weaken it significantly. They'll also chew straight through hordes. But are they vital when you already have DPs to jack you out, Lash for assault control, and Oblits+Lash for anti-horde? Not vital, but they can be nice to have.

 

Obliterators: Obliterators are a godsend, and are what really kicks this list up to top tables. A 2+/5++ and 2 wounds each mean that in cover, these guys aren't going anywhere fast. A wide variety of weapons mean that Oblits can do it all and do it well. Lascannons can open transports for lashing the contents, plasma cannons can rip through anything from Terminators to Boyz after it's been clumped, TL plasma guns give them defense against DS/outflanking units, and TL meltas make the suicide-droppable. They compete with Defilers for Heavy slots and win because Defiler's can't do anti-transport or anti-terminator. Furthermore, you'll never lose an Oblit squad to a single Heavy Bolter shooting them from behind (happened to a Defiler of mine, ugh).

 

Now the question is composition. How many Oblits do you take? Well, at 1500, 4 leaves you enough room for a workable rest of a list. At 1750, you can take 6. At 2000, 8. Anything higher is 9 and more troops.

 

Now is Lash/PM/Zerk/Oblit the best build out of CSM? Yes. It has the few bad matchups and will tear through armies like Orks really effectively. There are two other builds that work pretty well out of CSM, though, and so my next two posts will talk about Chaoszilla and Raider Rush respectively.

[Vomikron Noxis]

Thanks for the comments so far guys.

 

@Iron Chaos Brute: Great article there, I'm thoroughly enjoying reading through your blog as we speak. Your feelings about the slow decline of CSM in terms of the overall metagame certainly echoes my own feelings. I love my CSMs, they are still a great army and play very well in a club environment, but when it comes to tourneys, it does seem to be the case that they cant consistently compete with the big boys (Orks, Guard, Wolves, and even Eldar). Mostly I blame Phil Kelly for this, but that's another matter altogether...

 

Hmmm I guess maybe an Ork or (Traitor) Guard army might be next on the agenda...

[Corpse.]

I'll be direct.

 

Greetings all,

 

Salutations.

 

Well now, in order to step up my tournament experience I'm giving some thought to running a dual lash list (in place of my usual 'ard Death Guard list). Now everyone claims to know how lash works and how horrible it is (blah blah cheese etc), but I'm interested in hearing from those who actually use it regularly or face it regularly, and therefore really know how it is.

 

I have used it extensively and had it used extensively on my forces of various types. DE/Chaos/Orks/Tyranid/SM(traded them)/LATD-err I mean IG/Kroot(yeah they are illegal now too)/Tau/Eldar and so on.

 

What I'm wondering is, is dual lash still one of the top tourney lists? If so, how does it compete against the other 'tourney lists', especially Seer Council and Space Wolves (both with an abundance of anti-psyker tricks).

 

The anti psyker 'tricks' can be a pain in the rear but fear not. Its what having two is for. Often you will not have the resources to fully appreciate two lashes in one turn. The odds of 3D6 is 10.5, and one will be above, the other should be below. Among other things, if he spams rune priests your core is still solid where as he paid for less then HQ-worthy when in close combat with an angry prince.

 

Also, what do you use lash for? I know this sounds like a trick question, but seriously. Is it mainly for template-bunching, or for more outside-of-the-box utility such as lashing into charge range, out of cover, off an objective etc. Any cunning tricks with lash? Finally, what do you use the princes for when you cant use lash?

 

It has a number of uses. The most creative one I have seen is putting one model in area terrain to force the unit to take a difficult terrain check, and wrap the rest of the unit around a vehicle that wants to move. There are plenty of others though, and not all just 'blast lashing'.

 

1: Tug a unit to melee range, first turn charges with 60 raptors with icons that make them hurt more or hurt faster or be as tough as bikes for less then what bikes cost. Also, a single prince with a lash can remove a nasty unit from sight if you prefer. You may also use it after deep striking as well, so it can range the whole table when you prepare for it (terminator librarian for example).

 

2: Aside from pushing a unit in difficult terrain, there is a possibility you can push them so far out of sight their move and shoot ability is unable to reach you or see you with a fair number of models.

 

3: Keep their melee away, or put their front models in the way of their other models when they must remain stationary to shoot. Pulling a unit of bolter tacticals in front of a unit of plasma cannon devastators will make an awkward loss of firepower in some way or another.

 

4: Yanking around large units like a mob of 30 orks in a way that makes it cumbersome to handle. Like meshing them with the mob next to them and with the rule pick one unit, move it, then no longer move that unit until a rule dictates it can be moved can really hamper the progress of an ork swarm.

 

5: Pulling a unit just right so that when you charge, they cover all the possible space that they could charge another unit at yours. This works well with high leadership enemies that are tough, but not so savvy in close combat. This is a favorite daemon prince tactic because he has so little base space to spare, because of pile in and all.

 

Lastly..

Lash blast is not just for lashes, it has been around for a decade or as long as tank shock has been here. Try this yourself with a unit you normally set up, and then tank shock a transport into one side of the unit (not the middle) and have it sit right where the unit would have been. By the rules, they are pushed the shortest distance out of the way, and must remain in coherency. Top that with frags, plasma cannon spam, havoc launcher spam, flamers from the rhino hatch (or worse, considering some doom sirens and winds of chaos).

 

Phew, a lot of questions I know, but I'm just trying to get people talking about lash without getting all riled up about how sickeningly broken it (supposedly) is.

 

Input welcome!

 

Lash is not broken, it requires another element of the army to work or it "shoots" at a target trying to stop it from doing something. Everyone who has lash, is a melee monster and hates being shot. Either your busting up marines guarding the HQ, a solo HQ, or a T5 prince in the open when taking it out. You can always go to ground if you don't want lash to work on you, which imperial guard have been laughing at it since they got their new orders. You must also pass a pinning check to see if you move the unit at all, which sometimes is awful considering the LD of some units.

 

Plus the lists that include lash focus on lash rather then have it as a global synergy for flexibility. Which is the downside of it from a psychological perspective.

 

 

Often when I get lashed, I go to ground. It's far better then having my unit bombarded or being pulled into a slaughter. People lash before hurting a unit most often, and going to ground early while wasting someone's lash attempt is quite a score if you look at it with the cup is half full ideal.

[Ashe Darke]

Among other things, if he spams rune priests your core is still solid where as he paid for less then HQ-worthy when in close combat with an angry prince.

Doesn't the FAQ now say that no matter how many they have only one can do it per turn?

[the jeske]

yes it does. he could do a inq book psychic hood and rune staff for 2.

[Cale]

Often when I get lashed, I go to ground. It's far better then having my unit bombarded or being pulled into a slaughter. People lash before hurting a unit most often, and going to ground early while wasting someone's lash attempt is quite a score if you look at it with the cup is half full ideal.

 

This doesn't work. You can't go to ground as a response to the Lash; you can only go to ground "after the enemy has rolled to hit and wound." Lash doesn't roll to hit or roll to wound, so it doesn't trigger the ability to go to ground. Anyone who tries to avoid getting a unit moved by going to ground is cheating.

[nojinx]

I use the lash during any tournament type event, typically in pairs on DPs. The rest of my list can vary widely depending on what I've recently painted or have an itch to try out, but almost always include plague marines.

 

I use lash to close assault distances. Great when combined with Raider Rush lists or raptor units (the latter of which I prefer). While I like the possibility of using lash at the end of a game to move a unit off an objective, this rarely happens (often my DPs are gone by then).

 

The third use of lash for my purposes is to push units away or into difficult terrain. Nob bikers and heavy weapon infantry are a common target in this case.

 

Often when I get lashed, I go to ground. It's far better then having my unit bombarded or being pulled into a slaughter. People lash before hurting a unit most often, and going to ground early while wasting someone's lash attempt is quite a score if you look at it with the cup is half full ideal.

 

Unfortunately, the CSM FAQ clarifies that going to ground does not affect the use of a lash if done in response. A unit that is already pinned before the chaos player targets the unit cannot be moved, but going to ground as a reaction will not stop the lash from taking effect.