Beat this List

[KeithGatchalian]

There's a guy who has been dominating the local tournament scene with the following list. If I take a generic take all comers Wolf list, what in our book can help give me an edge against him?

 

From Memory....

 

1 BIG unit of Thousand Sons

 

1 Flying Daemon Prince with Lash

1 Sorceror with Lash

 

a couple of 10 man Thousand Son units with rhinoes

 

a couple of dreads

 

a couple of Defilers

 

and Oblits.

 

The big unit of thousand sons is a tough cookie to crack, with the ap 3 bolts and invulnerable save....

 

He kills enemy transports with the dreads, oblits and defilers and lashes units into range of the inferno bolts or away from vulnerable units.

 

I can see using a rune priest to negate Lash...podding GH's to hit the dreads and defilers ( though I historically blow the melta shots), but to break that big squad I'd have to hit it with alot of stuff all at once, and that's the hard thing. I could try a land raider, but I hate taking them, as its too many eggs in one basket....

 

Anything I may have missed? I generally prefer in theme lists, and I abhor TWC etc, but otherwise I'm open to anything.

[Quillen]

If he can't see it he can't lash it. So hide in transports.

 

Land Raiders get you there. They are extremly hard to kill.

 

How many points are we talking?

Without points not much we can say.

 

And you always see one of these lists in a tourny and it always does bad in score cause everyone gives it crap for sportsman. Lash lines are the suck. A build for 4 year olds to play. If they had kept the powers divergent it would have been fine. But with 1k and slannesh running hand in hand.....

 

 

You want to set up on top of him. In his face. Cause 1k sons suck in melee. All you have to do it tie them up and you win.

[Vassakov]

Rune Priests and Terminators and Land Raiders. Couple of squads of GH's in Pods to give him Defilers and Oblitorators something to worry about, and load up on the Wolf Tails.

[Thunderpup]

You should be able to tear up those thousand sons in close combat.

[Spacefrisian]

Some fun thing to be considered is taking an hq with the following setup.

 

Frostblade, boltpistol, wolftooth, saga of the beast slayer and Meltabombs. You will be laughing how easy it will be to demolish his walkers in Close combat. Hitting on a 3+ with a re-roll and S8 +2d6.

 

Wolftails seems also usefull as well as a Runepriest.

[Wildfire]

Too bad you don't play Orks. ;)

 

The problem with that list is it's keyed to beat MEQs. You'll have a hard time no matter what. To stop lash I'd consider taking both a Rune Priest and a GK Brother-Captain with Psychic Hood. These bonuses should stack (depending on the rules interpretation in your area), and give you twice as many chances to negate the Lash. The second thing you should do is make sure all of your units are in transports (or out of range of Lash). Third, I would take at least one set of lascannons somewhere (I'd suggest on Long Fangs with 2x las and 3x missile) and use the lascannons to take out the oblits early, to help protect your transports. Use the missiles on the dreads/defilers, whichever is more dangerous to your transports. Don't drop pod unless it's termies, that gives him a round of you sitting in the open to rapid-fire AP3 death on. Once his transport popping abilities are toast, you should have a fairly easy time of it. The object is to go from a transport to close combat without having to stand in the open.

 

If you prefer, a few units that can move+charge more than 12" would be useful. Bikers might be useful as well, turbo-boost them in close for the invulnerable save then assualt the next turn. It would have to be a few, though, so he couldn't Lash them all away and/or destroy them in a single turn. A Landraider might be good too, especially if held in reserve a turn or two until you've killed everything that could penetrate it's armor. You don't have to put a super unit in it, in fact I'd recommend against it (a TS invulnerable save is only barely worse than it's normal save). Just a unit of Grey Hunters would be fine.

[Thunderpup]

Some fun thing to be considered is taking an hq with the following setup.

 

Frostblade, boltpistol, wolftooth, saga of the beast slayer and Meltabombs. You will be laughing how easy it will be to demolish his walkers in Close combat. Hitting on a 3+ with a re-roll and S8 +2d6.

 

Wolftails seems also usefull as well as a Runepriest.

 

I was told by someone here that a Wolftooth Necklace does not apply to meltabombs... Because hitting with them has nothing to do with Weapon Skills but is simpley a walker special rule. So still 6s to hit.

[Bearboy]

Big pack of wolves sheilding against the ap3.

[Natanael]

Or just a lot of big units of wolves. When your 45 fen wolves is in his face turn 2, he cant shoot you GHs. Dont be afraid to tie up dreads and stuff with fen wolves, since they buy you time to close with your rhinos and other stuff. Dont forget your Saga of the Wolfkin tough.

[nurglespuss]

Also don't forget templates, everyone under-estimates frag grenades, I've been killing marine squads with them lately.

[MJayC50]

this guy can only have 3 heavy support choices. you have 5 listed if you mean only 1 group of oblits. this cant happen. besides that. get some thunderwolves! lords on wolves with wc/ss. rune priests in rhino's with living lightening and jaws of the world wolf. as many wolftails as you can fit in aswell in case the priest fails his 4+ dispel. long fangs are great vs everything. i like 3 missiles and 2 lascannons in a squad. in your case the las can instakill the oblits if they fail the cover save they are sure to get and the rockets can hit the demon prince or vehicles. a wolf army shouldnt really have a problem with this list. 1k sons are not all that good but they can hurt you if you let them/get lucky. i would charge as soon as possible. chase him off the board!

[Wildfire]

I could be wrong (don't have my CSM 'dex available at the moment) but I believe that CSM dreads are now elites.

[Brother Nihm]

You should be able to tear up those thousand sons in close combat.

Agreed, TSons are absolutely bollocks in hand to hand. That's where his prince come in. If you can isolate/do away with/tie up his prince it will leave his Tsons vulnerable to assaults.

 

I like the suggestion of using TWolf cavalry. Maybe use a cheap tarpit unit (say Bloodclaws) in a Rhino (immune to Lash) to harass his prince?

 

I could be wrong (don't have my CSM 'dex available at the moment) but I believe that CSM dreads are now elites.

Correct - they are Elites.

[antique_nova]

1500 points i take it? i will rustle something up!

[deedark]

Must be more than 1500pts

 

20TS plus 2x10 TS in Rhinos is over 1000

 

D.

[SpaceWolf13C]

lots of wolves. ap3 doesn't do much good when they have 6+ armor anyways. outswarm him. rune priest for sure. large amounts of heavy bolter fire will make his 3+ inv worthless. wolf scouts tooled up to take out or tie up infantry might be good. long fangs can pop his dreads, land raiders if you get lucky, and lay down some heavy bolter fire. drop pod in some meltas to pop the heavy armour. idk but you should definately be able to outnumber him and wolves are fast.

[LPetersson]

My initial thought is Ragnar+GH in Land Raider, gunning for the big unit, 2 Melta Dreads podding in and destroying a defiler/dread each and a squad of TDA Wolf Guard with Arjac

 

Have some more GH at the back for when the lashes are gone, and one or two squads or long fangs with MLs to laydonw some serious fire on the DP/Dreads/Defilers. That should leave him with precious little left after turn 1...

[Spacefrisian]

Some fun thing to be considered is taking an hq with the following setup.

 

Frostblade, boltpistol, wolftooth, saga of the beast slayer and Meltabombs. You will be laughing how easy it will be to demolish his walkers in Close combat. Hitting on a 3+ with a re-roll and S8 +2d6.

 

Wolftails seems also usefull as well as a Runepriest.

 

I was told by someone here that a Wolftooth Necklace does not apply to meltabombs... Because hitting with them has nothing to do with Weapon Skills but is simpley a walker special rule. So still 6s to hit.

 

As far as i know the Meltabomb attack is a Closecombat attack and Wolftooth lets you hit on a 3+ regardless so if that person can refer to a page where it states it cant be combined i believe him otherwise its possible.

[LPetersson]

Some fun thing to be considered is taking an hq with the following setup.

 

Frostblade, boltpistol, wolftooth, saga of the beast slayer and Meltabombs. You will be laughing how easy it will be to demolish his walkers in Close combat. Hitting on a 3+ with a re-roll and S8 +2d6.

 

Wolftails seems also usefull as well as a Runepriest.

 

I was told by someone here that a Wolftooth Necklace does not apply to meltabombs... Because hitting with them has nothing to do with Weapon Skills but is simpley a walker special rule. So still 6s to hit.

 

As far as i know the Meltabomb attack is a Closecombat attack and Wolftooth lets you hit on a 3+ regardless so if that person can refer to a page where it states it cant be combined i believe him otherwise its possible.

 

This.

It's only against models with no weaponskill, such as some vehicles/buildings, that the WTN doesn't work...

[antique_nova]

I recently sent the guy a PM. since it's a list designed to beat MEQ, and because the thousand sons are more on firepower than scoring units, i came up with the list and tactics below, however this may have the thread moved to the lists section. The thousand sons list looks too static and especially when your fighting thousand sons, pods become a no no and the old rhino rush tactic, with fast assualters ( we have TWC, nothing beats it at assualting things quickly! ) and lots of long fang weapons comes into play.

 

HQ - 1 kill point

 

(Joins Grey Hunter Pack 4)

1x Rune Priest

1x Chooser of the slain

- spells -

1x Jaws of the world wolf

1x Living Lightning

 

Elites - 0 kill points

 

Wolf Guard Pack

(Joins Long Fang Pack 1)

1x Wolf Guard

 

(Joins Long Fang Pack 2)

1x Wolf Guard

 

(Joins Long Fang Pack 3)

1x Wolf Guard

 

(Joins Grey Hunter Pack 1)

1x Wolf Guard

1x Thunder hammer

1x Combi-melta

 

(Joins Grey Hunter Pack 2)

1x Wolf Guard

1x Thunder hammer

1x Combi-melta

 

(Joins Grey Hunter Pack 3)

1x Wolf Guard

1x Thunder hammer

1x Combi-melta

 

(Joins Grey Hunter Pack 4)

1x Wolf Guard

1x Terminator Armour

1x Cyclone Missile Launcher

 

Troops - 7 Kill Points

 

Grey Hunter Pack 1

7x Grey Hunters

1x Melta gun

1x Mark of the Wulfen

1x Wolf standard

- Transport -

1x Rhino

1x extra armour

 

Grey Hunter Pack 2

7x Grey Hunters

1x Melta gun

1x Mark of the Wulfen

1x Wolf standard

- Transport -

1x Rhino

1x extra armour

 

Grey Hunter Pack 3

8x Grey Hunters

1x Melta gun

1x Mark of the Wulfen

1x Wolf standard

- Transport -

1x Rhino

1x extra armour

 

Grey Hunter Pack 4

5x Grey Hunters

1x Plasma gun

 

Fast Attack - 2 Kill points

 

4x Thunderwolves

1x Thunder hammer

1x melta bomb

 

4x Thunderwolves

1x Thunder hammer

1x melta bomb

 

Heavy Support -3 Kill points

 

Long Fang Pack 1

6x Long Fang

1x Pack Leader

3x Missile launcher

2x Lascannon

 

Long Fang Pack 2

6x Long Fang

1x Pack Leader

3x Missile launcher

2x Lascannon

 

Long Fang Pack 3

6x Long Fang

1x Pack Leader

3x Missile launcher

2x Lascannon

 

Total kill points: 13

 

1st turn tactic:

The long fangs take out his defilers first with lascannons, then the oblitorators with missile launchers. Then the dreadnoughts with whatever else you have. keep the rhinos moving forward and smoke first turn and hide your TWC behind them ( remember to run your TWC ) ( slant your rhinos sideways so you can fit more of your TWC behind them to prevent them dieing to firepower and lash )

 

2nd turn tactic:

Move the rhinos out of the way next turn and use them to block the firepower path (LOS) of the any thousand sons squad that you do not think your TWC can reach this turn. Shoot all lascannons at the DP and shoot the missile launchers at the rhinos.

 

The rhinos must die at all costs, the daemon prince is your second objective, the rhinos being your first. Then shoot his dreadnoughts. Charge with your TWC at the thousand sons squads that had their rhinos popped, leave the DP because he will be scared of the TWC and go after your rhinos so his big thousand sons squad can rapid fire one of your grey hunter squads ( which is fine, you should expect to lose a few squads so let them shoot something else ). If you cannot assualt the large thousand sons squad use your rhinos to block their LOS to your TWC. Pop a rhinos behind another if you want your rhinos to have cover saves.

 

3rd turn tactic:

Everyone pops out of rhinos and mops up. The TWC take care of the DP if you cannot shoot it down.

Keep the librarian with your grey hunter squad and near your long fangs at all times to prevent them being lashed out of position and unable to shoot. You may advance with that squad and rune priest to prevent your TWC being lashed if you wish.

 

Also, when your hiding the TWC behind the rhinos, line up the first TWC squad behind the rhinos in a striaght line and then do the same again with the other TWC squad behind the first TWC squad.

 

Hope that helps!

 

thanks

antique_nova

[Wildfire]

Some fun thing to be considered is taking an hq with the following setup.

 

Frostblade, boltpistol, wolftooth, saga of the beast slayer and Meltabombs. You will be laughing how easy it will be to demolish his walkers in Close combat. Hitting on a 3+ with a re-roll and S8 +2d6.

 

Wolftails seems also usefull as well as a Runepriest.

 

I was told by someone here that a Wolftooth Necklace does not apply to meltabombs... Because hitting with them has nothing to do with Weapon Skills but is simpley a walker special rule. So still 6s to hit.

 

As far as i know the Meltabomb attack is a Closecombat attack and Wolftooth lets you hit on a 3+ regardless so if that person can refer to a page where it states it cant be combined i believe him otherwise its possible.

 

It's in the FAQ, I believe.

[Wildfire]

1st turn tactic:

The long fangs take out his defilers first with lascannons, then the oblitorators with missile launchers.

 

I think you meant the other way around. Don't oblits have a 2+?

[styx]

1st turn tactic:

The long fangs take out his defilers first with lascannons, then the oblitorators with missile launchers.

 

I think you meant the other way around. Don't oblits have a 2+?

 

 

Yep, Oblits would giggle at Missiles, you may get that lucky 1 in 6 it fails and goes poof to an instant kill, gotta assume also he isn't dumb and will have them in cover.

 

Also in this case, TWC is nice, but to me I would rather have more scoring troops. Looking at this list, I don't see how this guy win's an objective based game. He also would never be able to win the capture the base mission also. He has no mobility. Cleary this is tuned to win against Kill Point games.

 

Focus Fire on Oblits, Defilers and Demon Princes. This guy works from a simple principle of remove the transport, lash'em, shoot'em. Kill the princes, he will just shoot...it is built in layers. Personally, he should have went for Slaanesh as the blast weapons are by far more useful than AP...

 

Also a Rune Preist or two with the 5+ power isn't a bad perk to have around also.

[antique_nova]

you don't need a FAQ for the wolftooth necklace being negliable against tanks, it clearly says it works against models with a WS value. So if your hitting tanks or anything without a WS then your necklace doesn't work.

 

Wildfire:

Yea i meant that XD, but yea what do you think of my proposed list and tactic?

thanks

antique_nova

[SamaNagol]

AP3 bolter rounds don't work against Rhino hulls. Nor does Lash. So mech up.

 

His shooting isn't that horrible. Sure defilers and dreads can be nasty, but they are fragile. Take yourself some Long Fangs with Missile Launchers and Lascannon and put them in the backfield in cover. Split fire at the Defilers and Dreads. If he deploys the oblits on the table then take them out with the Lascannon. Taking a WG in Terminator armour with a Cyclone Missile Launcher to lead the pack won't hurt either.

 

Drop podding your own dreads in with Multi Meltas is a good idea. Would take out the defilers swiftly and cause his Troops no end of trouble getting rid of them.

 

And of course a Rune Priest and WTT on whichever models can have them will help. But Mechanized lists do render Lash far less effective.

 

Try and take out his big guns first, then drive right up to his TSons and stay in your rhino. Pop their Rhino out of your top hatch with the 2 Meltaguns, and then assault them in your next turn. It will minimise the effectiveness of his AP3 bolters. But obviously make sure most of the big guns are gone otherwise they will pop the Rhino and leave you hanging out to dry.