Can I attach a WGBL to a Scout squad and outflank?

[Spacefrisian]

Dont make me put up that pic again the faq is very clear about this.

[Oldenhaller]

Following the discussion reguarding fire control it's made me think about OBEL and if there's some corolation there between special rules which affect normal rules. OBEL amends outflank and fire control amends targetting. Because an IC who joins a long fang pack doesn't have fire control he must only target the squad's first target and not another, th rest of the squad is then free to target something else. Does it thus follow that with wolf scouts they are able to outflank but as the special rule cannot be followed by both the unit and the IC at the same time they areunable to do so even tho they retain it?

 

~O

 

edited for spelling

[nurglespuss]

Yep thats my reasoning.

 

Scouts: access outflank, but do not 'outflank' they roll on operat behind enemy lines chart instead. Scouts cannot solely outflank.

 

IC: if given saga of the hunter may outflank. However, they may not use the operate behind enemy lines table. thus its not possible for an IC to outflank with a scout squad, as scout squads cannot solely outflank.

[Grey Mage]

Yep thats my reasoning.

 

Scouts: access outflank, but do not 'outflank' they roll on operat behind enemy lines chart instead. Scouts cannot solely outflank.

 

IC: if given saga of the hunter may outflank. However, they may not use the operate behind enemy lines table. thus its not possible for an IC to outflank with a scout squad, as scout squads cannot solely outflank.

Except it says quite plainly in the FAQ that an IC with Saga of the Hunter can outflank with a scout unit so we know it is in fact possible.

[nurglespuss]

It might say that in the FAQ, but it doesn't clarify how the scouts are able to outflank without rolling on the operate behind enemy lines table. That makes it only a half answer.

[Grey Mage]

Im not saying its a full explanation, just that it must be possible.

[Valerian]

It might say that in the FAQ, but it doesn't clarify how the scouts are able to outflank without rolling on the operate behind enemy lines table. That makes it only a half answer.

 

NP,

 

The FAQ does not clarify how the Scouts are able to Outflank without rolling on the operate Behind Enemy Lines table, because they are not able to Outflank without rolling on that table. Using the BEL table is an inherent part of their rules. Although the IC doesn't have that special rule, with Saga of the Hunter he is able to Outflank, and according to FAQ may join the Wolf Scouts as they Outflank (which must be using the BEL table, as there is no way for them to do otherwise). Additionally, the BEL rule discusses the Wolf Scout "unit", and the Independent Character is a part of that unit, if only temporarily.

 

Following the discussion reguarding fire control it's made me think about OBEL and if there's some corolation there between special rules which affect normal rules. OBEL amends outflank and fire control amends targetting. Because an IC who joins a long fang pack doesn't have fire control he must only target the squad's first target and not another, th rest of the squad is then free to target something else.

 

O,

 

That sure is one hell of a weird way to look at Fire Control in Long Fang Packs; where is the discussion on this? Fire Control is pretty damned simple: When the Squad Leader doesn't shoot, then the Long Fang Pack can split fire between two targets (an exception to the base rule that all of a unit's shots must be allocated against a single enemy unit). The Long Fangs can split their fire anyway they see fit, so long as no more than two enemy units are engaged. The FAQ makes it clear that attaching a Wolf Guard Leader and/or an Independent Character to a Long Fang Pack does not remove their ability to split fire.

 

Implementing this is a no-brainer. Let's say we have a full Long Fang Pack (6 models including the Squad Leader) plus WGL (in TDA with Cyclone Missile Launcher) plus an Independent Character (Rune Priest with Living Lightning). The Squad Leader doesn't fire, and the remaining 7 models can split their fire any way that you wish between any 2 enemy units within range and LOS.

 

V

[SpaceWolf13C]

immortal all-father! i'm feeling the wulfen arise within. can't we just take tooth and claw to the opposition that doesn't realize that an IC with SoH can outflank with the scouts. its not like its overpowered or game destroying. the most thats gonna join is a WGBL or WP. and they're in power armour.

[VorpalDoom]

When a scout unit uses it's outflank ability, it MUST take advantage of it's behind enemy lines rule.

Wolf Guard can join their outflanking, as per the FAQ.

ICs with Saga of the Hunter are allowed to outflank when joining an outflanking unit.

 

The Scouts are Outflanking when they use Behind Enemy Lines.

 

 

Disallowing an IC from joining the scouts (provided the IC has Saga of the Hunter) would be very similar indeed to disallowing someone from deploying in a transport that's in reserves with the unit that's embarked... similarly, it would be like disallowing Bjorn's invulnerable save because he doesn't have wounds, or even stormcaller from protecting vehicles. Perhaps even Jaws of the World Wolf because it's still a shooting attack with no range (thus it misses every time), or forcing a player to roll to hit with murderous hurricane... etc.

 

 

 

ICs can because the FAQ says an IC with Saga of the Hunter can outflank with an outflanking unit, there is only one outflanking unit in the Space Wolves codex, and that's scouts. Behind Enemy Lines IS outlfanking, just with different results, and it does transfer to an attached Wolf Guard, and A Wolf Guard Battle Leader ( at the very least) is likely considered a Wolf Guard if last Codex & FAQ means anything (allowing Wolf Guard Battle Leaders to take Wolf Guard heavy weapon upgrades, because they're still 'wolf guard').

 

 

If you think an IC can't deploy with scouts that are outflanking, you should read the FAQ, it covers it.

[Oldenhaller]

O,

 

That sure is one hell of a weird way to look at Fire Control in Long Fang Packs; where is the discussion on this? Fire Control is pretty damned simple: When the Squad Leader doesn't shoot, then the Long Fang Pack can split fire between two targets (an exception to the base rule that all of a unit's shots must be allocated against a single enemy unit). The Long Fangs can split their fire anyway they see fit, so long as no more than two enemy units are engaged. The FAQ makes it clear that attaching a Wolf Guard Leader and/or an Independent Character to a Long Fang Pack does not remove their ability to split fire.

 

Implementing this is a no-brainer. Let's say we have a full Long Fang Pack (6 models including the Squad Leader) plus WGL (in TDA with Cyclone Missile Launcher) plus an Independent Character (Rune Priest with Living Lightning). The Squad Leader doesn't fire, and the remaining 7 models can split their fire any way that you wish between any 2 enemy units within range and LOS.

 

V

 

 

Morning V,

 

I had a point to argue and then in the course of researching it found that said arguement was null and void. It came down to if special rules are applied across the board or not. Looking at the bloodclaw entry I'd suggest that the special rules from each of the packs is applied to the wolf guard which join them as Beserk chare has the specific caveat that no-one joining the unit gains the benifits also. This would suggest as well that IC's would also gain these benefits as it doesn't specify just wolf guard pack leaders...

 

~O

[WG Vrox]

Clearly they intended the rule/FAQ to allow an IC with SotH to outflank thus OBEL with the scouts, they just didn't use the right words to appease all the RAW lawyers.

 

Anyone arguing that they did not intend the FAQ to clarify this fact has their head up the arse so far they have to pipe air through their navels. Yes I agree they should have used different words but when they revise the FAQ you know it will clarify an IC can OBEL.

 

Vrox

[Wispy]

- By virtue of the FAQ, an IC with SoTH can join an outflanking unit, and outflank with them.

 

- A wolf scout unit that is outflanking moves onto the left or right edge on a roll of 1 or 2, and on any edge on a roll of 4 . They are still outflanking. An outflank is still an outflank, regardless of Operate Behind Enemy Lines does. It does not stop being an outflank move.

 

- A wolf scout does not stop being a wolf scout unit if an IC with SoTH joins. The IC joins the Wolf Scout unit by virtue of the FAQ .

 

- Therefore, an IC with SoTH can join a Wolf Scout unit, and outflank with them. When the outflank dice is rolled, as per the behind enemy line rule, the wolf scout unit (which includes the IC) moves onto the left or right edge on a roll of 1 or 2, or any table edge on a 4,5,6.

 

 

 

 

I can understand the confusion, but I think if you sit down and look at things, the intentions and the RAW are clear here. The things you need to realize is Behind Enemy Lines does not stop the outflank from being anything but an outflank, and a joined IC does not stop the unit from being a Wolf Scout unit.

[Schertenleib]

I was looking though the BRB last night and I think I may have found our answer.

 

 

Universal Special Rules, pg 74 of the BRB:

 

"As this is just a summary, if any of the Codexes include one of these special rules and the rule is different, the one in the Codex takes precedence (representing how the general special rule applies to that specific race)."

 

Space Wolves Codex, pg. 27

 

"Behind Enemy Lines: If a Wolf Scout unit makes use of its ability to outflank, roll a dice when it enters play to see where it may be depolyed."

 

The FAQ says that," He can only join an outflanking unit if he has the ability to outflank because of the Saga of the Hunter".

 

So Saga allows him to join an outflanking unit. The unit outflanks BEL because the Codex takes precedence over the USR according to the BRB.

[dizzy-xc]

I was looking though the BRB last night and I think I may have found our answer.

 

 

Universal Special Rules, pg 74 of the BRB:

 

"As this is just a summary, if any of the Codexes include one of these special rules and the rule is different, the one in the Codex takes precedence (representing how the general special rule applies to that specific race)."

 

Space Wolves Codex, pg. 27

 

"Behind Enemy Lines: If a Wolf Scout unit makes use of its ability to outflank, roll a dice when it enters play to see where it may be depolyed."

 

The FAQ says that," He can only join an outflanking unit if he has the ability to outflank because of the Saga of the Hunter".

 

So Saga allows him to join an outflanking unit. The unit outflanks BEL because the Codex takes precedence over the USR according to the BRB.

 

 

Spoken like a true rule lawyer!

[Wispy]

The thing about line of reasoning is Behind Enemy Lines is not our codex's version of outflank - we don't have a special version of the outflank USR, but rather a second rule that interacts with the outflank USR.

[SamaNagol]

And seeing as it isn't a USR, they don't lose it if an IC joins the unit. Their rule states that when Scouts outflank the unit rolls for OBEL instead of just usual table edges.

 

Now that it has been clarified that Saga of the Hunter allows ICs to outflank with Scouts, they can most certainly OBEL.

[Schertenleib]

I was looking though the BRB last night and I think I may have found our answer.

 

 

Universal Special Rules, pg 74 of the BRB:

 

"As this is just a summary, if any of the Codexes include one of these special rules and the rule is different, the one in the Codex takes precedence (representing how the general special rule applies to that specific race)."

 

Space Wolves Codex, pg. 27

 

"Behind Enemy Lines: If a Wolf Scout unit makes use of its ability to outflank, roll a dice when it enters play to see where it may be depolyed."

 

The FAQ says that," He can only join an outflanking unit if he has the ability to outflank because of the Saga of the Hunter".

 

So Saga allows him to join an outflanking unit. The unit outflanks BEL because the Codex takes precedence over the USR according to the BRB.

 

 

Spoken like a true rule lawyer!

 

No need to be rude. I'm just trying to help out.

[dizzy-xc]

I was looking though the BRB last night and I think I may have found our answer.

 

 

Universal Special Rules, pg 74 of the BRB:

 

"As this is just a summary, if any of the Codexes include one of these special rules and the rule is different, the one in the Codex takes precedence (representing how the general special rule applies to that specific race)."

 

Space Wolves Codex, pg. 27

 

"Behind Enemy Lines: If a Wolf Scout unit makes use of its ability to outflank, roll a dice when it enters play to see where it may be depolyed."

 

The FAQ says that," He can only join an outflanking unit if he has the ability to outflank because of the Saga of the Hunter".

 

So Saga allows him to join an outflanking unit. The unit outflanks BEL because the Codex takes precedence over the USR according to the BRB.

 

 

Spoken like a true rule lawyer!

 

No need to be rude. I'm just trying to help out.

 

 

Sorry, you took it the wrong way. I see your argument impervious to debate, as rock solid as the Fang itself. If someone argues against me, your logic will be cited. :D kudos.

[Schertenleib]

I see. Where I come from calling someone a rules lawyer falls under the heading of "Them thar's fightin words!"

 

Cheers