Space Wolves

[Grimtooth]

And it begs the question, why would the Emperor permit something quite so dangerous and untamed to exist?

 

An interesting question which is answered quite simply,

 

To take down another legion.

 

Here is some information for our newest aspirants and Blood Claws that have so recently joined our ranks.

 

1. When the Space Wolf Legion was created it was of course created using the genetic record of the lost Primarch Leman Russ. The very same genetic record that contains the very special and specific Canis Helix.

 

2. No other Primarch was given something "extra" in their genetic record and therefore was never passed down to their Legion when created.

 

3. The original Space Wolf Legion consisted of approx. ten thousand Space Wolves. It was only divided once to create the Wolfbrothers, which was a failure. That would leave approximately five thousand Space Wolves remaining in the now formed Space Wolves Chapter as opposed to the Codex Astartes chapters that only contain one thousand Space Marines.

 

4. Currently each Space Marine chapter, (with minor exception of some like the Blue Balanced Boy Scouts of the Guilliman), lends itself to some specialization on the field of battle. Within the much larger Space Wolves chapter, each company lends itself to some specialization on the field of battle.

 

5. Leman Russ and each Great Wolf since his disappearance has refused to bow down to the Codex Astartes thus breaking the above-mentioned all encompassing specialization.

 

Feels good to be the elite of the elite doesn't it brothers?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

just a quick question, where did you get the info on #3?

 

i have always wondered on the size of our legion, and would love any real info on the matter.

 

WLK

[Grimtooth]

just a quick question, where did you get the info on #3?

 

i have always wondered on the size of our legion, and would love any real info on the matter.

 

WLK

 

pg 6 of Codex: SM: Conquest of the Galaxy

 

Each of the original First Founding Legions were 10,000 Space Marines each. After the Horus Heresy, Guilliman wrote the Codex Astartes that declared that the remaining Legions be broken up in 1,000 strong Chapters.

 

pg 9 of Codex: SW: The Codex Astartes

 

The SW were only ever divided once that created the Wolfbrothers chapter which didn't go so well. So if the original Legion was approx. 10,000 Space Wolves and was only divided once, it would stand to reason that the remaining chapter would consist of 5,000 Space Wolves.

 

It would also stand to reason that since the Space Wolves were not present at the final Battle of Terra during the Horus Heresy, they did not suffer as many casualties as other chapters involved in that battle.

[Grimtooth]

It could be argued also that the attempt to divide the Space Wolves to create the Wolfbrothers chapter only consisted of taking 1,000 from the original 10,000 since per the Codex Astartes the new chapters would consist of only 1,000 Space Marines. That would leave the remaining total at 9,000 Space Wolves with no further attempts at Third Foundings or Fourth Foundings.

[wolf363839]

what about the casualties taken on prospero? (can't wait to read those 2 new books...) isn't the chapter only about 2000 strong currently?

[Grimtooth]

what about the casualties taken on prospero? (can't wait to read those 2 new books...) isn't the chapter only about 2000 strong currently?

 

It is written that the attack on Prospero by the Space Wolves took the Thousand Sons completely by surprise. The casualties would have been nowhere close to those on Terra.

 

Our codex is pretty tight on revealing numbers and the only one you do see is the reference to Ragnar's Company being only second to The Great Wolf in terms of number with almost two hundred battle-hardened warriors. I emboldened that reference since it would lend itself to include only his Wolf Guard, Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, and Wolf Scouts as his battle-hardened. That would not include his Lone Wolves or Blood Claws/Swiftclaws/Skyclaws.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

lets not forget about the Scouring, which was almost as devastating the the HH itself.

 

something tells me that the Wolves were not exactly forgiving to the Traitors after the near death of the Emperor.

 

WLK

[Beef]

YOu know athe Ultras no 250,000 according to the heresy vision artbooks, whilst most legions were 100,000 max. The Sallies being the smallest were only 30,000.

 

But in reality figures like this are virtually useless. As GW never stick with one bit of info Constantly contradicting itself.

 

Therefore who is to say how big the SW are now as a chapter. people have tried to work it out over the years to no avail. Figures range from 80 - 160 per great company but I dont believe that. Nor do I go for this new fluff about each company being a specialist at something, be it scouting, or ordanance or drop pods (although thats was well established about ragnar leading spearheads

 

Only size of a great company we know is Ragnars being over 200 strong

 

As for that qoute from the auther, I hold no credance to that, if the SW were built to take down another legion then the World Eaters were built to totally eradicate another legion.

[commander alexander]

You have to remember though that the World Eaters only became what they were and are after their primarch joined and had them installed with five extra sets of testicles in their head.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

just a quick question, where did you get the info on #3?

 

i have always wondered on the size of our legion, and would love any real info on the matter.

 

WLK

 

pg 6 of Codex: SM: Conquest of the Galaxy

 

Each of the original First Founding Legions were 10,000 Space Marines each. After the Horus Heresy, Guilliman wrote the Codex Astartes that declared that the remaining Legions be broken up in 1,000 strong Chapters.

 

pg 9 of Codex: SW: The Codex Astartes

 

The SW were only ever divided once that created the Wolfbrothers chapter which didn't go so well. So if the original Legion was approx. 10,000 Space Wolves and was only divided once, it would stand to reason that the remaining chapter would consist of 5,000 Space Wolves.

 

It would also stand to reason that since the Space Wolves were not present at the final Battle of Terra during the Horus Heresy, they did not suffer as many casualties as other chapters involved in that battle.

 

I'm not going to fight you to the death on this one, Brother Ramses, but I think that is not right.

 

That 'all Legions had 10K' seems very broad to me. EC didn't, that is just from the top of my head and instantly renders that statement untrue.

 

IF only had circa 3.5 K post Sige of Terra.

Salamanders didn't have enough to be split (I believe....?)

Ravenguard trialled the Weregeld to get numbers up.

 

I know the last two were hammered at Istvaan 5 and the IF were bashed during the SoT. But I don't think the SW went through the whole of the Crusade and Heresy eras without shrinking like the rest.

 

I think the battle-hardened warriors isn't counting just the cream but is hyperbole describing how good the SW are.

As far as I can remember SW Chapter has some 1.2 - 1.4 K Marines.

 

The SW Legion has been described as a smaller Legion (as were the Salamanders)

[Skirax]

I'm not going to fight you to the death on this one, Brother Ramses, but I think that is not right.

 

That 'all Legions had 10K' seems very broad to me. EC didn't, that is just from the top of my head and instantly renders that statement untrue.

 

IF only had circa 3.5 K post Sige of Terra.

Salamanders didn't have enough to be split (I believe....?)

Ravenguard trialled the Weregeld to get numbers up.

 

I know the last two were hammered at Istvaan 5 and the IF were bashed during the SoT. But I don't think the SW went through the whole of the Crusade and Heresy eras without shrinking like the rest.

 

I think the battle-hardened warriors isn't counting just the cream but is hyperbole describing how good the SW are.

As far as I can remember SW Chapter has some 1.2 - 1.4 K Marines.

 

The SW Legion has been described as a smaller Legion (as were the Salamanders)

Weregeld?

 

I also want to know how many Astartes we have in our glorious Chapter! Heck, if you think about it, in a one on one campaign, we would woop the Blue Boy Scout's behind!

[Night Runner]

And it begs the question, why would the Emperor permit something quite so dangerous and untamed to exist?

 

An interesting question which is answered quite simply,

 

To take down another legion.

 

Here is some information for our newest aspirants and Blood Claws that have so recently joined our ranks.

 

1. When the Space Wolf Legion was created it was of course created using the genetic record of the lost Primarch Leman Russ. The very same genetic record that contains the very special and specific Canis Helix.

 

2. No other Primarch was given something "extra" in their genetic record and therefore was never passed down to their Legion when created.

 

Feels good to be the elite of the elite doesn't it brothers?

I really do not agree with your assertion that the SW are the elite of the elite. I do not think they are better than the other First Founding Legions. They all had their strengths and weaknesses. If anything, the title of the elite of the elite would probably go to the Grey Knights and the Custodes. W.r.t what Dan Abnett said, that is just his take, his way of developing the story, which personally suits me fine, but it should not be taken as canon, just an interesting twist.

 

As regards point 2, you are also wrong. All primarchs were given something extra, Sangy had wings and physic attunement, Magnus was a cyclopean wizard giant etc...

[Oldenhaller]

Latest audiobook of the Ravenguard after the drop site massacres has Corax taking 80,000 to Istvaan and leaving one chapter behind on Deliverance

 

~O

[Death Wolf]

I thougth Sangy and Magnus only got their 'extra' stuff by mutation because they were exposed to the warp? As far as all the stuff I have read Russ was the only one to get a special gene-seed part, well not counting Angron's habit of 'playing' with his marines head.

 

Oh and Beef, the World Eaters were not created to utterly eradicate another legion, they were created to utterly eradicate everthing else :huh:

[nurglespuss]

And important to remember re: your point about them not bowing to the codex astartes...

 

Each 'great company' is essentially an autonomous chapter. So, its not one solid cohesive force.

[Quillen]

And so they did argue and beat each other about the head and neck.

 

Look We know the Primarch were found and then they recieved the Legion(s , yes an S cause there is some fluff saying a legion was 10k strong and some had 2 or 3. This fluf was never started well). Then the new recrutes came from their homeworld.

 

So Russ was found and the big'E said here boy is your legion. Which was stated in the fluff as being atleast 10k strong. Then the loyal retainers would be upgraded as best as they could to marine-ish standard. RUss house hold had all but like 24 of them die. So we know he had 10k plus a handful in the begining.

 

Then he waged war. And new recrutes came from Fenris not Earth. And in those battle he lost people but new recrutes joined him.

 

He went to Propero and laid ruin to it. And It was a bad fight all around. All the fluff says so till he broke Magus' back. And he slipped in the ground through magic and was wisked away.

 

Then he met up with Lion (I'm so Goth) El'Johnson, and they started towards Earth, but first Russ wanted to destroy a faction of the enemies forces somewhere. So they did but Lion whined about it alot. And they were late gettign to Earth and the big'E was mortally wounded. They cleaned house on Earth and set about chasing the left overs to the eye of terror destroying their home worlds one at a time.

 

That is what we know.

 

DO we now the number of Space Wolf troops? No. And we probly never will. We do no Ragnars is second biggest with over 200 battle hardened troops. IE these guys are tough. We also know there is more Grey Hunters then Blood claws, so there might be a few packs of blood claws, still it's not going to be over 300. So We got over 200 in one and the rest having less as you work your way down. So lets be generous and say 200 a great company and then times that by 13, cause the Wolf Lord has a company too along with all the Rune Priests and Wolf priests and IronPriests. Which gives us 2,600. That's about it.

 

We are the biggest orignal force left. Black Templars are bigger. But they are broken up and scattered all over the place. Salamanders and Raven Gaurd are small too, but not all that small.

 

 

 

Each Promarch had a special thing in their systems that started their process. Blood Angels has theirs in the Priests blood. SO they drink from a chalace to start the process. Each Primarch had one of these. Ours is the Wulf Helix or what ever. Nothing specail here all first founding chapters had this. It was how they were made. Each built off the genetic work of their Primarch. We are not special. Read the older fluff each starts that way.

 

As to the something extra it was argued. Some believe it was mutaition,. But if so it's off the original geneseed of the Primarch himself. Sang could see a bit into the future. He also got wings but lived on a radiated hellwhole of a world. Each had something about them that made them Unique in some way. Something that set them appart from each other. Yet not all of the had special features. Sang was probly mutaition. Which is fine cause it didn;t hurt him , just let him fly up and break a bloodletters back. lol

[antique_nova]

I was promised a character based on me for the prospero books and i haven't got it since games day ( they picked me and another ), talking about keeping promises. Looks like i will need to give them a chat :P.

thanks

antique_nova

[kittenofdeath]

Pre Prospero numbers: 10000

 

Assuming that both the thousand sons and the space wolves were able to keep their numbers up, and that each legion is a match for another, the losses at Prospero would have been high on both sides (SW had surprise, TS I assume had good defences, call it even) but, the space wolves had assistance from the sisters of silence, which would help with TS psychic shenanigans, and some custodians, who are apparently better than normal marines, So there's good odds that they came away from prospero without too many casualties.

 

Post Prospero estimation: 7000

 

The space wolves lucked out and avoided most of the big fights, but they didn't sit on their hands and do nothing either (cant remember the source, but I recall that they had a few space battles with someone, alpha legion to memory) so by the end of the siege of Terra and the mop up operations they would have lost men, but not as many as the legions on the front lines.

 

Post heresy estimation: 5500

 

they werent happy about it, but eventually they did split off one and only one chapter, I don't know the full story behind the wolf brothers, apart from the fact that they were either destroyed or disbanded (the latter could mean that the space wolf numbers stayed high) so lets just cut 1000 marines to be safe.

 

Post wolf brothers estimation: 4500

 

so now we're at the end of the known events, what could have happened in the 10000 years since then? obviously they take losses from time to time, all chapters would, its unavoidable, but all the other chapters keep their numbers up and they manage to have left overs to create new chapters, so I don't see how the Space wolves could have lost so much to be any less than 3000, even then they would have just lost 1500 marines, I haven't heard of the space wolves ever being crippled like that.

 

Current number estimation: 4000+

 

 

That's my interpretation anyway, please, if you see any holes in my logic tell me, I'd love your input.

[Haegr]

@ Marshall Wilhelm: Most legions were said to have numbered in the 10 thousand, but there was rumours of other legions being smaller and larger.

 

The reason also that the raven guard and sallies were so small in number is that they were drawn into a trap on the planet of Istvaan.

 

@ Night Runner: What I think he meant by 'No other primarch was given "extra" in their genetic record etc...' might of been just about the genetic records of the wolves themselves having the helix in their system, i dont know if he didnt mean the other legions didnt have other sorts of genetic alteration of mutation like said prior to me, Magnus had the mutation of a third eye, and Sanguinius had the mutation of 'angelic' wings and premanitions of the future.

 

Plus with the discusion of the space wolves have such and such numbers, the most common statement I had always read about was that most legions numbered in the 10,000, and when we were split into companies, majority of the chapter numbered from the numbers of 100 and 150 per company (not saying Ragnars and Logans are the same, im full well knowing they are above 200) but thats how that fluff got stuck into my head all these years.

 

Other legions weren't so lucky as us, they were split several or more times like the Blood Angels of Ultrasmurfs, but we were able to keep majority of our number. Other legions like the Black Templar as stated below from Quillen, the Black Templar have no home planet, and are highly mobile, they are always constantly on the move with their fleets and have an unknown number.

[antique_nova]

the black templars are not a legion, but their numbers are near a legion. they are a second founding chapter. i am sure you know that, but you may have typed it incorrectly. We do have certain companies in the SW chapter dissappearing, it's somewhere in the codex. Also none of you have mentioned Russ leaving with the 13th company which would of reduced the numbers alot more.

 

so from kittenofdeath's estimations.

 

Post wolf brothers estimation: 4500

 

then 4000

Deduct a company for Russ's mission ( which would of been quite big, say 1500 marines )

 

About 2500 marines now? Loosing a whole company in the unknown regions of the galaxy? well you would need a large force for that. say 200-300 marines atleast? Look up a story about marines being d befriended by a race and they let their guard down then realise that their hosts are something else and they are slaughtered.

 

Plus adding adding the great hunts which could case alot of casulties since they charge into any fray to find Russ which would minus us down another 200-300 atleast.

 

That puts us at roughly 1800-1900 roughly, whihc considering the codex says we have around 200-250 marines for the great wolf company and around the same for ragnar and that our other companies have abit more than 100. this estimate is about right.

 

thanks

antique_nova

[nurglespuss]

In other words =to or under chapter size for each great company.

 

Therefore, treat great companies just as chapters (which is what they are).

[kittenofdeath]

the black templars are not a legion, but their numbers are near a legion. they are a second founding chapter. i am sure you know that, but you may have typed it incorrectly. We do have certain companies in the SW chapter dissappearing, it's somewhere in the codex. Also none of you have mentioned Russ leaving with the 13th company which would of reduced the numbers alot more.

 

so from kittenofdeath's estimations.

 

Post wolf brothers estimation: 4500

 

then 4000

Deduct a company for Russ's mission ( which would of been quite big, say 1500 marines )

 

About 2500 marines now? Loosing a whole company in the unknown regions of the galaxy? well you would need a large force for that. say 200-300 marines atleast? Look up a story about marines being d befriended by a race and they let their guard down then realise that their hosts are something else and they are slaughtered.

 

Plus adding adding the great hunts which could case alot of casulties since they charge into any fray to find Russ which would minus us down another 200-300 atleast.

 

That puts us at roughly 1800-1900 roughly, whihc considering the codex says we have around 200-250 marines for the great wolf company and around the same for ragnar and that our other companies have abit more than 100. this estimate is about right.

 

thanks

antique_nova

 

gah! I knew I was forgetting something, dam 13th company ruining my post *shakes fist* but the 13th wouldnt have been 1500, the 13th was Russ's own wolf guard, id say 600 would be a stretch even. Also, isolated incedents where a single company is lost isnt crippling, theres instances of that happening all over the 41st milenium, things like that and the great hunt are ordinary combat losses by marine standards, admitedly the great hunts are a little unusual, but the losses wouldnt be that much higher than any other war they fight in.

[antique_nova]

Russ being Russ wouldn't take just 600 marines after seeing the devestation at terror and knowing that warp held unlimited surprised. is there any source for this force of 600 marines and the 13th company also being 600 marines. You also forgot to add the 100 marines that were lost to the guy who stole one of our ships he is the guy from the Badab crusade? Can't remember his name, but he's a traitor.

If you talking 600 marines anyway, that still leaves us with atleast 1000 marines unaccounted for. Whihc could suggest another chapter was created?

thanks

antique_nova

[kittenofdeath]

Russ being Russ wouldn't take just 600 marines after seeing the devestation at terror and knowing that warp held unlimited surprised. is there any source for this force of 600 marines and the 13th company also being 600 marines. You also forgot to add the 100 marines that were lost to the guy who stole one of our ships he is the guy from the Badab crusade? Can't remember his name, but he's a traitor.

If you talking 600 marines anyway, that still leaves us with atleast 1000 marines unaccounted for. Whihc could suggest another chapter was created?

thanks

antique_nova

 

things like Huron stealing a ship is another thing i write of as normal losses, traitor fleets have to come from somewhere, so im assuming its not an isolated incedent. and the 600 for russ's number is just a random number i picked from my brain, a more accurate number would be 307 (4000 divided by 13, rounded off) he only took his company with him after all. as for another chapter being made, there wasnt one, that's practicaly the only thing G dub has told us, so yeah, there are quite a few marines unaccounted for, which is exactly want leads to all the talk about the space wolves true numbers

[antique_nova]

each company had different numbers, due to their nature or being deployed in different zones. so it's not accurate to divide the legions like that.

thanks

antique_nova