Vanguard

[Tasche]

Ive never use a vanguard unit...wanting to see how well they perform against my tau friend...

 

from what ive heard, the best usage is to give them power weapons to cut cheese...but theyre so overly expensive and squishy...

[Koremu]

Don't give them Jump Packs, buy a Land Raider instead.

 

That's the only way I run them anyway. Heroic Intervention isn't worth the cost of the Jump Packs.

[Tasche]

Don't give them Jump Packs, buy a Land Raider instead.

 

That's the only way I run them anyway. Heroic Intervention isn't worth the cost of the Jump Packs.

 

so ive heard, but... with that in mind, why not just purchase a assault terminator squad for 200pts flat instead? way more survivability and cheeper in the long run.

[Koremu]

Don't give them Jump Packs, buy a Land Raider instead.

 

That's the only way I run them anyway. Heroic Intervention isn't worth the cost of the Jump Packs.

 

so ive heard, but... with that in mind, why not just purchase a assault terminator squad for 200pts flat instead? way more survivability and cheeper in the long run.

A Vanguard unit with a few Storm Shields and several spare bodies is more durable than the Terminator unit (twice as many wounds, if nothing else), and comes with a LOT more normal attacks.

 

Mostly I use mine for hunting Seer Councils, where S8 Power Weaponry is fairly irrelevant.

[Shadow Captain Corveus]

The words: DO NOT! spring to mind. :D (Major Points Drain for their Usefulness)

 

But if you really want to use them I'd suggest infiltrate them with a count-as Shrike, all with twin lightning claws, jump packs and meltabombs... Keep the unit down to 5 models to keep the cost down...

 

They should do the trick against fire warriors teams, make pretty short work of tanks and should be an effective solution against those pesky battlesuits...

[Brother Captain Josef]

If your gonna use them specifically against Tau Vanguards are gonna be overkill. A normal assault squad should pwn any of their squads. Give the sergeant a power fist for use against those suit things. A powerfist not power weapon as it can instagib and attacks last. Not usually a benefit but it does mean your normal marines attack first and can drop any shield drones that spoil all the fun before you go in for the S8 P/W facepalm of goodness.

[Gaz1858]

If your gonna use them specifically against Tau Vanguards are gonna be overkill. A normal assault squad should pwn any of their squads. Give the sergeant a power fist for use against those suit things. A powerfist not power weapon as it can instagib and attacks last. Not usually a benefit but it does mean your normal marines attack first and can drop any shield drones that spoil all the fun before you go in for the S8 P/W facepalm of goodness.

 

I agree with the Brother Captain here. Vanguard are wayyyyyyyyyy over priced and for the situation you are in i would take a normal unit of Assault Marines with a tooled up Sergeant. Arm him with either the PF as the Brother Sergeant suggested or should you feel it not neccessary maybe Twin Lightning Claws. Thats how i run mine. And itd be a heck of a lot cheaper than Vanguard allowing you to use the other points more effectively.

[Golindar]

I didn't know vanguard could be armed with storm shields. I don't have my codex with me to verify, but if they can gain a 3+ inv. save with a storm shield, then throw on a jump pack and they become a very mobile version of cc termies. Jumping from combat to combat absorbing pw blows. I think they only get combat shields though, for a 6++, which make the cc termies seem like a bargain at 40 pts per model compared to vanguard 35 pts plus upgrades.

[Koremu]

They can have Storm Shields. They can't have Combat Shields though.

[PhilArmstrong]

I plan on using them, mostly because I really liked the models and bought them. But I am converting them to all have Lightning Claws and a Storm Shield, except the Champion, who has a Relic Blade.

 

Expensive YES!

Fun YES!

[Golindar]

Some of the other veteran models such as the MKI look like they would make good vanguard veterans. I think there is a model with two LCs in that kit. Does the vanguard kit come with storm shields? Or do you have to pick them out of the assault terminator kit?

[darrkespur]

Some of the other veteran models such as the MKI look like they would make good vanguard veterans. I think there is a model with two LCs in that kit. Does the vanguard kit come with storm shields? Or do you have to pick them out of the assault terminator kit?

 

I'm rather obsessed with the idea at the moment to use Pedro Kantor + 10 Vanguard with three power fists, maybe a storm shield or two in a Land Raider (you should see 5 of them in the Golden Bolter, time permitting)

 

an AV14 box delivering 16 power fist and 35 normal attacks on the charge....

 

of course, it's 740 points for that without the storm shields (and with lightning claws on the sergeant and a multimelta on the LR) but still... carnage.

 

Most games that'll be overkill - 8 vanguard 2 powerfists and a land raider is 500 points though, which is a nice scary unit!

 

I think they are overpriced, although more so when they have jet packs than without. I just think they look a lot cooler than terminators, which is why i'm making a unit of them.

[Koremu]

I *think* I got my Storm Shields from the Command Squad sprue, but quote me not on that.

[JamesI]

There is a bits bag on GWs online store that has some thunder hammers and storm shields for sale. Might be a good source for shields.

[DerekLee688]

I say if this is a single game aginst the Tau, and you're not building a all comer list. I'd say vanguard are overkill. If you want to use them because of flavor/choice I don't have any constructive advice to give in that regard.

 

It's my understanding assault marines are sufficent units to use on IG or Tau.

[Koremu]

In all honesty, Tactical Marines are overkill against Tau. I still stand by my suggestion of bikes though. There's nothing quite like speed for dealing with the Tau.

[Tasche]

thanks for the replys guys, yah...i though so about the vanguard being overkill. a normal unit would be just as efficient.

 

well, im using some land speeder typhoons aswell....so instant kills on battlesuits since kraks are st8 ap3....no saves!

[thade]

I use vanguard quite a bit and I really enjoy them. The trick is to not kit them out such that they are a waste of points. Instead of giving every single member a power weapon, treat them like any other unit...for example, a unit of Devestators. You would typically have one vanilla marine (a marine with no upgrades) for each special weapon (upgraded marine) in the unit. These vanilla guys are ablative wounds.

 

So do the same with Vanguard. Slot half of the squad (or less) with a host of power weapons, maybe a power fist or hammer (and consider a relic blade, as they are nice and hard to get in your list otherwise), and the other half of the squad (or more) with no upgrades. The vanilla guys are there to take armor saves (and they do add to the wound output by a LOT since each guy has two base attacks + one offhand + one for a charge they out to get ;).

 

You can give two or three of the vanilla marines (i.e. the ones that do NOT have a power weapon or fist) storm shields so your unit can soak a few invuln only saves. Keep in mind do not put storm shields on anyone with power weapons...as you don't want them taking saves at all unless everyone without upgrades is dead. I'd rather sacrifice a vanilla marine to a power weapon then risk one of mine with a shield.

 

My vanguards run 8-10 strong and usually in a LR alongside an IC (like Calgar, or at least a Librarian)...note that if I run Calgar, I do not put any power fists or hammers into the Vanguard unit (and I run it "light" at 8 with a few power swords and two shields). Cassius (or even a normal chaplain) with such a unit cannot be underestimated. That is a LOT of attacks on the charge.

 

Yes, it's a bit expensive, but this single unit has tied up entire armies for me, allowing my tacticals and scouts to get on objectives and into good position. People either ignore it (which is a mistake) or focus a tremendous amount of resources on it (which is what you expect and want when fielding such a beast).

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Thade and Koremu are correct.

[Koremu]

You learn well, my apprentice ;)

[Mycroft Holmes]

Vanguard are excellent assault troops when left 'basic.' 20pts for 4 attacks on the charge.

 

THe problem comes when people try to make them "super amazing!" They don't get any kind of discount on gear so adding a number of options quickly makes them prohibitively expensive. Once you pass the 200pt level you have to start comparing them to A.Term, which is exactly what others have been saying.

 

I do think they have uses over A.Term though. Mixed with Khan/Pedro where their effects can work on nearly twice as many models/attacks. I personally like 8 vanguard, 3 power weapons (including sergeant) and Pedro. The squad is only 215 points, has 3 more wounds, benefits from the +1 slightly more (+5 vs +8) and has 12 more attacks base.

 

There are plenty of targets that fall more readily to that kind of squad than to fewer models with power weapons.

[KhorneHunter57x]

It appears I am in the minority here. I use my Vanguard as a Heroic Intervention squad with the following build:

Sgt. with Melta Bombs, Power Weapon, Jump Pack

1 Vet with Thunder Hammer, Jump Pack

3 Vets with Jump Packs

 

It is cheap enough that I won't cry if they die, but when they land they have always worked wonders for me by charging into Broadsides, Long Fangs, Dark Reapers, etc.

[Koremu]

It appears I am in the minority here. I use my Vanguard as a Heroic Intervention squad with the following build:

Sgt. with Melta Bombs, Power Weapon, Jump Pack

1 Vet with Thunder Hammer, Jump Pack

3 Vets with Jump Packs

 

It is cheap enough that I won't cry if they die, but when they land they have always worked wonders for me by charging into Broadsides, Long Fangs, Dark Reapers, etc.

Those kind of targets are better targetted by Combat Scouts in Land Speeder Storm IMO. You don't really need Vanguard to kill enemy Support Infantry.

[Grey Mage]

Take a note from Space Wolf Players- dont spend all your money on toys, the expense just isnt worth it in the long run.

 

Make your dream squad, with everything you could want in it, then cut the number of special things you took in half, decide if its still at all viable or not, and then trim anything that isnt absolutely needed from there, or switch a couple things around.

[Giga]

I run my vanguard in a land raider. I go 10 men, with thunder hammer on sergeant, power fist on one dude, and 3 storm shields. Usually like to give them a support HQ, like cassius.

 

Although I gotha say that, while they can be fun, vanguard really aren't cost-effective. You're much better off with assault termies, or even regular termies.