Vanguard

[Grey Mage]

You really dont think the extra options and extra attack are worth 2 pts a marine?

[Brother_Fatiswon]

Some of the other veteran models such as the MKI look like they would make good vanguard veterans. I think there is a model with two LCs in that kit. Does the vanguard kit come with storm shields? Or do you have to pick them out of the assault terminator kit?

 

I'm rather obsessed with the idea at the moment to use Pedro Kantor + 10 Vanguard with three power fists, maybe a storm shield or two in a Land Raider (you should see 5 of them in the Golden Bolter, time permitting)

 

an AV14 box delivering 16 power fist and 35 normal attacks on the charge....

 

of course, it's 740 points for that without the storm shields (and with lightning claws on the sergeant and a multimelta on the LR) but still... carnage.

 

Most games that'll be overkill - 8 vanguard 2 powerfists and a land raider is 500 points though, which is a nice scary unit!

 

I think they are overpriced, although more so when they have jet packs than without. I just think they look a lot cooler than terminators, which is why i'm making a unit of them.

 

i was going to say something, typed it out... and thought better of it. Go GOD SQUAD..... :cuss any one see that movie where UltraMan wrestle with godzilla for like 29 mintues?

[darrkespur]

Some of the other veteran models such as the MKI look like they would make good vanguard veterans. I think there is a model with two LCs in that kit. Does the vanguard kit come with storm shields? Or do you have to pick them out of the assault terminator kit?

 

I'm rather obsessed with the idea at the moment to use Pedro Kantor + 10 Vanguard with three power fists, maybe a storm shield or two in a Land Raider (you should see 5 of them in the Golden Bolter, time permitting)

 

an AV14 box delivering 16 power fist and 35 normal attacks on the charge....

 

of course, it's 740 points for that without the storm shields (and with lightning claws on the sergeant and a multimelta on the LR) but still... carnage.

 

Most games that'll be overkill - 8 vanguard 2 powerfists and a land raider is 500 points though, which is a nice scary unit!

 

I think they are overpriced, although more so when they have jet packs than without. I just think they look a lot cooler than terminators, which is why i'm making a unit of them.

 

i was going to say something, typed it out... and thought better of it. Go GOD SQUAD..... :cuss any one see that movie where UltraMan wrestle with godzilla for like 29 mintues?

 

Yeah, it's ridiculously overkill tactically and I think most games I won't take it. But it's just too fun not to at least make the models for it...

[Tasche]

You really dont think the extra options and extra attack are worth 2 pts a marine?

 

able to carry extra wargear and +2pts a unit is a great compromise, ide take that offer... still bummed out that theyre 3+ standard 1w marines though... Vets should atleast have the option for artificer armour but....they get storm shields!

[Giga]

You really dont think the extra options and extra attack are worth 2 pts a marine?

You mean 12 points, surely? You forget those jumppacks cost 10 points a piece. Also, we have to pay HQ-level prices for gear options that the vanguard can use nowhere near as well as HQs can.

 

The heart of the problem is; marines as they are just aren't a good assault army (especially compared to orks, or nids). This is an inherent disadvantage of all MEQ armies. Hence, to make them good in assault, their assault specialists either need to be very powerful, or they need to be cheap. Vanguard are neither, and therefore they're just a "fun unit", really.

[Justicar Valius]

Nobody takes them with jumpacks so it's 2 points a model

[Grey Mage]

You really dont think the extra options and extra attack are worth 2 pts a marine?

You mean 12 points, surely? You forget those jumppacks cost 10 points a piece. Also, we have to pay HQ-level prices for gear options that the vanguard can use nowhere near as well as HQs can.

 

The heart of the problem is; marines as they are just aren't a good assault army (especially compared to orks, or nids). This is an inherent disadvantage of all MEQ armies. Hence, to make them good in assault, their assault specialists either need to be very powerful, or they need to be cheap. Vanguard are neither, and therefore they're just a "fun unit", really.

I disagree, compared to a unit of JPless assault marines- wich are quite viable even at an increased price if you ask the local BA players, they are only 2pts more a model. Adding to many toys can quickly increase this, but they are already powerful with three attacks base and the possiblity for more. Example:

 

5 Vangaurd- Thunderhammer, Stormshield, Powerweapon, Razorback- 210pts. Makes a good counter-assault unit for a gunline and a capable command squad for more assault oriented players.

 

10 Vangaurd- Thunder Hammer, 2x Stormshield, 2x Powerweapon, Rhino- 335pts, hits like a ton of bricks and used properly it will get the charge off.

 

5 Vangaurd- Thunderhammer, 2xPowerfist, 2x Stormshield, 5x Jump Pack- 270pts, against the new tyranids this unit will save your arse from trygons, mawlocs and other big gribblies... good unit for a 1750 game. Whats it got over TH+SS terminators? Mobility for one, and its easier to hide these boys too. And you can bet your Landraider is the first thing being warp lanced for a 2+ pen and your terminators are going to be once again without a ride- so much for counter assault unit.

 

Or heck: 10 Vangurd- Thunderhammer, 2x PW, Rhino- 305pts, outflank them with khan let your rhino take a turn of shooting and then jump out and assault.

 

Or use the above monsterhunter squad, or something more inclined towards infantry, with a Teleport Homer mounted on some scout bikers who also boobytrapped the good cover areas, and get off a second turn assault with a scatterless deep strike.

 

Theres alot of intellegent ways to use them, but every battle report I see them doing badly in people throw them infront of heavy firepower after having tooled them up- they arent a Maul here like TH+SS TDA, theyre a Cavalry Saber- long reach, good cutting power, but more finesse. If you dont use that finnesse and good draw cut youll never get the kills you want.

[Tasche]

you must play them strategically, outflank your opponents. A good way to use them is to back up a spearhead where an oncomming force might cripple your own force, thus using Deep Strike/Heroic Intervention to route the enemy unit.

 

Ie. a drop pod unit of tactical squad is under pressure from oncomming firewarriors and snipers, tacticals have becomed pinned, vanguard unit Heroic Interventions one of the shooting unit to relieve pressure on the tacticals, thus commencing a counter assault.

 

I have never seen anyone stupid enough to charge assault marines into a firefight they cannot win, unless its intentional which i doubt ever happens. Points are points, use them effectively and efficiently.

[KhorneHunter57x]

I agree with Tasche. Vanguard are worth their points if you think about how to use them before jumping out of the Thunderhawk door to bring death to some xenos.

 

And for me, the extra 12 points is worth it when most of the time you can get into assault by Heroically Intervening with no chance of the enemy shooting you before you charge (save for Daemonhunter Inquisitor Retinues, but that falls under the "use them strategically" point that Tasche made). It's very useful against Tau, IG, and shooty Astartes, and it has it's uses against other armies.

 

Nobody takes them with jumpacks so it's 2 points a model

I take them with Jump Packs, but I am one of the few that does.

[Giga]

@ Grey Mage

 

All those things you mentioned there can be done better by other things. Vanguard, no matter how tooled up, die just as easily as tactical marines do. Their best save is 3+. Putting them in a razorback is also a pretty crappy deal when you have to pay 200-300 pts for 5 dudes and a 11 11 10 vehicle. In fact, I think I'd always rather just get a full 10 men unit of standard assault marines with powerfist and 2x flamers (costs 235 pts if I remember correctly).

 

Comparing vanguard to assault marines and saying they're only 2 pts more expensive is also quite wrong. You can't ignore the lack of the jumppack. Jumppackless assault marines still get a free rhino into the bargain. And you can't compare them with BA assault marines (jumppackless or otherwise) because those are troops, which automatically makes them far more worth their points.

 

But anyway;

5 Vangaurd- Thunderhammer, Stormshield, Powerweapon, Razorback- 210pts. Makes a good counter-assault unit for a gunline and a capable command squad for more assault oriented players.

A command squad with thunderhammer, stormshield, razorback, and company champion costs 215 pts, and they get FNP, WS5 power sword, and a combat shield into the bargain. They can also play better wound-allocation game.

 

But anyway, for a gunline counter-assault unit, I would always prefer to just get 5 tactical terminators with cyclone missile launcher, or a full assault squad with powerfist and dual flamers, or just stop messing around and get 5 th/ss termies in a godhammer LR (would actually enhance the gunline with some proper long-range shooting, too).

10 Vangaurd- Thunder Hammer, 2x Stormshield, 2x Powerweapon, Rhino- 335pts, hits like a ton of bricks and used properly it will get the charge off.

What does "used properly" means? A rhino is a 11 11 10 vehicle. It'll get shot at early and, chances are, it'll get stunned/immobilized/destroyed simply because it'll be high on your opponent's priority list - it's an obvious hammer unit, so target saturation simply won't be able to keep it safe. What you basically need to do with it is drive close to your opponent, huddle inside for a turn, and then come out and charge something.

 

In my book, that's a pretty inefficient way to use a 335 pts fast attack unit.

5 Vangaurd- Thunderhammer, 2xPowerfist, 2x Stormshield, 5x Jump Pack- 270pts, against the new tyranids this unit will save your arse from trygons, mawlocs and other big gribblies... good unit for a 1750 game. Whats it got over TH+SS terminators? Mobility for one, and its easier to hide these boys too. And you can bet your Landraider is the first thing being warp lanced for a 2+ pen and your terminators are going to be once again without a ride- so much for counter assault unit.

That's actually a really crappy unit. 5 jumppack guys with a 3+ save, and no shooting to speak off, at 270 pts (almost the price of 7 th/ss termies). Let's disregard that they the unit can be rendered inefficient by, say, a single rapid fire+flamer volley from a tactical squad, it's also extremely vulnerable to any kind of casual shooting that forces you to roll armor saves.

 

A razorback, for example, will be shooting at this unit, and on average making you roll 2 saves per turn. Or how about a dakkapred? In a unit of 5, a single lost dude automatically goes a long way towards making the unit inefficient, and these single losses are extremely easy to make with, as I said, casual shooting. Oh and, that same zoanthrope that can pwn my landraider can also just opt to use its ap3 blast psychic power on your jumppack vanguard.

 

Finally, that unit is only ever going to be efficient against big gribblies with small number of attacks and vehicles that can't fight back. Try to imagine it going against a trygon, with its 6 S6 attacks at high initiative on WS5 (statistically, it'll inflict 4 armor-ignoring wounds on your vanguard before they get to swing). Against infantry like CSM, SW, boyz, new hormagaunts, councils, it'll get slaughtered because it has a 3+ save and deals all its armor-ignoring attacks at I1. Th/ss termies at least have their 2+/3++ save to wither the storm.

[Koremu]

Frankly I usually avoid taking TH/SS Terminator Squads because they are too good for their points.

 

Vanguard's chief advantage lies in them having multiple spare wounds and spare attacks to go with their invulnerable saves. Putting a Vanguard unit into combat with not only the Trygon but also with the surrounding gaunt wave allows you to neutralise the effectively Trygon (6 attacks, 4 hits, 3 wounds, 1 fail invuln save) and concentrate on racking up a serious combat resolution against the Gaunts. Termis would be excellent at putting the Hammer down on the MC, but would suffer trying to deal with the gaunt flood in reasonable time.

[Giga]

Contrary to the popular belief, I don't think th/ss termies are underpriced. They're a 5 men unit that can't work without a LR, and that has its hard counter in cheap infantry such as ork boyz, hormagaunts, and small arms shooting. They fill an important niche in the vanilla army, but are in no way overpowered or underpriced.

 

In fact, cheap th/ss termies are the staple of vanilla 5th ed. There's a reason why SW th/ss termies cost much more. I'm willing to bet BA th/ss termies will also be considerably more expensive then vanilla.