Help me kill Eldar (they always kick my butt)

[thade]

It's getting a wee bit frustrating. At my best I have forced draws or only a win by one objective/point, at worst (and it feels more often) I am completely overrun by the third turn. I don't have this trouble with any other army, and often losing half of my force doesn't phase me as I've won with less (that's the way of the marines, no?).

 

My friend fields a Farseer very, very often, using Fortune (or something that gives every Eldar in a unit a re-rollable invulnerable save). It's usually with a team of Dire Avengers (which I can't assault as I lose one attack per round per model to some ability they have, and I can't outshoot because well they're shooty-focused Eldar), or Striking Scorpions (with some IC that has a power fist with five or six attacks). He has Eldar snipers (Rangers?) which are only marginally more effective than my own snipers (which I seldom use anymore). And he has a team of fire dragons in a wave serpent that is a huge thorn in my mechanized side. And a Fire Prism. And a Wraithlord (which I'm proud to say I've put the fear of the Emperor into in previous games with Lascannon devestators and snipers). He's also got banshees and a team of warp spiders.

 

Anyway, he's spent a great deal of his time on How-to-kill-Marine threads and despite my best efforts I have not improved as quickly as he has. I read through all of Grey Mage's huge thread on anti-Eldar tactics, but I'd like some direct advice based on what I have that I can field now. I could go one of three ways...

 

All shooty/mechanized: 2-3 dreadnoughts (MM, Assault Cannon, and MM venerable), two tac squads in Rhinos, a Vindicator, a Whirlwind, shooty terminators with Cyclone ML, five sniper scouts (I could also field Telion), and a squad of ML/Lascannon Devs. For ICs I can do a Calgar, a Librarian (in Terminator Armor or not), or almost any variant of Captain. I could also field Vulkan, though I don't have that many meltas. I have one Land Speeder with a MM/HB.

 

Assault-heavy: Vanguard in a Land Raider, easily 20 airborne assault marines, melee-scouts, Dreads, and tacs for ranged support, five Grey Knights in PA.

 

Some mix of the two.

 

He thrives on using Eldar shenanigans, and has proven very good at putting whatever highly specialized unit he has right into the situation it will be best in. (I learned early not to spread my forces out when fighting him; now I porcupine whenever I face him.)

 

So unsure am I of how to confront him that I don't really know what questions to ask here. Very often my guys are Pinned, or locked in melee with one of his ridiculous ICs, or...there's a lot going on.

 

Help! If you need more info from me that I didn't provide here, I'll be very happy to produce it for you.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Fortune does not give re-rollable invuls, just rerolls on saves.

 

His list?

 

Your list?

 

I'm inclined to say Null Zone, Tactical Terms or Rifledreads, Typhoons (get some, they're great all comers options), and Whirlies if he's slogging (which he seems to be) along with the usual MM Rhino bunkers.

Burn down the Dragons and prism early, WW and frag missiles en masse does the rest.

[Koremu]

Yeah, the Dire Avengers are by no means unbeatable in CC, even with Defend. They are still only S3 T3 4+ Sv

 

I assume the Exarch is using the Shimmershield to gain an invuln of... 5+ IIRC.

 

I'd bring along a Librarian in Terminator Armour with Null Zone and one of Might, Gate or Avenger, depending on how you want to play it. That gives you a chance to nullify Fortune with either the Psychic Hood or Null Zone, and if you get both off he has to re-roll successful invuln saves instead.

 

I also suggest buying some Sternguard. They are awesome against Eldar because they have an ammo type for every unit in the Eldar list.

[Grey Mage]

Your opponent fields a farseer near constantly because they are the best HQ that Eldar have to offer- cheap, effective, and simple.

 

Eldar are the Marines natural predator- he shouldnt have had to spend two hours in a how-to-kill marines thread if he has any sense at all.

 

That being said... heres a shameless self plug to my thread on killing eldar:

 

 

*I really need to get off my arse and finish that for the librarium*

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=165294

 

But frankly a Whirlwind kill 90% of his troops, missile launchers will pop his vehicles, and your main issues in the end would be the Banshees and the Warp Spiders.

 

I reccommend killing the banshees transport turn 1, and using Dreads on your flanks to cut down on his spiders abilities to come and go as they please.

[bystrom]

Telion can be used as well to target exarches, as these are the ones giving squads special abilities (like defend and carrying the shimmershield in the case of the dire avenger exarch), which seem to be annoying you greatly. Otherwise, as said, dire avengers aren't very frightening in assault, neither is the farseer. With one attack base, you get your armour save, you can cause instant death with a power fist (though, you'll need to get through his armour). Fire prisms can be quite difficult to destroy, stunning them gives you time to kill the rest of the army, but as long as it can move, it can also contest.

 

The striking scorpion IC is Kharandras (not sure if I got the spelling right), what he lacks is an invulnerable save. Knock three AP2 wounds off of him and he dies. Take out his bodyguard with plasma cannons, or the vindicator if possible (useful against spiders if you can get a shot off), or a sternguard squad. I've been really lucky and have taken him out with a scout squad (sergeant with power fist) once and once with a combat squad with a power weapon and flamer combo (lucky rapid-fire coupled with him rolling badly for his power fist coupled with me getting some hits and wounds with my power weapon sergeant), so I don't feel like I can give that many tips.

 

The fire dragons will more likely than not kill something, try to minimise the damage alternatively make sure the fire dragons only can do this once.

 

He thrives on using Eldar shenanigans, and has proven very good at putting whatever highly specialized unit he has right into the situation it will be best in.

Eldar live or die depending on if they get their specialists where they need to be. I'm actually going to link to a DG-tactica-WIP, as it does give some tips as well against the Eldar. Its at the bottom of the first post. It does focus against speed eldar and less against what would seem to be half-mechanised, but you might find some interesting points.

 

I read through all of Grey Mage's huge thread on anti-Eldar tactics, but I'd like some direct advice based on what I have that I can field now.

That being said... heres a shameless self plug to my thread on killing eldar:

 

 

*I really need to get off my arse and finish that for the librarium*

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=165294

Maybe you should (nudge, nudge, wink, wink :) )

[Brother_Fatiswon]

while it's not cheap on your checking account... (guess you could make em up from coke cans) have you thought about Drop poding your entire force? maybe refocus some assets into a command squad with x4 flamers. and maybe a couple 5man stern guard units with Heavy flamers. i can not say that i've read gray's how to kill em... but there is always tomorrow. but the old adage(sp) is: Assault the shooty stuff and shoot the choppy stuff.

 

if i know i'm going to be playing an Eldar trickster... like you do.. the two options i've had luck with in the past.. has been with allied united from either DH or WH... from WH: its a simple 20 Sob unit with the Inqusitor. (i use my bolter scouts as proxy made from my RTB001 marines and cata heads and legs) basic mob/horde tactics forces the issue of his line being over ran, or his upper class units beening killed by the rest of my forces. For DH, you have a couple of ops... either the double inqusitors (lord n reg) with either hoods and/or wards (+4 save vs psys power for the unit it's attacted to) coupled with DH "word of the emperor" if passed unit can not be assaulted. 2nd DH op is a couple of Null rods attacted to two fast killy Hth units. and the last Options for DH i like is the Radical Inquistor lord with Daemon host(s) 2 at the least, if not all 3. <IMHO

 

Another thing to do is make em prove those "special" rules.. Question ever rule he claims. It may add an hour, if not two to your over all game time. but so what. 1st he has to have his codex on hand. second, he has to let you read the rules as listed. so that way he'll never be able to "pull the cloak over your visor" again. If he doesn't like it, tough. Its part of playing eldar. or any rule heavy army. <IMHO

 

and last of all: a 5man Vanguard Jp'd deepstriking or TH/SS termicide Hunting for that farseer's pointy ears.... even if they dont him... they cause a great deal of early disruption.

IMHO

[terminatorAM]

ive frequently played against an eldar player using many of the same units youve mentioned. i cant say i have mastered how to beat him but our games are at equal parts win/tie/lose for me so i know many thing that work or dont. as you mentioned the best general tactic is to keep your army close together and deal w/ one problem at a time as they come at you since his specialist troops will ripe u apart if you go out on their own.

 

-dreadnoughts are good to have for some many reasons but present juicy targets: take 2 or more

-rhino bunkers will protect most of your troops from small weapons such as those of dire avengeres

-wraithlords will run away from TH/SS termies or Lysander by himself even, or use snipers/sternguard at range

-fire dragons are a HUGE pain in the backside: keep your LRs close to troops with meltas, they may not risk their squad and falcon to only kill one LR

-pile around objectives w/ multiple units: spiders, and all their vehicles are great at contesting objectives at the last minute, dont let them get all your units

[Grey Mage]

Yes Lexicanii, Im sorry. I give my word as a space wolf Ill post atleast one more segment up this weekend. By the way Ahriman is a fallen phoenix, and a horrible insult to Karandas name .

 

Well thade, after fumbling through your notes on your opponents list I believe hes using something very close to this:

 

Farseer- Guide- 75pts.

Karandas- 215pts.

 

10 Dire Avengers- Exarch- Shimmershield+Powerweapon, Defender, Bladestorm- 167pts.

5 Pathfinders- 120pts.

 

10 Fire Dragons- Exarch, Firepike- 180pts.

Waveserpent- Brightlances, Spiritstone- 140pts.

10 Striking Scorpions- 160pts.

10 Howling Banshees- Exarch, Executioner- 182pts.

 

Warp Spiders- 10 Warp Spiders- 220pts.

 

Wraithlord- Brightlance, 2x Flamers- 130pts.

Fire Prism- Holofield, Spiritstones- 160pts.

 

1749pts.

A couple upgrades here or there, this is what were looking at. So now that we know our foe, we can see how to defeat him

 

One thing right here- bring a whirlwind, if possible bring two. Why? Because theyll wipe those Rangers and Dire Avengers right off the board without any reall effort on your part- just point and shoot. At that point he has NO scoring units and has to either completely annihilate you or settle for a draw in 2/3 scenarios while being down two KPs in annihilation, with those banshees soon to follow. If you havent noticed both banshees and fire dragons have a 4+ save... so bombard them. Sure, those fire dragons will get a salo off when they disembark, and then you should be hitting them with a whirlwind template. Note also, Dire Avengers only get their invulnerable save in CC- it wont help vs templates at all.

 

As for fortune- remember, it doesnt grant an invulnerable save it just lets them reroll any save they do have. Make sure hes playing that correctly.

 

Missile Launchers should be in all of your tactical squads- theyre free, theyll wound a wraithlord on a 4+, and theyll take out his transport and fire prism in a timely fashion. Plasmarifles would be the best special weapon- they kill warp spiders and scorpions pretty well.

 

Speaking of wich, Karandas the Shadow Hunter is a pain in the arse, but hes nothing that a Captain cant handle in CC. Note that while he is fleet, scorpions are not... so he probly relies on infiltrate to get them into position. Use a small scout squad of your own to try and deny him a good spot to get close to your forces. Hes got eternal warrior, so a powerfist isnt nessecairily the way to go, but it will atleast wound him on a 2+.

 

In fact, sterngaurd in a DP would make a Wonderful counter unit to those scorpions, or the Warp Spiders- AP 3 Veangence rounds, rapid firing, against T3? Heck yes! And then it doesnt really matter where he deploys either unit, youll be able to pick and choose your battle there. Id pair them with a DPing Dreadnaught, so you can decide wich to bring down depending on the situation. Give said Dreadnaught a Heavy Flamer and a Multimelta for a good counter to most of his force.

 

So, to sum it up if I was a codex marine player facing this kind of list Id take this list, with an eye to all comers:

 

Librarian- Meltabombs, Force Dome, Avenger- 105pts.

 

10 Tacticals- ML, PG, PF, Rhino- 240pts.

10 Tacticals- ML, PG, PF, Rhino- 240pts.

10 Tacticals- ML, PG, PF, Rhino- 240pts.

5 Scouts- 4x Sniper Rifle, ML- 85pts.

 

10 Sterngaurd- Powerfist, 3xC-M, Drop Pod, 325pts.

Dreadnaught- MM, HF, EA, Drop Pod- 165pts.

 

5 Vangaurd- Thunderhammer, Storm Shield, Powerweapon, TLLC Razorback- 245pts.

 

Vindicator- Dozerblade- 120pts.

Whirlwind- 85pts.

1750pts. If your in fact playing 1850, you should consider a pair of MM attack bikes, or dropping a couple of options for another Dreadnaught.

 

Kestions?

[Bartali]

Farseer- Guide- 75pts.

Karandas- 215pts.

 

10 Dire Avengers- Exarch- Shimmershield+Powerweapon, Defender, Bladestorm- 167pts.

5 Pathfinders- 120pts.

 

10 Fire Dragons- Exarch, Firepike- 180pts.

Waveserpent- Brightlances, Spiritstone- 140pts.

10 Striking Scorpions- 160pts.

10 Howling Banshees- Exarch, Executioner- 182pts.

 

Warp Spiders- 10 Warp Spiders- 220pts.

 

Wraithlord- Brightlance, 2x Flamers- 130pts.

Fire Prism- Holofield, Spiritstones- 160pts.

 

1749pts.

 

If that's his list, it's a pretty poor Eldar one in my opinion. He only has two troop choices, and neither are mobile. Take out his troop choices in objective games, job done.

[thade]

Thanks, GM; that is very helpful.

 

His Dire Avengers were getting rerollable 4+ invulns in CC...I presume that is a correct use of Fortune?

 

I do have some marines I could counts-as Sternguard (even if they don't quite look fancy enough) and two plasma guns I can drop into my tac squads. Worth a go, I think.

 

@Bartali: His objective is never to take objectives, it is to scourge me from the board...which works with troops or no.

[Koremu]

His Dire Avengers were getting rerollable 4+ invulns in CC...I presume that is a correct use of Fortune?

No.

 

Fortune allows you to reroll failed saves of any type.

 

the Shimmershield grants a 5+ Invuln in CC only.

 

The Farseer will be the only model with a 4+ invuln.

 

He will be able to re-roll his 4+ armour saves for the non-PW wounds though.

 

Generally the best way to take out a fortuned invuln target is just to pile as many normal S4 attacks onto it as possible.

 

Dogpiling them with Assault Marines will work. Add a charlie for surety.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

As I said earlier in the thread:

Fortune does not give re-rollable invuls, just rerolls on saves.

[thade]

His Dire Avengers were getting rerollable 4+ invulns in CC...I presume that is a correct use of Fortune?

No.

 

Fortune allows you to reroll failed saves of any type.

 

It may be the case that I misunderstood what happened, or he may have made a mistake; I can look into that.

 

Dogpiling them with Assault Marines will work. Add a charlie for surety.

 

I presume "charlie" = either Chaplain or Powerfist? Those are very different things... :) I'm guessing the Chaplain. That I can do. Jumppack chaplains are nice and cheap.

[Koremu]

Charlie Chaplain... :P

[Grey Mage]

Scourging marines is something Eldar do well, as we have the ability to say "No, you dont get an armor save" to anything with the proper application of force. In fact, oddly enough my Eldar struggle most with Orks... anyways.

 

Make sure your opponent cracks his codex when he uses those psychic powers. Remember that a shimmershield is just a 5++ in CC. Im going to assume he also has a printed army list?

 

If you continue to have problems I suggest picking up a bike squad- hes got no Ranged AP 3 guns... no Dark Reapers, only one Prism... and bikes can hunt and destroy warp spiders quite handily by removing their two advantages- High strength weapons (6) and speed.

[thade]

I have biker scouts (not yet assembled) but no biker marines. Think those would do for now? (They'll also give me cluster mines, which look fun to play with.)

 

My rematch is Wednesday, so I have a few days to weigh what I have; I won't have time to assemble anything new for a few weeks though, with the semester starting up. I have what I have to work with for now.

[Koremu]

Yeah, Scout Bikers will be fine - Slightly less effective, but the ability to Infiltrate and Scout should mean that you can get a first turn charge off on a choice target.

[Grey Mage]

Take every Astartes Grenade Launcher you can get! Seriously, the things are golden.

[Koremu]

Take every Astartes Grenade Launcher you can get! Seriously, the things are golden.

True. Mostly because Krak Grenades will threaten Instant Death on the Farseer, but take away the Aspect Warriors saves. So he has to either risk his HQ, or get his bodyguard killed (if they are in cover use frag though)

[thade]

Take every Astartes Grenade Launcher you can get! Seriously, the things are golden.

True. Mostly because Krak Grenades will threaten Instant Death on the Farseer, but take away the Aspect Warriors saves. So he has to either risk his HQ, or get his bodyguard killed (if they are in cover use frag though)

 

Holy moly, I forgot all about those things! I've never used them before. @_@ Time to build me some bikes.

 

Also, he DOES have Dire Avengers in addition to all the other stuff; I forgot to list it. He fields then usually alternately with the banshees or scorpions (i.e. I've never seen ALL of the ...Aspects? Can't remember what they're called. But if we go to 2000 points instead of 1750, he may.)

[ShinyRhino]

I raninto a pair of Eldar lists at this weekend's tournament. They left me with a VERY bitter taste in my mouth.

Both lists were 100% mechanized via Wave Serpents. Both relied on Bladestorming Dire Avengers. Both had Eldrad Ultuan.

One was a more balanced list, with four squads of Dire Avengers in their Serpents, and then Eldrad with one squad, and Prince Yriel with another. A Fire Dragon squad rounded out the list.

The other list was disgusting. Eldrad, two Dire Avenger Squads, a 10-strong Warlock Seer Council, and a Fire Prism.

 

The thing I hated about the Eldar was the 5+ psychic powers for rerolls EVERY TURN. Eldrad was throwing out two Fortunes and a Doom or Guide each turn, targeting Wave Serpents for the Fortune. Rerollable 4+ cover saves on the tanks most turns. Or he'd Guide the squads inside the transports, move 12", pop out, and Bladestorm with rerolls to hit and then to wound (against my Doomed units).

Add in the powers from the Farseer in the Warlock council, and it just gets stupid and hard to remember. Even the Eldar player was having trouble remembering which of his five powers was on which unit each turn.

 

I was doing alright hitting and effecting the Serpents with my missile launchers, but the rerollable cover saves limited my ability to put anything sticky on them.

 

Return fire from the Serpents was a PITA. Twinlinked Brightlances, PLUS rerolling shuriken cannons into my units every turn is just infuriating.

 

I'm venting now, but I fuond Eldar to be very slippery, very confusing, and very annoying. I'd also recommend you keep a wary eye on Eldar players' measuring for their tanks' movement. Enforce the one-pivot-per-move rule, and make sure they're measuring from the same point on the tank both at the beginning and the end of the move.

 

Damned space elfs.

[Grey Mage]

Umm... shiny rhino, a vehicle can turn as often as it likes during its move... BRB pg. 57.

 

Though yeah... Id say to watch anyone for where they measure for their models in the move... it gets damn frustrating.

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

Well to contribute to the topic I'd say don't use any AV weapons over S8 or with the melta rule, eldar vehicles make every strike S8 max and 1D6 for pen always. So deck yourself out on ML's. Also a psychic hood can really mess up an Eldar players day. Try outflanking or infiltrating to throw a wild card at him, eldar don't adapt well to surprises, but will devour a static list. Also take note of what tank has what in it and focus fire to take down high priority targets. If you have three raiders you might want to kill those fire dragons for example.

[Grey Mage]

Note- Force Fields dont negate AP 1, just the 2d6 armor penetration.

[minigun762]

Note- Force Fields dont negate AP 1, just the 2d6 armor penetration.

 

I was just going to say that. It means that you can pretend your Meltagun or Multi-Melta is simply a Krak Missile with a better chance of killing the target if it hits.

 

Don't forget about the Autocannon, especially since the best you can hope to do alot of the times is glance it, Autocannons are a great way of tossing enough shots out there that something will stick.

 

EDIT: Also a Rifledread has nothing (extra) to fear from Brightlances because they're already AV12. Park it in cover and you have a durable unit that can reach past alot of the anti-tank weapons for Eldar.